Our best rolling 22

[CJMB]

Completely disagree and if you put a bit of thought into it you'd know the Honduran standoff is a far more accurate description.

...But does it have a soundtrack by Ennio Morricone?

 

[thylacine60]

Fair point......

 

[thylacine60]

 

[tarczonandjane]

I reckon Gibbons and Newnes are both best 22. Out of interest, where does this put me compared to the average Carlton big footy poster?

 

[Mondyboy]

Top 22: anyone who can stay on the park for more than 15 minutes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I reckon Gibbons and Newnes are both best 22. Out of interest, where does this put me compared to the average Carlton big footy poster?

 

[Macca43]

At least M43 is putting out a bit of reasoning behind his/her formerly pretty negative comments. I'm calling progress.

Negative? Didn’t realise not claiming we are certainties for finals was deemed negative.

Always happy to support my opinion, if you aren’t willing to support and defendant opinion it isn’t worth having.

 

[Macca43]

Macca43 you have been banging about sh*t for so long, I have forgotten what your point is.

It was pretty simple I posted a best 22 that had Murphy and Betts instead of Gibbons and Newnes and Arrow lost it.

 

[Metalcrusher]

It was pretty simple I posted a best 22 that had Murphy and Betts instead of Gibbons and Newnes and Arrow lost it.

That's one way to look at it .... if you sat back and looked objectively, it was like family feud.

 

[katmanblue]

he does so!

*Sew

 

[katmanblue]

.

 

[therubbernub]

People have given up discussing with you but yet people can't stop replying to my posts.

And it's not that I don't rate Gibbons, it is simply that I think we have a list chock full of players with higher ceilings, many with enough pre-seasons under their belts to be right in the window for a break out season. I also think that if the only substantial changes we make to our team from 2020 to 2021 is replace Simpson with Saad, Betts with Fogarty & Murphy with Williams there is no way we improve enough to catch the sides above us. The gap between us hasn't remained the same, they have improved so the amount we need to improve is greater.

Firstly You are ignoring the organic growth in our young players. There is improvement across the board probable with most players, and that includes our 2 co captains who had relative down years and would expect to perform at a much higher level in 21.



Secondly, you are also ignoring Marchbank, who I am tipping will make a big impact in 21.
Kemp , although injured, is another huge talent that you havent acknowledged.
Charlie, has been written off by many, and thats fair enough, but he is still not curtain material. If he is able to play he could be our most important player

 

[Macca43]

Firstly You are ignoring the organic growth in our young players. There is improvement across the board probable with most players, and that includes our 2 co captains who had relative down years and would expect to perform at a much higher level in 21.



Secondly, you are also ignoring Marchbank, who I am tipping will make a big impact in 21.
Kemp , although injured, is another huge talent that you havent acknowledged.
Charlie, has been written off by many, and thats fair enough, but he is still not curtain material. If he is able to play he could be our most important player

Not at all, I am counting on all those things to drive the changes in our best 22 required.

I am merely pointing out that unless those things happen we won’t go forward and if they do players like Newnes an Gibbons will liKelly make way.

 

[therubbernub]

One of my biggest regrets in life was when I was in Beijing there was this tiny dumpling stand with a massive queue of locals outside one of the palace's we visited and I didn't have time to line up because the tour bus was leaving. I will also wonder what was so good about those dumplings.

you probably dont want to know what was so "special"

 

[Earls Smother]

Not at all, I am counting on all those things to drive the changes in our best 22 required.

I am merely pointing out that unless those things happen we won’t go forward and if they do players like Newnes an Gibbons will liKelly make way.

I think you may have been a little harshly treated over recent pages.

We finished 11th and simply must have some "fringe" players that need to be upgraded, to get where we want to go. Not just a couple of older blokes either.

For comparisons sake, I was looking at the 1993 GF side and the changes we made to become Premiers in 1995. I know we are currently not a GF side, but it is interesting how many changes took place to a team that was already good enough to play in that grand final.

The '93 side had Athorn, Sholl, Heaver, Powell, Welsh, Gleeson and Alvin that were replaced. The last 2 were good players who age got the better of. It's easy to say now that the other 5 were no good, but they were good enough to play in a GF side, and likely had a lot of supporters at the time.

The '95 replacements were Campo, Manton, Pearce, Rice, Whitehead, Clape, Kouta and Dean (injured '93). A mixture of young talent and smart trade-ins. 3 were forwards and 3 were "fringe" given they were the selected interchange in the '95 flag. The backline and the spine were already settled by '93 which bears relevance to now.

In '95 the 19 players who played the most games for the year, all played in the GF. Manton (12 games) and Hogg (4), replacing Bond (15) and Mitchell (13) were the anomalies. The only reason I mention that, is because if you assume most games equals best 22, then 2020 is an interesting study.

Last year we had 17 players play at least 15 of the 17 games. The "most-played" 22 is as follows:

17 games: Weiters, Walsh, Simpson, Newnes, Murphy, Casboult, Cripps, Ed, Jones.
16 games: Doc, SPS, Plow, Setters.
15 games: Gibbo, Willo, Martin, Betts.
13 games: Pitto, Harry.
12 games: Cunners, Gov.
8 games: Fisher

Of that 22, 18 of them started in round 1. The other 4 in the round 1 side were Kreuzer, JSOS, Dow and Newman - all injured very early in the season.
Willo clearly replaced Newman and Pittonet clearly replaced Kreuze. Betts would have been in the round 1 side if not for a niggle (likely replacing Dow/Cunners/Gibbons???), as would Harry (who likely would have pushed out JSOS or Gov??). We don't know the answer to those questions, as JSOS and Dow made it easy for the selectors by getting injured.

The ridiculous consistency of selection meant that it was very hard to identify who the selectors believed to be the "fringe" players (thus giving BF posters plenty to argue about, with little factual support ).

We have 3 categories to draw our replacements from.
1) Williams, Saad, Fogarty. 2 are certainties and only Simmo has gone.
2) Developing young talent, including several high draft picks. I don't need to list them all.
3) Returning injured players. 5 very good players in JSOS, Newman, Marchbank, Charlie and Dow (who was picked round 1, but could be included in 2 above).

I tend to agree with Macca that it can't be just the old blokes in Murph and Betts who get pushed out. There's probably 10 or 11 who are 100% certainties barring injury or catastrophic form loss. The ability of the others to improve their current level to stay ahead of the chasing pack, will determine who stays and who falls away.

IMO the certainties would be Weiters, Walsh, Cripps, Ed, Jones, Doc, Plow, Martin, Harry, Saad and Williams (plus Charlie if fit). One of TDK or Pittonet obviously plays.

 

[Arr0w]

I think you may have been a little harshly treated over recent pages.

We finished 11th and simply must have some "fringe" players that need to be upgraded, to get where we want to go. Not just a couple of older blokes either.

For comparisons sake, I was looking at the 1993 GF side and the changes we made to become Premiers in 1995. I know we are currently not a GF side, but it is interesting how many changes took place to a team that was already good enough to play in that grand final.

The '93 side had Athorn, Sholl, Heaver, Powell, Welsh, Gleeson and Alvin that were replaced. The last 2 were good players who age got the better of. It's easy to say now that the other 5 were no good, but they were good enough to play in a GF side, and likely had a lot of supporters at the time.

The '95 replacements were Campo, Manton, Pearce, Rice, Whitehead, Clape, Kouta and Dean (injured '93). A mixture of young talent and smart trade-ins. 3 were forwards and 3 were "fringe" given they were the selected interchange in the '95 flag. The backline and the spine were already settled by '93 which bears relevance to now.

In '95 the 19 players who played the most games for the year, all played in the GF. Manton (12 games) and Hogg (4), replacing Bond (15) and Mitchell (13) were the anomalies. The only reason I mention that, is because if you assume most games equals best 22, then 2020 is an interesting study.

Last year we had 17 players play at least 15 of the 17 games. The "most-played" 22 is as follows:

17 games: Weiters, Walsh, Simpson, Newnes, Murphy, Casboult, Cripps, Ed, Jones.
16 games: Doc, SPS, Plow, Setters.
15 games: Gibbo, Willo, Martin, Betts.
13 games: Pitto, Harry.
12 games: Cunners, Gov.
8 games: Fisher

Of that 22, 18 of them started in round 1. The other 4 in the round 1 side were Kreuzer, JSOS, Dow and Newman - all injured very early in the season.
Willo clearly replaced Newman and Pittonet clearly replaced Kreuze. Betts would have been in the round 1 side if not for a niggle (likely replacing Dow/Cunners/Gibbons???), as would Harry (who likely would have pushed out JSOS or Gov??). We don't know the answer to those questions, as JSOS and Dow made it easy for the selectors by getting injured.

The ridiculous consistency of selection meant that it was very hard to identify who the selectors believed to be the "fringe" players (thus giving BF posters plenty to argue about, with little factual support ).

We have 3 categories to draw our replacements from.
1) Williams, Saad, Fogarty. 2 are certainties and only Simmo has gone.
2) Developing young talent, including several high draft picks. I don't need to list them all.
3) Returning injured players. 5 very good players in JSOS, Newman, Marchbank, Charlie and Dow (who was picked round 1, but could be included in 2 above).

I tend to agree with Macca that it can't be just the old blokes in Murph and Betts who get pushed out. There's probably 10 or 11 who are 100% certainties barring injury or catastrophic form loss. The ability of the others to improve their current level to stay ahead of the chasing pack, will determine who stays and who falls away.

IMO the certainties would be Weiters, Walsh, Cripps, Ed, Jones, Doc, Plow, Martin, Harry, Saad and Williams (plus Charlie if fit). One of TDK or Pittonet obviously plays.

You are missing one crucial point though, a claim that we won't play finals this year if we still have these footsoilders

That side in 93 made finals, in fact a GF, with so called footsoilders

The claim is so absurd, given every finals side since I can remember, has had these role players

 

[Macca43]

You are missing one crucial point though, a claim that we won't play finals this year if we still have these footsoilders

That side in 93 made finals, in fact a GF, with so called footsoilders

The claim is so absurd, given every finals side since I can remember, has had these role players

Ahh yes because I said ALL foot soldiers need to be pushed out didn’t I, hang on, didn’t I specifically say we would still have player likes Ed, Casboult etc that would be called foot soldiers, simply better quality and role specific foot soldiers? And didn’t we establish the foot soldiers you identified in the Lions side were pushed out over the 2018-2020 seasons and a lot are no longer on the Lions list?

If you are going to say a claim is absurd it is worthwhile getting the claim right.

BTW you never did answer how you get the the young developing players into the side by simply removing Betts, Murphy and other young players when you don’t have any of them in your side to begin with!

 

[thylacine60]

No Oppo Supporters - Thunderdome Debate Thread - Two Bluebaggers enter, two Bluebaggers leave (We're not savages you know)

Okay folks, it's trial time. We see a lot of arguments going on and on in a never ending loop until they start derailing threads. I'm all for some lengthy debates but we have to separate them out somehow. If we see this sort of thing happen, the participants may be invited into the...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Blue and Blue]

You are missing one crucial point though, a claim that we won't play finals this year if we still have these footsoilders

That side in 93 made finals, in fact a GF, with so called footsoilders

The claim is so absurd, given every finals side since I can remember, has had these role players

Only beaten by a team that cheated on the salary cap...........long before the injection regime and only a token penalty was given then also

 

[Arr0w]

Ahh yes because I said ALL foot soldiers need to be pushed out didn’t I, hang on, didn’t I specifically say we would still have player likes Ed, Casboult etc that would be called foot soldiers, simply better quality and role specific foot soldiers? And didn’t we establish the foot soldiers you identified in the Lions side were pushed out over the 2018-2020 seasons and a lot are no longer on the Lions list?

If you are going to say a claim is absurd it is worthwhile getting the claim right.

BTW you never did answer how you get the the young developing players into the side by simply removing Betts, Murphy and other young players when you don’t have any of them in your side to begin with!

Really going to enjoy this year and remind you of all your errors just like last year

Keep swimming upstream though

 

[Macca43]

Really going to enjoy this year and remind you of all your errors just like last year

Keep swimming upstream though

◄ Proverbs 24:17 ►

Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

 

[Arr0w]

* me

 

[Metalcrusher]

Not at all, I am counting on all those things to drive the changes in our best 22 required.

I am merely pointing out that unless those things happen we won’t go forward and if they do players like Newnes an Gibbons will liKelly make way.

so how many wins and final ladder finishing position?

 

[Metalcrusher]

fu** me

you do know you two are as stubborn as each other

 

[Macca43]

so how many wins and final ladder finishing position?

That is an incredibly tough question given the large quantity of players the could have breakout seasons or could continue to tease.

Best case scenario we bank wins against all the 7 teams we finished above last year which would be 9 wins (Freo and the Suns twice), we have 7 games against the teams that finished 6-10 and grab 4 of those then pinch a win or 2 in the 6 games we have against the top 5 gets us to 14 or 15 wins which would likely gets us to around 5th.

Of course we only beat 5 of the 7 teams below us in 2020, 4 of those by around a goal and I think the Suns and Dockers will be much improved in 2021 and of the teams from 5th to 10th we got just 1 win last year with only Collingwood looking to have gone backwards so a worse case scenario could be around the 6 or 7 wins and another bottom 6 finish.