Roast Our Clearance Work has been Really Poor in 1st 6 Rounds

Pie eyed

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Going this **** and still in the top 4 against opposition widely tipped to "expose" Collingwood pre-season?
I'll take it.
Lift your game 10% you lazy bastards.....
Top or nothing.
 

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TheGreatGrundy

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If Sier were fit and firing that would solve 80% of our problems immediately as we saw last year he was our best clearance player by a mile and he had no problems bursting out of packs.The only time we have a player doing that this year would be when De Goey goes in there with his extra size,Treloar has been okay but Sidebotham and Beams both need to lift they are senior players and more is needed from both too much is expected of Pendles and it is having it,s toll on him,how he played in the final qtr was how he has played his whole career but he cannot do it week in week out like he use to. Brown has been okay but he too small and like most young players is unreliable atm as is Daicos.

The way it looks atm we have overpaid for Beams and upset the applecart with Sier by bringing Beams back and all this talk of Wells is just that because he is 35 and Sidebotham,s form has deserted him now Beams is back.I would never drop Pendlebury but unless Beams and Sidebotham start putting their hands up they are on thin ice for me. We look so pedrestrian at times and unless we find our mojo on a consistent basis it will not happen this season,we have until rd 14 or 15 to get right and then I want the team settled on.
Good post. And Daicos is not even an option. I would probably give Brown another game or two before making the ultimate decision, but otherwise you pretty much summed it all up for me.
 

TheGreatGrundy

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Yes Saintly and Viewed were the ultimate winners :).

Arya Stark is also a winner. Fantastic role model for females that aspire to excellence as assassins.
You have a limited group of aspirants for your role model. Female assassins are not thick on the ground over which I walk
 

TheGreatGrundy

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I'm sure clubs would be more interested in % of stoppages won, rather than the raw data. The other factor is how big is the gap between top and bottom in terms of % won - I'd be willing to bet that it's pretty small.

I do think we currently lack strength and blokes with an explosive first couple of steps in our stoppage group. Obviously Degoey could help change this, but we lose too much up forward - I also think we lose a bit in transition, because the other mids are very very good at transitioning the footy and I'm yet to really see this from Degoey. Hopefully Sier can come good and rectify this without us losing too much in transition. I personally think that Sier's pre-injury issues this year are because he's been asked to improve his spread and transition game and he's getting lost because he doesn't know where to run. As good as he was around the contest last year, he didn't play much of a role in transitioning the footy. At the end of the day we may have been beaten around stoppage in the Grand Final, but the main reason why we aren't the reigning premiers is because we couldn't transition the footy - hence the recruitment of Beams.
Fair point but where do we actually get to witness whether he knows where to run when we don't see him run at all?!
 

doppleganger

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The stats make some kind of sense really.. we are number 1 in uncontested marks and uncontested possessions meaning we keep the play flowing leading to less stoppages in our games meaning less clearance numbers. Are we 18th for the amount of stoppages in our games?

We obviously have had some issues with clearances but the numbers have generally been close so I don't think we are the 2nd worst clearance team, I think our numbers are lower because the amount of stoppages to get a clearance are lower... due to us maintaining possession of the ball.
Bingo!!

We are 2nd best in terms of opposition clearances per game, only the Dogs have allowed less clearances to the opposition.

We are trying to implement a keepings off style of football, and also not scoring heavily...thus our overall stoppage numbers are down.

We are mid table for clearance differential, being a breakeven team. Our overall clearance differential for the season is -4...no biggie.
 

sirlothie

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Bingo!!

We are 2nd best in terms of opposition clearances per game, only the Dogs have allowed less clearances to the opposition.

We are trying to implement a keepings off style of football, and also not scoring heavily...thus our overall stoppage numbers are down.

We are mid table for clearance differential, being a breakeven team. Our overall clearance differential for the season is -4...no biggie.
I thought it didn't add up, I knew we weren't that bad at stoppages as even if we lost in each game it wasn't by a big margin so I didn't know how that made us 17th in the comp at it.. it's a flawed stat. It also shows Grundy's dominance at stoppages with the amount he wins right up there with the best in the league despite having less stoppages to compete at.

The differential only being -4 for the season despite obviously not gelling that well shows that when we do click and work together in there better we will be right up there with the best of them, it's just a matter of time I think, our ruck and mid combination is too good for it not to show up statistically sooner or later. I think they are underperforming but still pretty much breaking even.
 

sr36

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Fair point but where do we actually get to witness whether he knows where to run when we don't see him run at all?!
That's just my personal theory based on very flimsy reasoning. I do think he's currently injured and will show the VFL coaches if he's learnt, when he returns to fitness.
 

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doppleganger

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I thought it didn't add up, I knew we weren't that bad at stoppages as even if we lost in each game it wasn't by a big margin so I didn't know how that made us 17th in the comp at it.. it's a flawed stat. It also shows Grundy's dominance at stoppages with the amount he wins right up there with the best in the league despite having less stoppages to compete at.

The differential only being -4 for the season despite obviously not gelling that well shows that when we do click and work together in there better we will be right up there with the best of them, it's just a matter of time I think, our ruck and mid combination is too good for it not to show up statistically sooner or later. I think they are underperforming but still pretty much breaking even.
Yep, and I think we lost clearances in second half on ANZAC by a dozen. This early in the season, a **** half like that really impacts the numbers.

But anyway the ‘clearance’ is only a small part of the overall midfield and ruck game.

A guy like Beams is top15 in the league for score involvements, and the uniqueness of Grundy is how great he is in general play compared to other rucks.

There is room for improvement, but a better view is to reference the differential not the overall numbers, as we aren’t playing a stoppage heavy game so far.
 

sirlothie

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This may read naive but what exactly does a player need to do to be credited for a 'clearance'?
"A clearance is when a player 'clears' the ball out of a stoppage situation - ball-up or boundary throw in; whether it be to the advantage of their own team or the opposition. Either way, it is a clearance because the ball has been cleared out of the crowded area that is a stoppage"


I always thought it was just credited to the person who got the first kick or handball away after a ball up or boundary throw in... although if it's just a squeezed handball that goes nowhere I don't know if that is counted as a clearance and maybe noone gets a clearance until there is an effective kick or handball out of the congestion, but whether it goes to their team or the opponent doesn't matter, it's still a clearance.
 

Maggie5

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"A clearance is when a player 'clears' the ball out of a stoppage situation - ball-up or boundary throw in; whether it be to the advantage of their own team or the opposition. Either way, it is a clearance because the ball has been cleared out of the crowded area that is a stoppage"


I always thought it was just credited to the person who got the first kick or handball away after a ball up or boundary throw in... although if it's just a squeezed handball that goes nowhere I don't know if that is counted as a clearance and maybe noone gets a clearance until there is an effective kick or handball out of the congestion, but whether it goes to their team or the opponent doesn't matter, it's still a clearance.
Thanks, then I am not sure that I would put that much weight on those stats as often they do that only for another immediate ball up in many occasions.
 
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76woodenspooners

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"A clearance is when a player 'clears' the ball out of a stoppage situation - ball-up or boundary throw in; whether it be to the advantage of their own team or the opposition. Either way, it is a clearance because the ball has been cleared out of the crowded area that is a stoppage"
Isn’t it a kinda meaningless stat if it doesn’t differentiate whether the action is to the advantage of one’s own team or to the opposition?

You could have two players who average 12 clearances a game - but it’s a very different thing if one player is getting it to his own team’s advantage, and the other is getting it to the opposition’s advantage.
 

sirlothie

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Isn’t a kinda meaningless stat if it doesn’t differentiate whether the action is to the advantage of one’s own team or to the opposition?

You could have two players who average 12 clearances a game - but it’s a very different thing if one player is getting to his own team’s advantage, and the other is getting it to the opposition’s advantage.
I don't mean to pin it solely on Treloar as I know many others do it but 'stat happy' mids often grab it from a stoppage and kick blindly for 20 metres in their direction I guess to be credited with the clearance but it's a raffle as to what happens from there... if it goes directly to the opposition for an easy mark, it probably shouldn't be credited with a 'positive' stat... should be a clearance and a turnover in one maybe.
 

76woodenspooners

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I don't mean to pin it solely on Treloar as I know many others do it but 'stat happy' mids often grab it from a stoppage and kick blindly for 20 metres in their direction I guess to be credited with the clearance but it's a raffle as to what happens from there... if it goes directly to the opposition for an easy mark, it probably shouldn't be credited with a 'positive' stat... should be a clearance and a turnover in one maybe.
+ I’m guessing teams would rather the ball NOT be cleared than have it turned over to the opposition.
 

sr36

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Yep, and I think we lost clearances in second half on ANZAC by a dozen. This early in the season, a **** half like that really impacts the numbers.

But anyway the ‘clearance’ is only a small part of the overall midfield and ruck game.

A guy like Beams is top15 in the league for score involvements, and the uniqueness of Grundy is how great he is in general play compared to other rucks.

There is room for improvement, but a better view is to reference the differential not the overall numbers, as we aren’t playing a stoppage heavy game so far.
I'm curious as to the percentage won and how it compares between the best and worst stoppage winning teams, because I suspect there isn't much of a gap. Any idea?
 

sr36

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I don't mean to pin it solely on Treloar as I know many others do it but 'stat happy' mids often grab it from a stoppage and kick blindly for 20 metres in their direction I guess to be credited with the clearance but it's a raffle as to what happens from there... if it goes directly to the opposition for an easy mark, it probably shouldn't be credited with a 'positive' stat... should be a clearance and a turnover in one maybe.
I'm not sure if it as about being stat happy, it's a pretty instinctual thing that you learn to do as a kid - a bit like the blind hack for territory in defence. I think it's more to do with not having had the habits you learned as a kid trained out of you yet. Beams used to be a shocker in this regard, but not so much anymore.
 

sirlothie

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+ I’m guessing teams would rather the ball NOT be cleared than have it turned over to the opposition.
It's a crucial fight at a stoppage because with the way teams set up now and their skills once a team gains control of the ball likely it will lead to them generating a scoring shot. I think coaches would rather see the ball held in for yet another stoppage if it can't be cleared to advantage rather than indiscriminately kicked onto the chest of an opponent. I for one am certainly pissed when I see a blind kick out of a stoppage and reckon coach's don't like it either but it could also be an attempt not to get pinned holding the ball which they are pretty hot on these days so I guess a blind kick is sometimes necessary.

Clearances are given a lot more weight than they are worth for sure when they don't actually have to be a positive stat to advantage. Any old scruffy kick out of the pack that goes 5 metres to nobody could be classed as a clearance. You can tell who the best players are though, the ones who can create something coming out of a clearance, think Judd or Ablett for example. Their clearance which sets the team off and running is worth the same as a blind dinky chip kick that turns it over...
 

sirlothie

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I'm not sure if it as about being stat happy, it's a pretty instinctual thing that you learn to do as a kid - a bit like the blind hack for territory in defence. I think it's more to do with not having had the habits you learned as a kid trained out of you yet. Beams used to be a shocker in this regard, but not so much anymore.
We looked our best last year when we did a bunch of pressured handballs to each other from clearances until eventually one found a man who was loose and he could run forward and launch an attack. Could be 5 or 6 handballs until somebody actually clears the area. I think that is what is trained into them is under pressure look for a short handball option in better position than you, if you have the time that is. That's the best way to get an effective clearance I reckon, unless you are picked out totally in the clear by Grundy a kick directly out of a stoppage is usually dangerous as you don't have time to spot up a target. Unless it's the perfect clearance where the receiver is on the move and can burst out of the congestion which doesn't happen much. Handballing their way out of it is the safest and can lead to an effective clearing kick more often.
 

sr36

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We looked our best last year when we did a bunch of pressured handballs to each other from clearances until eventually one found a man who was loose and he could run forward and launch an attack. Could be 5 or 6 handballs until somebody actually clears the area. I think that is what is trained into them is under pressure look for a short handball option in better position than you, if you have the time that is. That's the best way to get an effective clearance I reckon, unless you are picked out totally in the clear by Grundy a kick directly out of a stoppage is usually dangerous as you don't have time to spot up a target. Unless it's the perfect clearance where the receiver is on the move and can burst out of the congestion which doesn't happen much. Handballing their way out of it is the safest and can lead to an effective clearing kick more often.
I reckon just smashing it forward can work from a centre bounce now that there isn't loose men in defence, just got to make sure your forwards provide a contest.
 

76woodenspooners

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I think coaches would rather see the ball held in for yet another stoppage if it can't be cleared to advantage rather than indiscriminately kicked onto the chest of an opponent.
A stoppage should largely be a set play. A clearance player should know exactly where the help is - they be able to close their eyes and throw the ball on the boot and know that a team-mate will be roughly at the fall of where they’ve directed the ball and that worst case they kick it to a contest.

I for one am certainly pissed when I see a blind kick out of a stoppage and reckon coach's don't like it either ...
Are you pissed that the player has kicked it blindly out of a stoppage? Or are you pissed that an outlet player isn’t where he should have been?

That’s hard to judge by anyone but the coaches.

Stoppages often don’t leave any time for clearance players to think. Clearance players need to trust that the help will be at the agreed location. Best-case a clearance becomes a clearance to advantage, worse-case the footy goes to another contest.
 

sirlothie

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A stoppage should largely be a set play. A clearance player should know exactly where the help is - they be able to close their eyes and throw the ball on the boot and know that a team-mate will be roughly at the fall of where they’ve directed the ball and that worst case they kick it to a contest.



Are you pissed that the player has kicked it blindly out of a stoppage? Or are you pissed that an outlet player isn’t where he should have been?

That’s hard to judge by anyone but the coaches.

Stoppages often don’t leave any time for clearance players to think. Clearance players need to trust that the help will be at the agreed location. Best-case a clearance becomes a clearance to advantage, worse-case the footy goes to another contest.
I get annoyed when the player has more time than he realises and seems to hack it out indiscriminately instead of finding someone close in a better position to handball to. To me it seems those quick kicks out of packs end up more in the hands of the opposition setting up behind the play half a kick away waiting for it as part of their zone. I don't mind it if the player is red hot though as he has little other option in that case.
 
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