Roast Our Clearance Work has been Really Poor in 1st 6 Rounds

76woodenspooners

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I get annoyed when the player has more time than he realises and seems to hack it out indiscriminately instead of finding someone close in a better position to handball to. To me it seems those quick kicks out of packs end up more in the hands of the opposition setting up behind the play half a kick away waiting for it as part of their zone. I don't mind it if the player is red hot though as he has little other option in that case.
I’d say that mostly happens in the backline when a player feels hot and just wants to kick the footy out of there. They **never** kick it to the corridor, they **always** kick it in the direction of just inside of the boundary.

Sure, we can camp a forward or two there, and we usually do - but they will typically be outnumbered by opposition.

It’s probably one of those situations where the coaches consider it to be the least worst option. A hot player getting pinged in the backline isn’t good. A player missing a short pass in the backline isn’t good. A player kicking the ball wildly to the corridor isn’t good.

Booting the ball in the direction of the boundary is probably the safest option - even if that does mean that the footy gets marked uncontested by the opposition 65 meters out from goal.
 

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doppleganger

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"A clearance is when a player 'clears' the ball out of a stoppage situation - ball-up or boundary throw in; whether it be to the advantage of their own team or the opposition. Either way, it is a clearance because the ball has been cleared out of the crowded area that is a stoppage"


I always thought it was just credited to the person who got the first kick or handball away after a ball up or boundary throw in... although if it's just a squeezed handball that goes nowhere I don't know if that is counted as a clearance and maybe noone gets a clearance until there is an effective kick or handball out of the congestion, but whether it goes to their team or the opponent doesn't matter, it's still a clearance.
You are basically on the money, although you don’t have to have an effective disposal for it to be counted as a clearance, as obviously if you kick the ball directly to the opposition it isn’t graded as an ‘effective’ kick...but it can still be a clearance.

And yes, if there is a secondary stoppage, there was no clearance, but players may be credited with hand balls and there will be a player who wins ‘first possession’.
 

doppleganger

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I don't mean to pin it solely on Treloar as I know many others do it but 'stat happy' mids often grab it from a stoppage and kick blindly for 20 metres in their direction I guess to be credited with the clearance but it's a raffle as to what happens from there... if it goes directly to the opposition for an easy mark, it probably shouldn't be credited with a 'positive' stat... should be a clearance and a turnover in one maybe.
There is a bit of ambiguity in relation to the clearance sometimes, and there are instances when a ball is fumbled and clearly leaves the stoppage without a clearance being paid.

The decision as to whether the ball is cleared from the area can also be ambiguous, since a team is generally required to have had control of the ball before a clearance has been paid. Situations do occur where a team fumbles the ball continuously, with the ball leaving the stoppage area, but no clearance is paid, or the clearance is paid to the

They classify each possession, and then whether they get a disposal, and whether it changes zones on the ground etc.

From a centre bounce they record which players are in the square
Hit out result
Was it to advantage or sharked
Was there a gather from hit out
Who takes First Possession, They are credited with chain launch
Then off to disposal, and a flag of clearance if it judged as clearing stoppag, it may also be an inside 50, and an ineffective kick.

People assume a ‘clearance’ to be something positive, not necessarily the case...Hawthorn sides during three peat often lost clearances.
 

jackcass

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Reckon this thread is a little OTT. Here are some stats that might paint an alternate view.
Beams has a career avg of 4.56 clearances per game. This year, he is 21 from 5 games which comes in at, you guessed it, 4.2. That is less than 2 clearances over 5 games behind his career average. Hardly a reason to panic. And at a guess, he may have been at less stoppages per game this season?
Our relative centre clearances to around the ground clearances have been superior this year, ie. relative to the opposition, we have been better at the former rather than the latter. This may go against the "we need mid-field bulls" theory?
Winning hitouts is one thing, hitouts to advantage then onto a clearance are far below that as a percentage. This is perversely the case with a truly dominant ruckman as the opposition midfielders expect their man not to win the tap.
We are currently 4-2 with a % of 122 after having gone up against 3 very good clearance sides, Geelong, WC and Richmond - and Essendon who now look the goods in that department. Things are going ok.
And TD, sorry, but calling for Wills as a solution is fanciful. His key stat is 6 career games, turning 26 in May.
As for our midfield being the best ever, I think it was Matthew Lloyd who came up with that one? My stat on him is that he may be thicker than two fat Tasmanians.
I think you're under-selling how thick Lloyd is.
 

jackcass

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Do you really believe that Sier was not our best clearance player from the time he was picked in the 2nd half of last season maybe not a mile but a definite 1500mtrs go back and review the games and then tell me I am seeing thing,the only other player to have that sort of dynamic effect was De Goey in the QB game.You also asked me what numbers I would like to see from Sidebotham and Beams it may not be theg numbers per se but effectiveness,Sidey only really has the Richmond game where he has played well this season sure he may be getting 23 or 24 touches and they have been underwhelming the same applies to Beams he had only 1 decent match so far.Grundy has been the dominant big man in every match he has played and it seems like unless he gets the clearance also we do not get 1 st use of the ball.L have never been in favour of bringing Beams back and if It means seeing less of Sier and actually losing him Iwould think it is a very poor decision.
Depends on how you're measuring it.

On raw numbers, 2nd half of the season Pendles has him covered. Sier managed a couple of games where he got 5 clearances, a couple of 6's, and a season high 7 (yes, I know those figures are on reduced TOG%). Pendles over the same period had 4 games of 8+ including 3x 10+ games and a season high 13. Treloar wasn't really in the picture over that same period.

If you're looking at cleanliness of exit then Sier likely had them covered. But you're comparing a new kid given a lot more freedom against 1 of the most heavily tagged players in our team so you'd expect that.

The test for Sier was always going to be how he performed in 2019 with the extra attention he'd most likely attract. Form and injury haven't allowed that.
 

jackcass

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It would be worth occasionally having both Cox and Grundy in the centre square with Cox taking the tap.
I'm not sure Grundy's clearance work to another ruckman would be as effective as Grundy following up upon his own ruck work. When he's following up his own work he becomes that extra mid which is a bit different from expecting him to play like a mid.
 

jackcass

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Grundy's tap work is not great. He gets plenty of taps but the % that are realy to the advantage of a moving mid is small. Grundy needs to better direct his taps and the mids need to back him and be moving rather than stationary. Chnage this and we will be a hell of a lot more effective. IMO this is the difference between being an also ran and a very big flag chance. We don't have the pace or footskills to counter attack effectively often enough. Better clearnace work eases the burden down back and opens the forward opportunities were we do have mobile talent.
Cited elsewhere that Grundy is top 3 league wide for average taps to advantage per game.
 

jackcass

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Fair point but where do we actually get to witness whether he knows where to run when we don't see him run at all?!
Sier spent a lot of time running to where the ball ain't in the limited VFL I've seen him play so obviously he's still got a bit of learning to do. If he can start to have an impact at VFL level then obviously that'll suggest greater capacity to do the same at senior level.
 

MarkT2

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Cited elsewhere that Grundy is top 3 league wide for average taps to advantage per game.
Maybe but that isn't exactly what I referred to. A tap to a mid at his feet who is surrounded by opposition is technically to advantage but practiaclly useless. There is also a difference between centre bounce and around the ground/boundry impact. The former having significant scoring potential. I don't look at stats as much as the optics.

Grundy and our midfield have the capacity to be a great effective clearance combination but it just isn't working as well as it could. Grundy is young in ruck terms and will get better but the mids also have to position better and be on the move more which means they have to back Grundy.

I thought the PF was a perfect example of where they backed the ruck to beat his opponent and positioned for the win. Be concervative agianst the likes Rydey, Natanui, Gawn and Goldstein but be more agressive against the rest would be a good start.
 

magpiewarrior

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Premiership sides rarely set the world on fire in the 1st Q of the season, they peak when it really matters. 4 & 2 is a solid start, we’ve got 4 key players that were not involved last year. Beams, Roughhead, Elliot and Moore, whilst all great players, all need to gel with our game plan/style and that will come It’s early days (in the season) give it time.
 

loki04

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There is a bit of ambiguity in relation to the clearance sometimes, and there are instances when a ball is fumbled and clearly leaves the stoppage without a clearance being paid.

The decision as to whether the ball is cleared from the area can also be ambiguous, since a team is generally required to have had control of the ball before a clearance has been paid. Situations do occur where a team fumbles the ball continuously, with the ball leaving the stoppage area, but no clearance is paid, or the clearance is paid to the

They classify each possession, and then whether they get a disposal, and whether it changes zones on the ground etc.

From a centre bounce they record which players are in the square
Hit out result
Was it to advantage or sharked
Was there a gather from hit out
Who takes First Possession, They are credited with chain launch
Then off to disposal, and a flag of clearance if it judged as clearing stoppag, it may also be an inside 50, and an ineffective kick.

People assume a ‘clearance’ to be something positive, not necessarily the case...Hawthorn sides during three peat often lost clearances.
That was because they set up to defend the clearance (due to ave rucks) with both a floating defender and structurally inside the center, teams might "win the clearances" vs them but they often pressured disposals that resulted in turn over. They would then launch off HB.
Conversely they were very good at making the most of their clearances often getting into space and clean inside 50 kick.

I'd like clearences broken down further: Winning them but to then not take advantage of them is as bad as losing them.

Clean clearence where players get out to space and cleanly release the ball.
Pressured clearence player releases ball under pressure ie whilst tackled or no look rushed snap over shoulder (also known as the Beams kick) etc.
Center break where a player breaks from the clearance off the hit out receive.
Dead ball contests a neutral cntr contest off the tap/ho.

This would give a better and broader picture at how often and clean we clear it from the middle and how often we can lock it in.
 

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loki04

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Cited elsewhere that Grundy is top 3 league wide for average taps to advantage per game.
Was that the stat someone linked me where his game vs WC was in top 3 of all rucks ave of 2018? Very misleading stat that one given you ar using 1 game vs others averages.

There is advantage and ADVANTAGE, he hits it to a stagnant player at his feet who is immediately tackled this gets marked as adv ho BUT really its not a great option as far as giving an adv goes.

Where as if he hit it to a player moving past him or to space the player can hit at pace, who collects and breaks clean or feeds it out cleanly to another runner is a real advantage ho.
 

jackcass

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Was that the stat someone linked me where his game vs WC was in top 3 of all rucks ave of 2018? Very misleading stat that one given you ar using 1 game vs others averages.

There is advantage and ADVANTAGE, he hits it to a stagnant player at his feet who is immediately tackled this gets marked as adv ho BUT really its not a great option as far as giving an adv goes.

Where as if he hit it to a player moving past him or to space the player can hit at pace, who collects and breaks clean or feeds it out cleanly to another runner is a real advantage ho.
Could be, don't have access to those stats, just recall reading it.

Edit: did some hunting and found those stats in the AFL stats area. 2019 YTD

Hitout win %
1 Gawn - 62.8
2 Mumford - 57.9
3 Grundy - 55.3

Total HO to advantage
1 Gawn - 87
2 Grundy - 73

HO to A % (those with >150 HO's)
1 Goldstein - 38.4 (177 HO)
2 Gawn - 34.5 (252 HO)
3 Grundy - 31.9 (229 HO)
 
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TheGreatGrundy

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Sier spent a lot of time running to where the ball ain't in the limited VFL I've seen him play so obviously he's still got a bit of learning to do. If he can start to have an impact at VFL level then obviously that'll suggest greater capacity to do the same at senior level.
Bummer! I had him pencilled in as a star inside midfielder for 2019. Better get out the eraser.
 

sr36

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Do you really believe that Sier was not our best clearance player from the time he was picked in the 2nd half of last season maybe not a mile but a definite 1500mtrs go back and review the games and then tell me I am seeing thing,the only other player to have that sort of dynamic effect was De Goey in the QB game.You also asked me what numbers I would like to see from Sidebotham and Beams it may not be theg numbers per se but effectiveness,Sidey only really has the Richmond game where he has played well this season sure he may be getting 23 or 24 touches and they have been underwhelming the same applies to Beams he had only 1 decent match so far.Grundy has been the dominant big man in every match he has played and it seems like unless he gets the clearance also we do not get 1 st use of the ball.L have never been in favour of bringing Beams back and if It means seeing less of Sier and actually losing him Iwould think it is a very poor decision.
I think he was our best clearance mid, but I also think he was our least effective transition mid - by a pretty big margin. I want him back in the team, but we do lose in areas other than clearances if he does get back in.
 

kallangur pie

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I think he was our best clearance mid, but I also think he was our least effective transition mid - by a pretty big margin. I want him back in the team, but we do lose in areas other than clearances if he does get back in.
I think a lot of that has to do with a lack of match fitness and lack of tank both of which can be improved with time,I just want to see him back in the team and firing out those handpasses with 2 hanging off him.
 

jackcass

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I think a lot of that has to do with a lack of match fitness and lack of tank both of which can be improved with time,I just want to see him back in the team and firing out those handpasses with 2 hanging off him.
I think it's more to do with work rate and running patterns. He was only ever playing about 60% TOG and you have to wonder if that was more about his lack of impact beyond the clearance rather than match fitness.
 

jackcass

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Bummer! I had him pencilled in as a star inside midfielder for 2019. Better get out the eraser.
I think he still has that in his potential, just needs to learn where to run and how hard he needs to work to get there. Sometimes it's not even about being involved in those transitions, but realizing sacrificial running can open pathways for others.
 

cityslick1

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Grundy often taps to opposition mids... its his Achilles heel. Don’t know why more isn’t made of this. Has been his biggest weakness for a long time.
 

sr36

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Grundy often taps to opposition mids... its his Achilles heel. Don’t know why more isn’t made of this. Has been his biggest weakness for a long time.
Because every ruckman in the league does. Whilst looking upwards at the ball, they tap it towards a teammate who is supposed to be in a particular position but has often been pushed to somewhere else or not been able to get to the correct position, which is hard enough in itself, but they do it whilst being jumped into by a 100kg man.
 

cityslick1

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Because every ruckman in the league does. Whilst looking upwards at the ball, they tap it towards a teammate who is supposed to be in a particular position but has often been pushed to somewhere else or not been able to get to the correct position, which is hard enough in itself, but they do it whilst being jumped into by a 100kg man.
Nope, often taps to opponents that are standing still. Is a better clearance player than he is a tap ruckman. Take a closer look
 

MarkT2

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Re the last few posts:

IMO Grundy does tap to opposition a lot and he does tap to stationary mids in a crowd a lot. His tapwork could be a lot better and it would make a big difference to the outcome.

He's a gun ruckman/follower but his tapwork is not his strength. Raw stats are not relevent is this assesment. A good indicator would be scores from ruck stoppages.

If he improves his tapwork he'd be the most valuable player in the comp. by a margin. It isn't only his domaim to improve it is also a midfield and coaching issue that needs both his and the mids to coordinate better. It's time we had a Monkhurst or Taubert (spelling?) to coach specificaly the ruck and midfield clearance strategy and implimentation. We are talking about winning or losing a GF based on 2018. Whatever Monkey would cost us I'd pay 10 times that. If we had to sack that pasta washer and one of the fat blokes that runs the water bottles to pay the bill then sobeit.
 

sr36

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Nope, often taps to opponents that are standing still. Is a better clearance player than he is a tap ruckman. Take a closer look
What are you noping to? Other ruckman also often hitting it to the opposition? being a blind tap? A big bloke crashing into him? The potential that his teammates get blocked and don't always get to where they are supposed to get?
 
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