Our Current Back 6

[shinboner magic]

May and Lever joined prior to flags. I think we will gradually start to climb the ladder, especially next season.

I think Allir moved to Port when they were fringe 8. Whether or not they turn out be gun players we've been able to recruit Steevo, CCJ and Corr over the last two years despite finishing last and 3rd last. I don't think we will have an issue getting in more talent with our cap space, just a matter of choosing the right options.

Think lever left for crazy money and they had to hand over two 1st rounders.
May went for a first rounder plus they wanted him out due time being trouble.
Swans gave Allir away practically as they couldn’t fit him in the cap

 

[Psicosis]

See that bolded bit?

WTF? I'm disagreeing with you not censoring you. Nobody thinks the backline is finished. LOL dude....

We don't even know it was a bad trade. Goldy and X could be gone by next season leaving us CCJ and Edwards as rucks. If that happens its a much better decision than it looks now with hindsight. Cos otherwise we'd be looking at Walker and Edwards rucking for us.

Anyway. Who should we have got in last year to fix the backline (besides Goater and Bergman)? Some guy from WA who wants to be in WA with his family or pick from a bunch of spuds who haven't even played a game yet.

BTW Melbourne's backline works cos they traded in two excellent players who dominate down there.

I’ve said previously the jury is very much out on the CCJ trade & I’ll give it time. However it’s not looking great as it becomes pick 20 for a guy who hasn’t proven he can play afl level consistently after 5 years.

Again, you’re getting sucked into the 2021 draft & exclusively KPDs. Dunno how much clearer I can be, that we need multiple defenders, in fact an entire back 6. The backline has been neglected between 2016 & 2021.

I look at examples such as Rivers from the 2019 draft, who is one that we should have been all over as an example. Trading for Scrimshaw from GC for peanuts is another.

I’m happy with the 2021 draft FWIW (although I do think we should have taken a punt on Dean). However it’s going to take us another 2-3 drafts of focusing on the back 6 to get the pieces, before another god knows how long to develop them.

 

[ferball]

I don't think Lewis Young was an arsey pick. Carlton had two of the better key defenders in the comp and sought him to add depth.

As for McDonald, I was pro-McDonald at the start of the rebuild especially since he was going for loose change.

Skinner would provide us with a KPD in the VFL and provide backup should one of Walker or McKay go down. We currently have bloody Marty Hore as our second KPD in the ressies, and I'm pretty sure he went down with an injury.

These are all guys we wouldn't have had to break the bank to get.

We have straight up neglected that area of our list.

We shouldn't be recruiting players like Skinner for the VFL unless they're on the VFL list, and that wasn't gonna happen. (He might not have wanted to leave SA anyway.) Any young KPD who works is an arsey pick imo. There are plenty who won't work out (we had four or five.) But you'd expect the recruitment team are working thru every potential KPD in the country. Its their job.

GODees' McDonald is a good player cos he is on the end of a very good system.

Personally I find alot of this criticism of the list management team a bit stupid considering where we are now and where we were when they started. Especially because its always negative and never focuses on positives. Alot of it is unreasonable and childish. That's not to say people can't do it but youse should be acknowledging what look like good decisions - Chom and Perez in the thirties, even Mahony whose output is fine considering where he was drafted two and half seasons ago. Powell, Goater, Bergman and Curtis. (Edwards and JHF go without saying. Only question is Phillips vs DGB and I'd probably still go with Phillips myself cos we needed more hard working mids when he was drafted.) Charlie Ham was a bust but Cooper Sharman is the only player to go later who looked like filling a need there.

We recruited Bonar for a late pick swap and he still looks okay, we got Walker for nothing, Corr for nothing, Young for a 7 pick downgrade in the 60s (so obviously the recruitment team are churning thru mature age backmen looking for players who fit.) WE got Sleevo and Atu, effectively swapped for Ben Brown.

Obviously we have holes that need to be addressed but they can't all be fixed at once and filling them with short term options means that short term option is taking the place of a long term option in another spot. The speculative players we are taking are all low cost options of FAs. Not every pick will succeed. Given all that we are doing okay and while we have targets we need to find .... we're sposed to be at the start of a rebuild. If we are bottoming out building a strong backline first will interfere with that and prevent any natural tanking that goes along with starting from scratch.

 

[ferball]

What would it take to pry someone like CJ out of Hawthorn for example?

It would probably take JHF.

 

[ferball]

I’ve said previously the jury is very much out on the CCJ trade & I’ll give it time. However it’s not looking great as it becomes pick 20 for a guy who hasn’t proven he can play afl level consistently after 5 years.

Again, you’re getting sucked into the 2021 draft & exclusively KPDs. Dunno how much clearer I can be, that we need multiple defenders, in fact an entire back 6. The backline has been neglected between 2016 & 2021.

I look at examples such as Rivers from the 2019 draft, who is one that we should have been all over as an example. Trading for Scrimshaw from GC for peanuts is another.

I’m happy with the 2021 draft FWIW (although I do think we should have taken a punt on Dean). However it’s going to take us another 2-3 drafts of focusing on the back 6 to get the pieces, before another god knows how long to develop them.

Or it could work with Bonar, Goater, Bergman, Perez, McKay, McGuiness, McDonald and Corr plus maybe one more good, mature KPD. That's nine players who could fill the back six. Plus potential back ups in Turner, Hayden, Atu, Archer, Walker. Three of whom could be gone at the season's end sure, but that's three more spots we can fill. We don't need "an entire back six".

I don't mind the idea of running Thomas, Taylor and Sleevo out of the backline either because so many attacks are launched from the backline (and Thomas and Taylor could actually defend at the required level as well even tho their role would be more attacking than defending.).

 

[Psicosis]

We shouldn't be recruiting players like Skinner for the VFL unless they're on the VFL list, and that wasn't gonna happen. (He might not have wanted to leave SA anyway.) Any young KPD who works is an arsey pick imo. There are plenty who won't work out (we had four or five.) But you'd expect the recruitment team are working thru every potential KPD in the country. Its their job.

GODees' McDonald is a good player cos he is on the end of a very good system.

Personally I find alot of this criticism of the list management team a bit stupid considering where we are now and where we were when they started. Especially because its always negative and never focuses on positives. Alot of it is unreasonable and childish. That's not to say people can't do it but youse should be acknowledging what look like good decisions - Chom and Perez in the thirties, even Mahony whose output is fine considering where he was drafted two and half seasons ago. Powell, Goater, Bergman and Curtis. (Edwards and JHF go without saying. Only question is Phillips vs DGB and I'd probably still go with Phillips myself cos we needed more hard working mids when he was drafted.) Charlie Ham was a bust but Cooper Sharman is the only player to go later who looked like filling a need there.

We recruited Bonar for a late pick swap and he still looks okay, we got Walker for nothing, Corr for nothing, Young for a 7 pick downgrade in the 60s (so obviously the recruitment team are churning thru mature age backmen looking for players who fit.) WE got Sleevo and Atu, effectively swapped for Ben Brown.

Obviously we have holes that need to be addressed but they can't all be fixed at once and filling them with short term options means that short term option is taking the place of a long term option in another spot. The speculative players we are taking are all low cost options of FAs. Not every pick will succeed. Given all that we are doing okay and while we have targets we need to find .... we're sposed to be at the start of a rebuild. If we are bottoming out building a strong backline first will interfere with that and prevent any natural tanking that goes along with starting from scratch.

Spare me the wiping generalisations. I’ve been both complimentary and empathetic to our list management team in my posting on this forum. In fact, I think I’ve been far more positive then negative over the last 3 years.

The backline is a disaster, both from a personnel and system perspective. Worst in the competition. Some of that does lie on list management.

 

[Zondor]

Brady came to the club with this aura of toughness when it came to list management and the trade table. This has proven to be complete fluff with the way we handled the Brown situation and the CCJ trade. You don’t get anywhere by being fair, and we got walked all over by both Melbourne and Richmond. I still think we wouldve got more value out of Brown had we have kept him but the way in which we handled that situation left us with absolutely NO bargaining power which was embarrassing. The less said about the CCJ trade the better, handing over a top 30 pick when we had all the power was just plain stupidity. Huge risk giving up that much draft capital when we had the PSD as the best bargaining tool. Carlton sent an ex first round pick in Jack Martin to the PSD yet we coughed up a 2nd round pick for a fringe tall. Laughable.

Yup. There are Grandmas at Big Sam Market bewildered at Rawling's inability to haggle. :stern look

 

[Psicosis]

Or it could work with Bonar, Goater, Bergman, Perez, McKay, McGuiness, McDonald and Corr plus maybe one more good, mature KPD. That's nine players who could fill the back six. Plus potential back ups in Turner, Hayden, Atu, Archer, Walker. Three of whom could be gone at the season's end sure, but that's three more spots we can fill. We don't need "an entire back six".

I don't mind the idea of running Thomas, Taylor and Sleevo out of the backline either because so many attacks are launched from the backline (and Thomas and Taylor could actually defend at the required level as well even tho their role would be more attacking than defending.).

In your first paragraph, you’ve listed 13 “potential defenders”. Of those 13, only 3 have played consistently good football over an extended period in an AFL backline (McKay, McDonald & Corr). 2 of those 3 are 27+.

The other 10 are largely unknown/not good enough/not even debuted.

Stephenson, Taylor & Thomas have not played in the backline at AFL level.

I understand you’re happy to throw everything on the line for “hope” & “blind fairh”, but other supporters are well within their right to expect some clearer strategy on our backline. I’m not alone in believing we need 5/6 players…

 

[Zondor]

O.K. so which players brought in from other club's since Luffs has been at the club would you consider a tick thus far?
Stephenson?
Corr?
Bosenavulagi?
Bonar?
Young?
Greenwood?
Walker?
Coleman Jones?
Lynch?

Note: Polec, Hall and Anderson are all Joyces Era recruits. :stern look

Disclaimer: Feel free to correct me if any of the above is incorrect. :stern look

 

[ferball]

O.K. so which players brought in from other club's since Luffs has been at the club would you consider a tick thus far?
Stephenson?
Corr?
Bosenavulagi?
Bonar?
Young?
Greenwood?
Walker?
Coleman Jones?
Lynch?

Note: Polec, Hall and Anderson are all Joyces Era recruits. :stern look

Disclaimer: Feel free to correct me if any of the above is incorrect. :stern look

Of those guys only the last two are an issue and CCJ could end up like Anderson with people going off half cocked about how s**t he was early. We definitely need someone with Lynch's transitional nous in a coaching role so if listing him was the only way we keep him then that maybe a good decision. he should probably retire for the MSD tho.

Bosenavulagi, Bonar, Walker, Corr, Young and Greenwood all cost * all and if they work out they will be great value. WE're at the bottom of a rebuild so the only issue with those guys is keeping them too long. Well, Walker has already worked out. He's been great depth and cost nothing. Greenwood is a good opportunistic grab considering how young our midfield is. Bonar is good value if he overcomes injury issues and the other two have definitely improved over their time with us. At the end of this season Atu, Walker and Young are all out of contract. The most they should get is another two years and that's only if they really step up this season (Walker gets one at most and that's dependent on our KPD position.) Otherwise one year or none/gone depending on how they perform and what we have to replace them.

Given what we paid the only ones who cost anything are Sleevo and CCJ. Sleevo cost two second rounders so that was a bargain. CCJ may be an issue but we don't know that yet.

So for no cost Luff has given us one KPD who has provided great depth/service, another who looks like a five year quality KPD, a half decent running HBFer, a big body to take some pressure off the young mids and a couple of money ball types who keep showing improvement. Plus two other recruits one of whom was a bargain and one who may be a waste of a second round pick at the absolute worst.

On the basis of that he has done well.

 

[hilly]

O.K. so which players brought in from other club's since Luffs has been at the club would you consider a tick thus far?
Stephenson?
Corr?
Bosenavulagi?
Bonar?
Young?
Greenwood?
Walker?
Coleman Jones?
Lynch?

Note: Polec, Hall and Anderson are all Joyces Era recruits. :stern look

Disclaimer: Feel free to correct me if any of the above is incorrect. :stern look

Based on what it cost to acquire them, they are all ticks apart from Coleman Jones.

Problem is that they take up list spots and the opportunity cost is unknown.

 

[shimaburnsgrieg]

Look at Fremantle. That’s a side that we are going to be coming up against when we eventually do rise up the ladder. They’ve invested first round picks like Young, Chapman (whilst also investing heavily in the midfield), but have also implemented a defence first system.

It is now starting to click & they are very difficult to score against.

We are the complete f*n opposite & should be concerned about what I think is a reckless approach to our back 6 & defensive system. It needs to stop this year. We need our future backline to have 5 years playing together before we are going to trouble anyone - I’d say we only have 1 lock (McKay) of that back 6 on our list.

PSI - you are always an entertaining poster so don't take this wrong way but I recall you being a 100% advocate for the 'draft mids, mids and then draft more mids' approach that we have taken. In fact I recall you saying...you can never have enough good mids so we need to keep drafting them.....

The consequence of that approach is that other areas are neglected - as we are painfully seeing now - and for us its pretty much every area of the ground other than mids where we are deficient.

When I said we should be selecting DGB with our first pick because we had no one other than BMac in defence you were the first to say - No -
Phillips was the best mid and we needed to take him and keep recruiting more and more mids.

It looks like you are coming around to the need for a more 'balanced' approach to list management - I am hoping the club has as well - but with 1 pick inside 50 this year its going to take a while from here.

We have dug ourselves a big hole with our list mgt decisions over recent years and only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Psicosis]

PSI - you are always an entertaining poster so don't take this wrong way but I recall you being a 100% advocate for the 'draft mids, mids and then draft more mids' approach that we have taken. In fact I recall you saying...you can never have enough good mids so we need to keep drafting them.....

The consequence of that approach is that other areas are neglected - as we are painfully seeing now - and for us its pretty much every area of the ground other than mids where we are deficient.

When I said we should be selecting DGB with our first pick because we had no one other than BMac in defence you were the first to say - No -
Phillips was the best mid and we needed to take him and keep recruiting more and more mids.

It looks like you are coming around to the need for a more 'balanced' approach to list management - I am hoping the club has as well - but with 1 pick inside 50 this year its going to take a while from here.

We have dug ourselves a big hole with our list mgt decisions over recent years and only have ourselves to blame.

I’m not shying away from a mid first draft approach (particularly the early picks) Shim. I understand why we took the likes of Powell, Phillips and Horne where we took them. Ultimately it’s best available at the pointy end. Obviously Phillips is the one that stands out considering who was taken after him, but it’s very early.

I’d take a midfielder again in 2022 if they were best available. Absolutely no question, just get me talent and the right attitude.

My concern is really around what we have done outside that pointy end of the draft, in terms of defenders.

 

[kaboom kid]

Needs to be the below next week

B: Turner Mckay Corr
HB: McDonald Walker Perez
Bonar off the bench

Goater is going to be a key going forward and another young KPD

Yes, spot on. If Goater and Bergman continue to develop as they have done already this year then we are set. All we need is one KPD. Plus we have an abundance of mids. We could easily slot one in as the half back playmaker/ line breaker. Thomas is the obvious one but others could do it as well. Don't think the sky is falling.

 

[StiffArm]

It would probably take JHF.

Setting aside past trading with hawthorn... They're stacked with talent in the backline. We're stacked in the midfield where they're short. Would it be someone like Powell? Lizard plus a second?

 

[StiffArm]

PSI - you are always an entertaining poster so don't take this wrong way but I recall you being a 100% advocate for the 'draft mids, mids and then draft more mids' approach that we have taken. In fact I recall you saying...you can never have enough good mids so we need to keep drafting them.....

The consequence of that approach is that other areas are neglected - as we are painfully seeing now - and for us its pretty much every area of the ground other than mids where we are deficient.

When I said we should be selecting DGB with our first pick because we had no one other than BMac in defence you were the first to say - No -
Phillips was the best mid and we needed to take him and keep recruiting more and more mids.

It looks like you are coming around to the need for a more 'balanced' approach to list management - I am hoping the club has as well - but with 1 pick inside 50 this year its going to take a while from here.

We have dug ourselves a big hole with our list mgt decisions over recent years and only have ourselves to blame.

If we still have 2 of Nielson, EWB and Durdin come good, we're not having this discussion.

Durdin could have been. EWB looked the goods before injury. Nielson I never understood.

 

[Moti]

McKay and Corr as our 2 KP defenders, Bonar as the third tall, Mc Donald as our interceptor, and 3x running defenders which I think will come from the past couple of drafts in the next 24 months.

Upgrade Bonar to a genuine mobile 3rd tall would add to this structure. Maybe McGuiness?

Until the other 2/3rds improve, the defence will continue to be under a fair amount of pressure.

 

[Forever North]

Our defence on paper is as bad as it gets for this level. But funnily enough I reckon it has held up ok the past 18 months. When you look at the cattle we have things could have been much much worse I reckon. Corr and McKay are good players, Luke is a goer but the rest are simply not good enough. We have no real dashers or decent ball users coming out of the backline, just honest plodders and triers (Walker, Ziebel, Turner, Bonar, Scott, Young, Hayden etc). Hopefully a few of the younger guys and some good drafting can rectify this. Until then our patched up defensive unit will be a major major weakness.

 

[Kangaroos techno]

Jack Ziebell probably not on Mitch Lewis. A genuine KPD (probably Walker) in our ressies. Not to mention our defence looks a shambles without his guidance.

We're a KPD short this year, and he's a good one we let go for nothing. Not a long term solution, of course, but 2022 development is important to me.

In fairness, Hawthorn aren't the biggest up top, McKay went down early and Walker was injured. If a key tall goes down in any team you're going to struggle.

The difference between our team and others is they can zone and cover for one another. Vlustin and Sicily have both been asked to play on talls before and they've managed due to players helping. With Ziebell we left him high and dry thanks to lazy midfielders that don't track back and defenders that have no idea how to play anything but 1v1.

 

[kaboom kid]

Or it could work with Bonar, Goater, Bergman, Perez, McKay, McGuiness, McDonald and Corr plus maybe one more good, mature KPD. That's nine players who could fill the back six. Plus potential back ups in Turner, Hayden, Atu, Archer, Walker. Three of whom could be gone at the season's end sure, but that's three more spots we can fill. We don't need "an entire back six".

I don't mind the idea of running Thomas, Taylor and Sleevo out of the backline either because so many attacks are launched from the backline (and Thomas and Taylor could actually defend at the required level as well even tho their role would be more attacking than defending.).

Even Sleevo could work down there I reckon. He has the speed and tank to go with high half forwards. Actually tackles surprisingly well for his size. And his decision making/ kicking is very good. This is one of the advantages of a midfield first recruitment approach. You end up with a surfeit of quality players and some of them get forced on to the flanks to get game time.

 

[kaboom kid]

McKay and Corr as our 2 KP defenders, Bonar as the third tall, Mc Donald as our interceptor, and 3x running defenders which I think will come from the past couple of drafts in the next 24 months.

Upgrade Bonar to a genuine mobile 3rd tall would add to this structure. Maybe McGuiness?

Until the other 2/3rds improve, the defence will continue to be under a fair amount of pressure.

McGuiness 28 disposals and 12 marks in the VFL this week I saw. I have seen very little of him live but apparently was going pretty well last year before injury. Would be great if he could develop into a 3rd tall/interceptor.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

There’s only two guys that play back there that consistently win 1v1 contests.

We don’t have enough guys that can defend.

Simple as that.

 

[shinboner magic]

Based on what it cost to acquire them, they are all ticks apart from Coleman Jones.

Problem is that they take up list spots and the opportunity cost is unknown.

Yeah after they’re on the list what they cost shouldn’t come into it.
It should all be about output.

McGuiness 28 disposals and 12 marks in the VFL this week I saw. I have seen very little of him live but apparently was going pretty well last year before injury. Would be great if he could develop into a 3rd tall/interceptor.

Most of those possessions were chipping across half back - didn’t really see much intercepting in the time I was watching

 

[kaboom kid]

Yeah after they’re on the list what they cost shouldn’t come into it.
It should all be about output.



Most of those possessions were chipping across half back - didn’t really see much intercepting in the time I was watching

What did you think of him overall?

 

[hoffseason gains]

Most of those possessions were chipping across half back - didn’t really see much intercepting in the time I was watching

From what I can recall I remember at least 3 intercept marks out of his 12. A lot of chipping around the back but he has a very nice leg on him and is willing to somewhat take the game on which is a positive over someone like Walker in the 1s even though Walker is much better as a 1 on 1 defender.

Would not debut him against Geelong or Carlton but if he backs up his performance with a few more promising ones, I wouldn’t mind debuting him against Freo or Port. Port probably perfect he can match up on Marshall or Finlayson who aren’t overly strong or dominant. We have to at least try him for a run of games this year because we won’t be that much worse off and we need to know if he can somewhat cut it at that level.

On another seperate note, I think Bergman should be next in line for a debut in defence, classy, gets in the right spots and tough. Also got some good dukes despite his frame.