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the Ziebull

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 14, 2010
29,555
28,766
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Yes, spot on. If Goater and Bergman continue to develop as they have done already this year then we are set. All we need is one KPD. Plus we have an abundance of mids. We could easily slot one in as the half back playmaker/ line breaker. Thomas is the obvious one but others could do it as well. Don't think the sky is falling.
Unfortunately not that many out of contract KPD, need 1 of the below

Alex Pearce
Dan McStay (can play either end)
Darcy Gardiner
James Sicily as more an athletic chb
Griffin Logue
Josh Battle
 

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Themanbun

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 19, 2019
7,115
20,229
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Unfortunately not that many out of contract KPD, need 1 of the below

Alex Pearce
Dan McStay (can play either end)
Darcy Gardiner
James Sicily as more an athletic chb
Griffin Logue
Josh Battle
We won't get Sicily although I'd be happy to throw a bag of cash at him. I'm not convinced McKay should/will be our #1 KPD.
 

kaboom kid

Club Legend
Apr 28, 2016
2,142
3,721
Destination club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Not too worried about next year options yet

Need to solve this now
Money is the only reason they are coming to us. We have plenty of cap space I guess. Sicily already has flags I suppose so he might be tempted by a big payday. Would be hard to leave Brisbane now as they might be on the cusp of a flag. Boomer Roo says Pearce isn't leaving .
 

big_e

Existential crisis management consultant
Apr 28, 2008
9,295
27,590
Back Pocket
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Wycombe Wanderers
Unfortunately not that many out of contract KPD, need 1 of the below

Alex Pearce
Dan McStay (can play either end)
Darcy Gardiner
James Sicily as more an athletic chb
Griffin Logue
Josh Battle
This is your periodic reminder that players under contract get traded every year.
 

Themanbun

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 19, 2019
7,115
20,229
AFL Club
North Melbourne
This is your periodic reminder that players under contract get traded every year.
Yep that's been my thinking. We don't need to wait and we didn't presume to wait when we chased that gold coast kid last year (even though he said no).
 

shinboner magic

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 17, 2007
19,026
27,316
melb home of the kangas
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
hellas,liverpool,storm,au
Money is the only reason they are coming to us. We have plenty of cap space I guess. Sicily already has flags I suppose so he might be tempted by a big payday. Would be hard to leave Brisbane now as they might be on the cusp of a flag. Boomer Roo says Pearce isn't leaving .
Don’t think Sicily played in a flag
 

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Themanbun

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 19, 2019
7,115
20,229
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I did a bit of research after the discussion that there have been no key defenders for us to target with our draft capital (unless we wanted to use a super high pick best used on a mid), or out of contract.

Here's a list of the best key defenders in the game and where they were drafted:

  • Jacob Weitering - #1 - national draft
  • Jake Lever - #14 - national draft
  • Sam Taylor - #28 - national draft
  • Tom McCartin - #33 - national draft
  • Marcus Adams - #35 - national draft
  • Josh Battle - #39 - national draft
  • Charlie Ballard - #42 - national draft
  • Tom Barass - #43 - national draft
  • Sam Collins - #55 - national draft
  • James Sicily - #56 - national draft
  • Dougal Howard - #56 - national draft
  • Ryan Gardner - #59 - national draft
  • Harris Andrews - #61 - national draft
  • Jeremy McGovern - #74 - rookie
I have left May off because I don't fully remember how that Suns selection worked.

Top 5 picks: 1 (Weitering)
Top 10 picks: 1 (Weitering)
Picks 1-18: 2 (including Weitering)
Second round: 6
Third round: 5
Rookies: 1

Most of these blokes are from 2014-2017.

There should be someone who was drafted in the second or third rounds from 2018-2020 who we can target, and who hasn't broken into the top tier of KPDs but to whom we can give more opportunity.

We shouldn't have had to break the bank to have a decent shot at addressing this need from 2018-2021, either.

As a side note, I wonder if clubs will consider using KPDs as cash cows at some point. Continuously draft a bunch in the 40s and 50s, play them, trade them out for a late first or early second to a club desperate for one, rinse/repeat.

I know it's not as simple as the numbers presented above, but I'm trying to illustrate the sheer degree of neglect here. I'm actually shocked that there aren't more first rounder defenders, and the numbers don't serve to help how we've managed this.

We've known since about 2018-19 that our KPD heavy draft (Nielsen, Durdin) was a bust, and we could've had a bash with some third/fourth rounders to build some depth here but simply opted not to. Now we may find ourselves having to overpay for one since they take 3-4 years to come on...unless we plan on not being competitive for 3-4 years and we draft one in 2022. There could be someone like Emerson Jeka or Koszchitske ready to make the switch to defence and primed to make some super progress over the next few years.

History says a mid-late second and a third rounder are good spots to draft KPDs. This is where things like giving up our future second rounder for CCJ, our third rounder, etc. may come back to bite us.
 
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koshari

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 24, 2011
16,649
24,282
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Money is the only reason they are coming to us. We have plenty of cap space I guess. Sicily already has flags I suppose so he might be tempted by a big payday. Would be hard to leave Brisbane now as they might be on the cusp of a flag. Boomer Roo says Pearce isn't leaving .
The way Freo are tracking and also being native western Australian Griffin Logue is going nowhere.
 

Pagans Paddock99

Senior List
Jul 8, 2018
175
387
AFL Club
North Melbourne
The reason it is very rare for defenders to be high draft picks is simple.
The best juniors are either mids or forwards. You don’t send your most talented player to full back to stop the opposition from scoring, you send your best player to where they can impact the scoreboard the most, whether it be scoring chains from the middle or actual goals.
My concern having pick 1 would mean we would be overpaying based on needs rather than best available talent.
At the pointy end of the draft you simply need the best available player as there value will be too high or they will be a better/younger player to someone already playing that role in the team. E.g. I’m sure the bulldogs are happy they drafted Bailey Smith regardless of how deep their midfield is as he worked out to be an upgrade on West/Wallis?
I would think off memory the best defenders (Harris Andrews, Jeremy McGovern, Alex Rance, Tom Stewart, Jiath) we’re all late or speculative picks?
This highlights even further why there wasn’t more investment in our defence instead of using picks on Lazzaro or Spicer or Ham when we could have taken a defender with these as those 3 players were speculative anyway?
Wasn’t Aliir Aliir traded for pick 36?
We can only hope Lynch is retired mid year and we have a spot freed up to atleast target someone in the MSD?





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rm3504

Team Captain
May 13, 2011
475
468
Perth
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I like your posting pretty generally mate so don't think this too harshly. But I just feel I need to call this sentence out.

As forum goers commenting about our club, we are all internet list managers, internet coaches, etc. We're not cheerleaders, but friends who have gotten together to discuss our team.

And I don't think the criticism from 'internet list managers' is misplaced.

We should be dead last for the second year running. Bottom 3 for the third consecutive year. We have, I think, the worst percentage in the league. We looked horrid against Hawthorn. We looked horrid against a sub standard West Coast. We were close to the worst I have ever seen us against Brisbane. We turned up for 3 quarters against Sydney and 1 against the Bulldogs. This was despite us showing steps to be more competitive last year yet we seem to have gone backwards. We're at the point where our supporters are crying 'conspiracy' if we don't get a handout top 2 pick from the AFL for being as bad as we are. While other clubs have just gotten on with their rebuilds and are visibly progressing. Our 5 year rebuild is looking more like an 8 year one. We're already saying Corr won't be around when we contend, soon we'll be saying Jy won't be around and the cycle begins anew.

Clubs which started their rebuilds just before us (Freo, Sydney) have not looked quite as bad as we do now. Clubs which started their rebuilds at the same time as us (Hawthorn, Adelaide - let's not pretend we weren't sitting around during 2020 saying how Adelaide are a year or two behind us) or even just after us, look way ahead on the development curve and are now competitive as fu**.

There is nothing to suggest our list managers are doing a good job at this stage. We're the worst team in the league. The guy running our list management has no prior history for us to go off, and the guy overseeing him helped build a West Coast list that won a flag but which we have seen had major, major holes in it and shortly after became a rabble. If it weren't for Tom Powell in particular, then trading out of 2019 pick 8, one of our new crew's first moves, was also pretty damn bad, and was a mere 12 months away from being one of the biggest self-owns I've ever seen in future pick swapping.

We are currently running around with sub standard key position defenders, and people who questioned the club in a place designed specifically for that were spoken down to because a Cat B rookie who never played KPD was allegedly all the depth we needed in that area.

People are allowed to call this out and float options as to what could have been done. We are a horrid football side.

I am confident we will get better at some point, but I cannot accept that supporters on this forum shouldn't be able to question the decisions those in charge are making, when we've been one of the worst teams in the comp for 3 years running, and that's not even mentioning that we've actually kinda been building for a rebuild from the 2017-18 drafts, not 2020-21.

If we can't question the expertise of our football dept. when we are the worst side in the comp for several years, when can we?
Well said. My fav post I’ve ever seen
I can’t comment on the team anymore, I’ve had the stuffing taken out of me
I watch teams around us last year.. Collingwood, Adelaide and hawthorn all improve, some by a lot
Rarely does a first or 2nd year player north player make the competition notice their brilliance, seems to happen everywhere else
I watch other teams improve with envy.
We’d better hope the young high draft picks stick around.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
31,673
60,358
AFL Club
North Melbourne
In your first paragraph, you’ve listed 13 “potential defenders”. Of those 13, only 3 have played consistently good football over an extended period in an AFL backline (McKay, McDonald & Corr). 2 of those 3 are 27+.

The other 10 are largely unknown/not good enough/not even debuted.

Stephenson, Taylor & Thomas have not played in the backline at AFL level.

I understand you’re happy to throw everything on the line for “hope” & “blind fairh”, but other supporters are well within their right to expect some clearer strategy on our backline. I’m not alone in believing we need 5/6 players…
It just seems like you're jumping on a critical bandwagon cos its there and you can. Its childish to expect these problems to be solved immediately. Are youse all offended cos you asked questions about KPDs at that forum and got blown off? I would have probably done the same thing and added the words "Have some *en patience!!" Reality isn't like supercoach. Things take time.

Obviously the backline has issues and obviously its because less than two years ago we dumped most of our non KPD backmen and have turned over most of our KPD backmen in the last three seasons as well.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
31,673
60,358
AFL Club
North Melbourne
In your first paragraph, you’ve listed 13 “potential defenders”. Of those 13, only 3 have played consistently good football over an extended period in an AFL backline (McKay, McDonald & Corr). 2 of those 3 are 27+.

The other 10 are largely unknown/not good enough/not even debuted.

Stephenson, Taylor & Thomas have not played in the backline at AFL level.

I understand you’re happy to throw everything on the line for “hope” & “blind fairh”, but other supporters are well within their right to expect some clearer strategy on our backline. I’m not alone in believing we need 5/6 players…
BTW at the moment the strategy is pretty damn obvious as well. Cycle thru HBFers until we find ones that work with McDonald. Deal with KPDs as good options appear.
 

Psicosis

Norm Smith Medallist
May 7, 2012
8,875
30,459
Bird Rock
AFL Club
North Melbourne
It just seems like you're jumping on a critical bandwagon cos its there and you can. Its childish to expect these problems to be solved immediately. Are youse all offended cos you asked questions about KPDs at that forum and got blown off? I would have probably done the same thing and added the words "Have some fu**en patience!!" Reality isn't like supercoach. Things take time.

Obviously the backline has issues and obviously its because less than two years ago we dumped most of our non KPD backmen and have turned over most of our KPD backmen in the last three seasons as well.
Haha… I’m discussing what I consider a big issue with our list & list management strategy.

I’m not on a critical bandwagon. I’m not expecting these problems to be solved immediately. I’m not offended about Luff blowing off the QA questions (although I think that his answer now makes him look quite silly).

If you think every move our list management team has made over the last few years is terrific, then good on you, that’s your prerogative. But f*k off my posts trying to make up crap to discredit my opinion.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
31,673
60,358
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Haha… I’m discussing what I consider a big issue with our list & list management strategy.

I’m not on a critical bandwagon. I’m not expecting these problems to be solved immediately. I’m not offended about Luff blowing off the QA questions (although I think that his answer now makes him look quite silly).

If you think every move our list management team has made over the last few years is terrific, then good on you, that’s your prerogative. But f*k off my posts trying to make up crap to discredit my opinion.
You're carrying on like a pork chop about it. What's this:

However it’s going to take us another 2-3 drafts of focusing on the back 6 to get the pieces, before another god knows how long to develop them.

Then

In your first paragraph, you’ve listed 13 “potential defenders”. Of those 13, only 3 have played consistently good football over an extended period in an AFL backline (McKay, McDonald & Corr). 2 of those 3 are 27+.

The other 10 are largely unknown/not good enough/not even debuted.


Do you realise that at some point after those two or three future drafts, those draftees you refer to will be in exactly the same situation the 13 "potential defenders" I've listed are right now, 18 months after we started the rebuild. You've also just assumed none of those "other 10" players I've mentioned are any good or will make it as defenders. Why?

Its obvious the club has been targeting athletic mobile HBFers who can use the ball well since 2019. Bonar, Perez and Bergman all fit that description, as does McGuiness. By many accounts Goater does as well. Young and Walker also have these traits. Even Atu is very mobile and has been effective attacking from the back half in his five or ten games for us. So the back six isn't non existent. Its one arsey MSD pick away from being set.
 

Psicosis

Norm Smith Medallist
May 7, 2012
8,875
30,459
Bird Rock
AFL Club
North Melbourne
You're carrying on like a pork chop about it. What's this:

However it’s going to take us another 2-3 drafts of focusing on the back 6 to get the pieces, before another god knows how long to develop them.

Then

In your first paragraph, you’ve listed 13 “potential defenders”. Of those 13, only 3 have played consistently good football over an extended period in an AFL backline (McKay, McDonald & Corr). 2 of those 3 are 27+.

The other 10 are largely unknown/not good enough/not even debuted.


Do you realise that at some point after those two or three future drafts, those draftees you refer to will be in exactly the same situation the 13 "potential defenders" I've listed are right now, 18 months after we started the rebuild. You've also just assumed none of those "other 10" players I've mentioned are any good or will make it as defenders. Why?

Its obvious the club has been targeting athletic mobile HBFers who can use the ball well since 2019. Bonar, Perez and Bergman all fit that description, as does McGuiness. By many accounts Goater does as well. Young and Walker also have these traits. Even Atu is very mobile and has been effective attacking from the back half in his five or ten games for us. So the back six isn't non existent. Its one arsey MSD pick away from being set.
I have high hopes for Perez, Goater, Bergman & even Bonar. However it's far too simplistic to say "it's one arsey MSD pick away from being set". Those 4 need to be developed extremely well, into a defensive system that stands up together.

I don't share the same optimism for the likes of Young, Atu & McGuinness.

I think you're over simplifying the back 6 build.
 

Themanbun

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 19, 2019
7,115
20,229
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I have high hopes for Perez, Goater, Bergman & even Bonar. However it's far too simplistic to say "it's one arsey MSD pick away from being set". Those 4 need to be developed extremely well, into a defensive system that stands up together.

I don't share the same optimism for the likes of Young, Atu & McGuinness.

I think you're over simplifying the back 6 build.
I rate Perez. Reckon he'll be good for us.

But he's done 2 ACLs and currently averages about 10 disposals a game. We need to be realistic that he is still an iffy proposition at this stage.
 

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