Our defence / Are we too bloody tall

WCE_phil

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Thread starter #1
With hurn back this week and butler back in the next couple it got me thinking about our backline and its current setup. 3 fulltime talls is how we play our defence and then we have bones who is basically just an undersized tall. Tis bloody ridiculous imo. We need more speed and mobility back there imo whilst playing guys who have decent footskills or will look to take the game on.

So i'll put down how i think our backline should be structured.

B Waters Glass Jones
HB Butler Schofield Hurn

Theres a couple of what some people might think are questionable decisions there imo so i'll put down what i think peoples discussions may be.

So why bones? Because he's a great stopper. He not the fastest,the flashest or the most skillful. But he can be relied upon to close a medium-tall forward down and he does it very well. I have also been impressed with his disposal so far this year. Has really improved imo.

Schofield. I just love the way he plays, he takes the game on and i think he's at the stage now where he has the body and strength to go with KPF's instead of playing that 3rd tall/utility. He takes the game on and looks to get the ball forwards and down the corridor fast and to advantage. He is relatively inexperienced and will improve with more games and by playing on the best CHB's in the game. I also think he's probably the only guy on our list who has the overall package to go with blokes like riewoldt. I also like him here more than mackenzie only because i believe emac will make a great fullback over time but i just think he's missing a couple of major pieces to the puzzle as far as a CHB go's.

Lastly Waters and Butler. I honestly couldnt decide who to play as back pocket and who to play as flanker. Waters provides muscle from the pocket and a lot of pressure on the forwards but would also probably provide more run from the halfback line than butler. On the flipside of the scale butler has better foot and decision making skills imo so it becomes a hard choice. I'll leave waters in the pocket for now but with hurn already providing that great boot from the halfback line to break zones i'll leave it open for the two to switch positions. Especially if we arent getting enough run from the backline through schofield.

Lastly i'll put it out there again, i see 0 point in playing 3 tall backs against all but 1-2 teams. To be blunt it just seems plain idiotic to me, especially with the running required with the use of a full court press structured zone.

But hey maybe its just me and everyone else thinks our backline structure and who is playing there is great. Also kudo's for anyone who can either a)shoot spangher and hansen or b) slap the shit out of worsfold till he get it into his head he needs to drop them
 

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DrTomSwift

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#2
It depends on who we go up against if we play Hawks, Brisbane or the Saints (with Roo and Kosi) we will probably have to pick spangher/mackenzie or brown in defence as a 3rd tall. But I really like seeing that HB line it's got a high hurt factor and they can all lock down 1v1.

McGinnity would have to go back if we couldn't control the pace of someone like Rioli.
 
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#3
I do like that set up you have.
And ive asked myself the question as to who plays on the half back and who has better run/creativity coming out of defence between between Butler and Waters.

I agree with the OP that Waters has better run,
Butler makes better decisions and has a better kick.

But what we are forgetting is that we should be looking to get the ball to Hurn at all times as he sets it up better than both of them put together

I think things like specific positions and even the inclusion of Spangher/McKenzie should vary week to week depending on the opponent.

Also agree that Bones has been great so far.
Glass would have to be my biggest disappointment so far.
 

ROYAL EAGLE

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#5
With hurn back this week and butler back in the next couple it got me thinking about our backline and its current setup. 3 fulltime talls is how we play our defence and then we have bones who is basically just an undersized tall. Tis bloody ridiculous imo. We need more speed and mobility back there imo whilst playing guys who have decent footskills or will look to take the game on.

So i'll put down how i think our backline should be structured.

B Waters Glass Jones
HB Butler Schofield Hurn

Theres a couple of what some people might think are questionable decisions there imo so i'll put down what i think peoples discussions may be.

So why bones? Because he's a great stopper. He not the fastest,the flashest or the most skillful. But he can be relied upon to close a medium-tall forward down and he does it very well. I have also been impressed with his disposal so far this year. Has really improved imo.

Schofield. I just love the way he plays, he takes the game on and i think he's at the stage now where he has the body and strength to go with KPF's instead of playing that 3rd tall/utility. He takes the game on and looks to get the ball forwards and down the corridor fast and to advantage. He is relatively inexperienced and will improve with more games and by playing on the best CHB's in the game. I also think he's probably the only guy on our list who has the overall package to go with blokes like riewoldt. I also like him here more than mackenzie only because i believe emac will make a great fullback over time but i just think he's missing a couple of major pieces to the puzzle as far as a CHB go's.

Lastly Waters and Butler. I honestly couldnt decide who to play as back pocket and who to play as flanker. Waters provides muscle from the pocket and a lot of pressure on the forwards but would also probably provide more run from the halfback line than butler. On the flipside of the scale butler has better foot and decision making skills imo so it becomes a hard choice. I'll leave waters in the pocket for now but with hurn already providing that great boot from the halfback line to break zones i'll leave it open for the two to switch positions. Especially if we arent getting enough run from the backline through schofield.

Lastly i'll put it out there again, i see 0 point in playing 3 tall backs against all but 1-2 teams. To be blunt it just seems plain idiotic to me, especially with the running required with the use of a full court press structured zone.

But hey maybe its just me and everyone else thinks our backline structure and who is playing there is great. Also kudo's for anyone who can either a)shoot spangher and hansen or b) slap the shit out of worsfold till he get it into his head he needs to drop them
Not bad Phil, make some space for Andrew Strijk and Lewis Stevenson as well.
 

bodazoka

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#6
B Waters Glass Jones
HB Butler Schofield Hurn

Thats how our backline would be structured if Hurn and Butler were both playing anyway. Throw in Sheppard next year or the year after for Jones and thats a bloody good backline.

Also, if I had to choose any of the smalls to play midfield it would be Waters every day of the week over Butler and Hurn. I rekon Waters will become a midfielder in the future and Sheppard or Smith might take his place.
 

bigburger

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#7
I think when it comes to height its our forward line we should be worried about. Currently we have Brown, Hansen and Kennedy all up forwards with Cox and NicNat resting up there from time to time. Thats freaking huge and easy to match up on when all 4 of those boys are going up for the mark and no ones staying down.
 

WCE_phil

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Thread starter #8
I'd love to find some room for stevenson alas in my plan he's on a wing in the future. According to the phills afl gameplan style of life wingers need to have a good defensive side on them and be able to drop back and apply solid defence and pressure when without the ball and hard run and solid footskills with it.

As for strijk tbh at the moment i see him as depth but as the season has progressed i have been impressed by him and hoping he keeps his development rate going to see him on the main list.
 

daddy_4_eyes

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#9
I think when it comes to height its our forward line we should be worried about. Currently we have Brown, Hansen and Kennedy all up forwards with Cox and NicNat resting up there from time to time. Thats freaking huge and easy to match up on when all 4 of those boys are going up for the mark and no ones staying down.
Its not just the size, but the quality. It works fine for Brisbane with Fevola, Brown & Staker all permanent forwards.

But when we have Ashley "train tracks" Hansen and Mitch "i can't out-body a school girl" Brown up there, is it any wonder we have such a bad conversion rate when we go forward?
 

WCE_phil

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Thread starter #10
To bigburger i certainly agree about our forward line being too tall. I dont see a place for hansen within our forward line. Especially after his current contract. I think mckinley has far more to offer into the future and even right now.

In the future i only see a place for 1 main ruckman playing each game, but thats a theory and a discussion for another thread.
 

Denton52

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#11
Well this is bad news for Sheppard... Our back 6 looks locked in. Based on what, i'm not so sure. Sorry Shepp, that's what happens when you get drafted by a top 4 team. Just got to bide your time.
 

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#16
Running half backs are what you need.

The ball will often spill free if the opposition cannot get a mark from a long bomb inside 50m.

Waters did all the leg work against the bombers with 8 rebound 50s.

If the mids and forwards need to drop back to help too much they are going to have some last quarter fadeouts.
 

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#17
Hams is a defender.
He's also a midget, he gets away with being a defender in the WAFL because he reads the play so well and often takes front possy to take a grab.

In the AFL it's a different story, he's simply too small to play as a backman.

Any opposition coach with half a brain would isolate Hams in the forward line and tell his blokes to kick it on his forwards head, all they'd have to do is extend their hands and it's a free kick for an arm chop every day of the week.
 

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#18
Who should Sheppard replace in our back 6, and why?
At this stage, i would say Jones or Butler. Not that either are doing a 'bad' job... I just don't think the team is in a position to keep rewarding experience over the possibility of potential. I also believe 'rebound' to be one of the most important factors in a successful team and Sheppard's kicking and run is high level.

Most people can see Sheppard has the quality to be a top line AFL player... obviously that's why we took him. So if he's performing in WAFL, then developing him in AFL is the next step. If it means someone seems unlucky, then fair enough because we are hardly a top team at this stage. Surely we should take the opp. to develop these guys whilst we are not making a serious charge at finals.
 
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#19
At this stage, i would say Jones or Butler. Not that either are doing a 'bad' job... I just don't think the team is in a position to keep rewarding experience over the possibility of potential. I also believe 'rebound' to be one of the most important factors in a successful team and Sheppard's kicking and run is high level.

Most people can see Sheppard has the quality to be a top line AFL player... obviously that's why we took him. So if he's performing in WAFL, then developing him in AFL is the next step. If it means someone seems unlucky, then fair enough because we are hardly a top team at this stage. Surely we should take the opp. to develop these guys whilst we are not making a serious charge at finals.
No, not Butler. He has been outstanding since moving back and plays tight, has a football brain and great disposal. Added to that he's not exactly a veteran. When it comes to versatility, Jones can play tall & has been OK the last two weeks.

Butler (& Jones for that matter) can play back pocket to allow Shep to play a flank but I certainly wouldn't replace him.
 

West123

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#20
Alot of the good teams play 3 talls.

Lake - Morris - Hargrave/Williams
Dawson - Blake - Fisher/Gilbert
Etc etc.

The problem is our talls are so deficient in using the ball and beside Hurn kicking it 60 meters so are our smalls. We need quality users of the ball like the Gilbee/Harbrow combo as well as more reliable talls.

I think alot of our crappy inside 50's are because the mids are having to work back too much to help bring the ball out of defense. It's a flow on effect.
 

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#22
Who should Sheppard replace in our back 6, and why?
Nobody.

Still a player like Sheppard, Hams or McGinnity can certainly rotate through there.

Don't know if you agree but ignoring matchups thats probably our best back 6 at the mo.

Brown or Mackenzie could still end up fulfilling a KP role, I'm just going on form this season.
 

DivideandMultiply

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#23
Running half backs are what you need.

The ball will often spill free if the opposition cannot get a mark from a long bomb inside 50m.

Waters did all the leg work against the bombers with 8 rebound 50s.

If the mids and forwards need to drop back to help too much they are going to have some last quarter fadeouts.
I agree.

Our best games last season were when we had Butler, Hurn, Brown and yes even Spangher all firing in our backline.

Problem is we havnt had a settled back 6 yet this year.

When Butler returns I would expect Hurn, Waters, Butler and Schofield to provide a fair bit of rebound and run out of defence.

Young guys like Sheppard, McGinnity or Smith who may rotate through there as the year progresses all adress this need. All we have to worry about from them is disposal/decision making.
 

The Passenger

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#24
haven't read this thread but will because it's an interesting point, but the point i want to make is that st kilda's defence is lauded as one of the best defences of all-time but look how tall it is - Gilbert, Blake, Goddard, Dawson and Fisher are all 190cm+ Gram is usually the other one back there and he is 185ish cm
 

DivideandMultiply

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#25
haven't read this thread but will because it's an interesting point, but the point i want to make is that st kilda's defence is lauded as one of the best defences of all-time but look how tall it is - Gilbert, Blake, Goddard, Dawson and Fisher are all 190cm+ Gram is usually the other one back there and he is 185ish cm
Personally I think it's Saint Kildas playing style and defensive efforts all over the ground which make their defence seem more effective.

That said, look at Gilbert, Goddard, Gram all sensational rebound/attacking backmen.
 
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