Our Development Into A Contender

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#26
i havent seen this game as yet so cant comment on player performances.

imo i think we have one of the worst lists in the comp. thats not to say we dont have promising players coming thru we do and we may even have more than i think. but these kids need to develop. this takes time.

now i dont want this to become a bag fest of the team or a criticism after a win. bloody good on em a few wins wont hurt em.

but we have been here every yr for the past 5 yrs.
a couple of wins and all must be well at the club and with the list.

the reality is we won a game against a side that was injury riddled has won just five games and lost their last 7 or 8 games in a row.

we beat wce quite convincingly in a game where most actually would have picked us to win. how many have the coasters won since 07 15 of what 70 odd games.

the other win against port where are they how many in a row have they lost 8 or so. good sides dont lose that many games in a row.

like i said im not having a go at em all you can do is go out and win against what the opposition put up. but to see threads like this where we are a contender well its plain ridiculous.

i can understand the optimism this time around. unlike previous yrs we have had a couple of wins primarily on the back of some promising kids. but sheesh perspective is something that is totally lacking with our supporters.

by all means enjoy the wins when they come, god knows they have been far and few between. but lets not lose sight of the amount of work that still has to be done we are nowhere near being a contender.

in fact we are a bottom 4 side who has taken some baby steps in the right direction.
rather than sitting back on what we have done thus far we need to build and significantly improve on many of the players on the list.
A very good analysis.


I've bolded some points for extra discussion.
  1. Agreed, it will take time to develop the kids and we will have a couple more years like this one as we develop them. But as you allude to later on, our wins have come off the back of these kids, not off the superhuman effort of a Richo, or the smartness of a Bowden. This makes these wins different to those that have occurred in previous years. We had 4 first year players playing on Saturday (martin, nason, astbury, griffiths ) and a lot of other players with less than 50 games experience (collins, connors, cotchin, farmer, graham, king) many of whom were in the votes in the votes thread. We can take heart in this.
  2. Not all is well with the list. Names like Thomson, McMahon and Hislop still need to be cut. But this is where it becomes more interesting, at the start of the season delisting a king or a white and drafting some unknown kid would have made a great deal of sense. As they couldn't be much worse and could be a lot better. Now they are showing some form that suggests they could be depth players at least, maybe even more. Which raises the question do you get rid of them in the hope of getting something better but potentially making us weaker, or do you keep them for depth? Our trading as much as our drafting at the end of this season will impact whether we kick on or not.
  3. Rightly at the moment we are a bottom 4 side. One month ago we were wooden spooners elect. I don't believe that any of the other sides are tanking yet (though the demons are tantalising poised on 4.5 wins;)) so if we get off the bottom in the next few weeks it will be a true reflection of where the list is at.
  4. "rather than sitting back on what we have done thus far we need to build" couldn't have said it better myself.
 

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Tigersman

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#27
Clearly our list is one of the weakest in the league right now. Anyone thinking otherwise on the back of a few wins against bottom 4 sides is kidding themselves. I just hope we dont start racking up wins in the last half of the season against sides that have put the cue in the rack for 2010. moving up the ladder to 13th or 14th would not help us at all. Its a crap system that has fans questioning the value of the team winning more games this early in the year.
 

coke_zero

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#28
We totally lack depth except for kids who are waitng to get their run in the big time. I mean no discredit to Post, Morton, Webberley, Nahas etc but they aren't exactly bubbling with talent.
Post can play at either end, Looked good last year and will get some games soon. Morton we know he has talent just needs to add more presure and get himself into games when he has gone missing. I really like Webberley his first few games where not to great but he has looked good lately. And Nahas can be alright one game then have no impact the next 2. We need to fix that or he is gone.
 

amcre

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#29
LMAO, that is ridiculous. Especially Gourdis in for Thursfield. Where is all the love for Gourdis coming from? Why does everyone think he is a level above? Thursfield is miles better than Gourdis.

Santa claws' post was good but this thread wasn't made to say we are contenders, it was more to discuss our development to become one, well thats what I got from the title anyway.

We are obviously behind many other teams, but things change quickly, look at Freo, Adelaide and Sydney, etc. They've all had seasons no one could have predicted.
Matt White is essentially playing the same position for Richmond at the moment as Paul Chapman does for Geelong. Now look at the difference in skill and talent there. He has been playing really well but we still need to make some hard decisions and he probably now may have some sort of trade value. We need a HFF with skill and a few tricks, which White doesn't have.

As for Gourdis his pre season form was awesome and tbh he should have been promoted ahead of both Relton and Polak. He is 195cm, quick and has a huge vertical leap. We can't win a premiership with undersized FB like Thursfield, sorry if you think that you are way off the mark. Plus Gourdis I have noticed gets a bit of the ball going the other way and takes plenty of contested marks, Thursfield does neither. THursfield is a decent defender who is always batting above his weight and provides nothing going the other way, we have to upgrade his position or else we will go no where.
 

CoggaRules

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#30
now i dont want this to become a bag fest of the team or a criticism after a win. bloody good on em a few wins wont hurt em.

but we have been here every yr for the past 5 yrs.
a couple of wins and all must be well at the club and with the list
.

the reality is we won a game against a side that was injury riddled has won just five games and lost their last 7 or 8 games in a row.

we beat wce quite convincingly in a game where most actually would have picked us to win. how many have the coasters won since 07 15 of what 70 odd games.

the other win against port where are they how many in a row have they lost 8 or so. good sides dont lose that many games in a row.

like i said im not having a go at em all you can do is go out and win against what the opposition put up. but to see threads like this where we are a contender well its plain ridiculous.

i can understand the optimism this time around. unlike previous yrs we have had a couple of wins primarily on the back of some promising kids. but sheesh perspective is something that is totally lacking with our supporters.
You need to get a bit of perspective dude. Yes we have been in the same place for the last 5 years and yes we have been dealt a good dose of reality.
But yes also, that you are looking at what has transpired, and thinking it will again, when we havent had the test as yet.
The real deal is that we have improved from shitful to where we are now. 3 wins in the last 4 games. Next game is against the Swans and then we come up againt Freo. Reality time is about to be put the the test, the only way you can have that test is to put yourself in the position to do it.
Bottom line is that if and i understand its a big if, but if they somehow get over the swans, that makes it 3 on the trot and 2 of them were "suspected" contenders. Thats not like the last 5 years. It might pan out the same, but we know where we are at this year. But if you look at it, these are the 2 sides where our team went missing against, when they played them in those must win games under TW. Lets see what unfolds and then review what the deal is. ;)
 

Wallaby

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#31
I love optimists - you blokes are fun to be around.

But some of you need a few cups of coffee to sober up.

We have beaten the three worst teams in the league right now.

We have some promising kids - so does every club. The reason you don't see as many for St Kilda and Geelong is their side is so good, there are no positions to experiment with.

Griffiths is going to be our big go-to forward, freeing up Riewoldt. So far he's had 12 touches in 3 games. Cleve Hughes was more impressive in his first 3 games, and he was the U18 AA CHF.

I could go on, but you get the point.

I am enjoying the wins (much more than the losses), but I've been here before. Jurica, Coughlan, Hogg, Tambling, Oakley-Nicholls, Plapp(!), Fiora, - all champs who were going to lead us to the promised land. I could dig up some embarassing Tom Roach threads. Not to mention Frawley and Wallace (and Gieschen - 'Unleash the Giesch!').

I will applaud players as much as anybody - based on what they do, not what they might do. I've learnt the hard way about the prediction game in AFL.
 

santa claws

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#32
Reading this makes me wonder if you have seen any of our games at all. Especially the last 6-7 weeks. We have at least half a dozen that will go, but they havnt really been prominent in our recent form anyway. To say we have one of the worst lists in the comp is a joke.
so you rate the list on the back of mostly unproven under 22 yr olds. all clubs can rate their list highly in this manner.do we have PROMISING UNDER 22YR OLDS YES. ALL CLUBS DO.

look given that in the main if you are 22 you have been in a system for 4 yrs or are in your 4th yr that to me is plenty of time for players to step up and show at the least that they will be afl players.

rate those who are 22 or over
cousins - quality but very short term we have to find a replacement of equal quality to remain where we are at with our midfield.

deledio - another quality player and the future.

foley - a solid good/vg player

graham - ordinary/average. atm hes everyones cup of tea we need to do better imo. the simple fact is hes needed right now.

hislop - ordinary

jackson - average imo now a keeper.

king - ordinary

mcguane - ordinary

mcmahon - ordinary

morton - average.

nahas - ordinary

newman - solid player

polak - ordinary

polo - ordinary

roberts - ordinary though skilled.

simmonds - retired

tambling - average

thomson - ordinary

thursfield - average

tuck - many deficiencies but a solid player

white - ordinary

go compare that lot to other teams 22 and olders it does not stack up. this group is supposed to be the group leading the kids and in their prime.

how many of the 21 and unders can you categorically say will make it to be good to vg afl players. how many of them are concerns atm. how many have worrying deficiencies. mate we are in the early stages of rebuild the reality is we have an ordinary list with much to be done to make it a good list we are on the bottom of the ladder for a reason. its not because we have no kids its because we lack decent above 22yr old players.

is the list improving well i think yes especially at the bottom end of the age spectrum. i think i would rather say the list now has the potential on it to improve with much to be done. this yr is just a beginning.

i dont want to be a negative nellie and like everyone else i think we are going down the right path but we need to stay on the path and remain patient. we need to go thru the right processes we have been here at this exact point many times over the past 8 or 9 seasons.
im hoping like hell we have learnt some lessons from our past and take the right fork in the road this time around.
 

Bazzar

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#35
not yet. very busy weekend will pick the eyes out of it when i get a decent chance.
Well Gus was close to BOG. He has also climbed to 5th in the league for eff hitouts. Looking now like anything but ordinary. It appears Gus just like most of our players are starting to play more to their potential and are getting better and better by the week.
 

amcre

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#36
I was extremely anti Gus but he was easily our BOG on the weekend and I think it is ridiculous to write him off as ordinary. His HO are ok but his work around the ground is what sets him apart. LOVING THE GUSSSSSSSSSSSS
 

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Dr Tigris

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#37
I take this topic as beign that we are heading toward beign a contender, and the development looks good atm. I'll agreee with that, and the guys saying we are still a bottom team beating bottom teams. The things that I do think look good for us are that we are youngest and lightest team in the AFL. That will change automatically over the next few years, and older players tend to be better. We have finally started to get a decent structure. We have some young ruckmen, and KPFs back and forward. For a while we looked like having a squad with only Richo up forward. Given where we are now it is 1) development of the current players and upgrading of some guys with better options that is needed and 2) making the game plan ingrained. I reckon our core midfield group could be great - potentially top 4. Forward line could develop to be top 4 if JR is a good as he looks and Griffiths comes on, with some decent smalls. The back line and rucks look OK, but not great. That is a top 8 team potentially.

The problem is that so much of it is potential. I'm pretty much sure we will get better, but will it be to contender status, or only to a 5-8 position team? This is where the caution is. Traditionally the RFC has screwed it up when in this sort of position. This time I suspect we are doing it right. Good drafting recently, development seems to have improved, the game plan makes more sense, and we are making money with good management.

But it will take 2-3 years before we know whether this is a false dawn, again, or we are the real deal. It's sort of great to argue the point now, but we really are not even in Geelong's class. Until we are near there we are just making up the numbers. Our squad will not be physically there for a few years. So I hope the club is focussed on development of the game plan, squad and players rather than maximising our current situation. I expect about 10 more to go this year, and a similar set of selectinos to last year. I don't want to see us keeping marginal players just because. Trade and upgrade, and build to win a premiership.
 

blaisee

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#38
so you rate the list on the back of mostly unproven under 22 yr olds. all clubs can rate their list highly in this manner.do we have PROMISING UNDER 22YR OLDS YES. ALL CLUBS DO.

look given that in the main if you are 22 you have been in a system for 4 yrs or are in your 4th yr that to me is plenty of time for players to step up and show at the least that they will be afl players.

rate those who are 22 or over
cousins - quality but very short term we have to find a replacement of equal quality to remain where we are at with our midfield.

deledio - another quality player and the future.

foley - a solid good/vg player

graham - ordinary/average. atm hes everyones cup of tea we need to do better imo. the simple fact is hes needed right now.

hislop - ordinary

jackson - average imo now a keeper.

king - ordinary

mcguane - ordinary

mcmahon - ordinary

morton - average.

nahas - ordinary

newman - solid player

polak - ordinary

polo - ordinary

roberts - ordinary though skilled.

simmonds - retired

tambling - average

thomson - ordinary

thursfield - average

tuck - many deficiencies but a solid player

white - ordinary

go compare that lot to other teams 22 and olders it does not stack up. this group is supposed to be the group leading the kids and in their prime.

how many of the 21 and unders can you categorically say will make it to be good to vg afl players. how many of them are concerns atm. how many have worrying deficiencies. mate we are in the early stages of rebuild the reality is we have an ordinary list with much to be done to make it a good list we are on the bottom of the ladder for a reason. its not because we have no kids its because we lack decent above 22yr old players.

is the list improving well i think yes especially at the bottom end of the age spectrum. i think i would rather say the list now has the potential on it to improve with much to be done. this yr is just a beginning.

i dont want to be a negative nellie and like everyone else i think we are going down the right path but we need to stay on the path and remain patient. we need to go thru the right processes we have been here at this exact point many times over the past 8 or 9 seasons.
im hoping like hell we have learnt some lessons from our past and take the right fork in the road this time around.
dont disagree with too many of the above but the exciting thing is

edwards
collins
connors

have all improved a heap and look like they still have a heap of improvement left in them
 
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#39
Spot on Santa...some people need to see the list right in front of their eyes. (unfortunately many here will still have those odd coloured glasses!!)
At least 13 on your list are at, or past, their best and when compared to top 4 sides, would be lucky to be emergencies. I will disagree on Gus. In the last few weeks he has shown he can play at the level. Taking contested marks...moving around the ground and with his size, holding his own in the ruck contests!

Would love another cleanout at bring in at least 9-10 more kids even if we have to go to the SANFL or WAFL to find them!!
 

amcre

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#40
so you rate the list on the back of mostly unproven under 22 yr olds. all clubs can rate their list highly in this manner.do we have PROMISING UNDER 22YR OLDS YES. ALL CLUBS DO.

look given that in the main if you are 22 you have been in a system for 4 yrs or are in your 4th yr that to me is plenty of time for players to step up and show at the least that they will be afl players.

rate those who are 22 or over
cousins - quality but very short term we have to find a replacement of equal quality to remain where we are at with our midfield.

deledio - another quality player and the future.

foley - a solid good/vg player

graham - ordinary/average. atm hes everyones cup of tea we need to do better imo. the simple fact is hes needed right now.

hislop - ordinary - Delist

jackson - average imo now a keeper.

king - ordinary - Delist

mcguane - ordinary

mcmahon - ordinary - Delist

morton - average.

nahas - ordinary

newman - solid player

polak - ordinary

polo - ordinary - Delist

roberts - ordinary though skilled.

simmonds - retired

tambling - average

thomson - ordinary - Delist

thursfield - average - Trade

tuck - many deficiencies but a solid player

white - ordinary - Delist

go compare that lot to other teams 22 and olders it does not stack up. this group is supposed to be the group leading the kids and in their prime.

how many of the 21 and unders can you categorically say will make it to be good to vg afl players. how many of them are concerns atm. how many have worrying deficiencies. mate we are in the early stages of rebuild the reality is we have an ordinary list with much to be done to make it a good list we are on the bottom of the ladder for a reason. its not because we have no kids its because we lack decent above 22yr old players.

is the list improving well i think yes especially at the bottom end of the age spectrum. i think i would rather say the list now has the potential on it to improve with much to be done. this yr is just a beginning.

i dont want to be a negative nellie and like everyone else i think we are going down the right path but we need to stay on the path and remain patient. we need to go thru the right processes we have been here at this exact point many times over the past 8 or 9 seasons.
im hoping like hell we have learnt some lessons from our past and take the right fork in the road this time around.
Agree with most of the guys you threw up.

I think the quicker we move them on and replace with young talent the better we will be in the long run.
 
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Thread starter #41
- We may as well compare our midfield to the benchmark which is fast turning into one of the best of all time. This list includes all players from both clubs who participate in the engine room (that will be there/have been there when challenging for a flag)

Geelong Midfield: Ablett, Bartell, Kelly, Corey, Hogan, Ling, Selwood, Duncan, Chapman.
Richmond Midfield: Collins, Cotchin, Deledio, Foley, Jackson, Martin, Tambling, Edwards, White and Nason (maybes)

- The names underlined above are A-B Graders at their peaks, in essence very good players that are in premiership midfields.

Now as far as i'm concerned we are 2 elite midfielers off having a premiership midfield. That would mean getting an extra A and B grader.
 

Bazzar

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#42
These 7 are crucial to our team and future.

Deledio - Gun.
Foley - When fit an excitement machine. Any club would love him.
Graham - Each week he grows a notch and surprises. ATM looks like our best ruck prospect for years.
Jackson - Above average, hard as nails and a natural leader. Absolute keeper.
Mcguane - Tough as nails. Our best Key backman.
Newman - Very underrated. Gun player, fantastic Captain.
Tuck - Almost the backbone of the selected team. Has been super this year. Vying with lids for B&F


King - Having a purple patch. Will be kept. Good bench/Emg player for next year or two whilst we are in transition.

Matty White to me is borderline, he could go either way. Become a star or peak around where he is now and end up in the group below. He definetly has what it takes to be part of our long term future.

These three have what it takes, but need to take it up a few levels. if they dont they are in trouble and wont have a long term future with the club.

Tambling - When he is on song, superb talent, but when not can be very ordinary. ATM he is more ordinary than good.
Thursfield - The most vunerable of the 3 key backs. Still good and does the job, but much the same as the other two.
Nahas - Very, very good at times, but just not consistant enough.



The 7 below havnt contributed to our recent form and are more than likely headed for the chopping block. Only Morton has what it takes to survive if he can get his shit together. Hope he does as he could be our forward line x-factor.


Hislop - Ordinary, but the jury is out for mine
Polak - Ordinary AFL level
Polo - Ordinary at AFL level
Roberts - Ordinary though skilled.
Thomson - Ordinary
Morton - Average one day, brilliant the next.
mcmahon - Ordinary
 

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#44
After just over half a season under Hardwick this is how I currently see our list:

Elite/Potentially Elite: Deledio Martin Riewoldt Cotchin Foley
Core List: Jackson Tuck Newman McGuane Moore Cousins Morton Tambling
Rapidly Improving: Graham Edwards White Nason Vickery Connors Collins Farmer
In Development: Griffiths Astbury Webberley Dea Taylor Post Browne Grimes Gourdis Contin Hicks O'Rielly Westhoff
Question Marks: King Thursfield Polo Nahas Gilligan Roberts Polak Rance
Finished: Simmonds McMahon Thomson Hislop

Just a few points:
People might raise an eyebrow at McGuane being rated as core list as many don't like his poorish skills, but I've really liked what I've seen from McGuane this season and I think he is an integeral part of our backline. Sometimes being able to shut down an opponent is more important that racking up a heap of possessions.

I also believe that Tambling is a core list player. He isn't going to be a superstar like we all thought when he was drafted but he will be a more than handy 10 year player for the club.

By the end of next season, I'm expecting at least half na dozen of the rapidly improving group to have moved into the core list group. While another 3-4 of the In Development group should also make the move into the group. That would see us head into the 2012 season, a year that I expect us to play finals, with 5 elite/potentially elite and up to 15 core list players(assuming Cousins has retired by then). That doesn't take into account what happens with any draftees we pick up over the next 2 years either.

Funnily enough 2012 is also the year that the club expects to make finals for the first time under the 3-0-75 plan.

Make no mistake, we're coming out of the tunnel and the light is getting brighter each week. Sure there are some questions that still have to be answered but I expect we will have those questions answered over the next 18 months.
 
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#45
Not trying to be a smart*rse here but what is the difference between an 'ordinary' player and an 'average' player????
 

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#46
What excites me is that we can go into the next month with real hope of competing and even winning against some good teams. No, we're not even close to where we want to be yet, but we're seeing some signs that we're on the right track and the season isn't a complete write-off.
 

santa claws

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#47
Well Gus was close to BOG. He has also climbed to 5th in the league for eff hitouts. Looking now like anything but ordinary. It appears Gus just like most of our players are starting to play more to their potential and are getting better and better by the week.
hoping to watch the game later tonight on graham hes been servicable if he proves me wrong it wont be the first time im proven wrong.
lets see if he can maintain it.
even if he does prove me wrong my thinking is still to go after another ruckman 22 thru 25 would also like to at least rookie another as well. ruckman are good currency we need to get in on this fact.
 

Bifrost

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#48
Look, when I read the topic of this thread, I read it as a contender for the future. I couldn't believe that anyone would believe us a contender this year or next year for a finals spot (never mind a Premiership) and I still don't think anyone is still that high on South Australian rain.

We may have a list full of names few have heard of or names which many associate with success in the VFL, but what we do have, what we have shown over the past 6 weeks and what I feel has been generated in our players since Damien Hardwick took charge is:
  • Work ethic (hard running; tackling; smothering - and particularly smothering from the last few weeks)
  • Belief (which has resulted in a greater desire for the footy)
  • Team-first mentality (how many Tigers were in the melee on the weekend? I counted pretty much the whole side backing up Kingy - THAT is what we want to see)
  • On-field structures which put pressure on the opposition and work to our team's strengths

None of this stuff requires Gary Ablett Jnr., Jimmy Bartel, Joel Corey, Joel Selwood and Cameron Ling in the midfield, but it has been winning us games and enhancing what is probably the most important one of all:

Belief.

I don't think anyone - ANYONE - can look at a list with players as young as ours and know that it's a list with more passengers than drivers. Most of the kids we've played this year have shown something, whether it's attitude, raw talent, polish or just the will to take the game on. And what is wrong with Matt White? Jesus that kid has some guts and some go. He's not likely to be a Brownlow Medal contender, but how many hard-working players out there are? Brett Kirk was never winning a Brownlow, he can't kick, he can't even run, but he is one of the most important players for a club in the league.

Remember folks, a list simply cannot contain a laundry list of superstars. Geelong is as close as it gets and they have maybe 1 top-line forward (Johnson). Possibly 2 if you count Pods this year.
 

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#49
hoping to watch the game later tonight on graham hes been servicable if he proves me wrong it wont be the first time im proven wrong.
lets see if he can maintain it.
even if he does prove me wrong my thinking is still to go after another ruckman 22 thru 25 would also like to at least rookie another as well. ruckman are good currency we need to get in on this fact.
Well it has been noted that certain coaches *cough*Roos*cough* have never actually recruited a rookie ruckman and have instead paid for established players from other clubs (Ball, Jolly, Everitt, Seaby, Mumford). Are other coaches all just stupid for not doing this and are we stupid enough to just become a ruckman stud farm?
 

Dr Tigris

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#50
Following on from Bifrost, if this is about where we are now - then it's bottom three.

If its about where we can be going then it's much better. We have the youngest and lightest squad in the league, that means two things 1) we'll get beaten up by more experienced players of equal talent, and 2) we'll get bigger and more experienced. Our squad structure (talls, mids, kicking skills etc) is much better than it has been for a long time. I doubt anyone thinks we won't cull heavily again, I hope so. But the new guys will be coming into a team that is at least competitive and getting better. From here its all about building quality through drafting and development of players and the team side. This year most seem pretty happy with the development of individuals and how the team is shaping.

Trashing the squad as being among the worst is true right now, but for potential we are doing well. Yes, every team has good youngsters, but we have more and some are among our best players already. Teams like Adelaide, Sydney and even North face a problem of age. The Frawley years left us with a huge hole in a certain age bracket, that no other team faced. The Wallace/Miller years did little to fill that hole. It's now being filled by Lids etc coming through. No other team has this structure - which shows something about how poor the squad was built from around 10 years ago. The teams full of experienced bodies will drop, but they all have youngsters to fill that hole. For them it is how they blend the young and old - currently Adeleiade looks like having done it poorly, but I would never write Adelaide off. Brisbane has tried a mature list to win one now, and they look like having gone bust. We are an experiment in building a team from scratch, which no sane list manager would try to do. Even Gold Coast looks like having more mature bodies in their first year than we have had recently. The good bit is that we will have a group coming through together. If we can get some Sydney type attitude and some Geelong type skills then we might be a contender. But we won't know for at least two years how it is really going. When we have a mature squad then we'll know. Currently this debate is about conjectures about opinions about things that are yet to happen.
 
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