Our Forward line

[Scham]

Question you need to ask then is what has happened since 2015?

Has it become harder to defend, or have teams just go better at attacking - in 2015 we managed 1847 points for across the season and finished on top of the ladder 2 points clear after 22 rounds.

And then failed in the finals.

Who knows? Ross and his coaches do including the ones who aren't with us anymore. Some of the players will know.

We obviously had a very experienced team that'd played a lot of footy together so we had continuity but our ball movement especially in the early part of 2015 was sensational and the forward line was efficient. Who was our forward line coach that year?

Everything seemed to go to s**t after that season. We brought in new assistants and forced Ross to take a step back and delegate more which he seemed to take too far rarely turning up to preseason training and when he did he sat up on the scoreboard sun baking. Sumich was moved out of the assistant coaches and then left. So we were left with a group of assistants some of which were extremely inexperienced, running the show. It unsurprisingly failed. How it was allowed to take place I'll never know and we've struggled to recover since.

Our coaches seem to be battling with a balance of defence and attack. Where others have been able to generate enough scoring opportunities whilst still maintaining a high defensive effort, we havent been able to come up with a game plan suitable.

My personal opinion is that we don't have the appropriate coaching personnel or sports science personnel to achieve what we need. A premiership.

 

[Mincho]

And then failed in the finals.

Who knows? Ross and his coaches do including the ones who aren't with us anymore. Some of the players will know.

We obviously had a very experienced team that'd played a lot of footy together so we had continuity but our ball movement especially in the early part of 2015 was sensational and the forward line was efficient. Who was our forward line coach that year?

Everything seemed to go to s**t after that season. We brought in new assistants and forced Ross to take a step back and delegate more which he seemed to take too far rarely turning up to preseason training and when he did he sat up on the scoreboard sun baking. Sumich was moved out of the assistant coaches and then left. So we were left with a group of assistants some of which were extremely inexperienced, running the show. It unsurprisingly failed. How it was allowed to take place I'll never know and we've struggled to recover since.

Our coaches seem to be battling with a balance of defence and attack. Where others have been able to generate enough scoring opportunities whilst still maintaining a high defensive effort, we havent been able to come up with a game plan suitable.

My personal opinion is that we don't have the appropriate coaching personnel or sports science personnel to achieve what we need. A premiership.

Something happened at the back end of 2015 - the most glaring was the rule changes regarding deleberat out of bounds - stoppages dropped and rolling maul midfields were overtaken by spread.

Adapt or die.

 

[heavho]

Feel forwardline in 2018 has and could have a lot of potential. Sandilands could be used down there more this coming year with Darcy used more as the Ruckman. Alex Pearce could be used down there if he recovers from his injury as the swingman if match ups down back are covered. We have bennell potentially 100% and if we pick up a decent mid at pick 2 Fyfe could have more stints down forward.



Bennell Fyfe. A Pearce

Walters. Sandilands. Ballantyne


Wouldn’t mind seeing forward half like this at some stage. Even mundy floating down ther. Or Johnson

 

[M_rash]

Feel forwardline in 2018 has and could have a lot of potential. Sandilands could be used down there more this coming year with Darcy used more as the Ruckman. Alex Pearce could be used down there if he recovers from his injury as the swingman if match ups down back are covered. We have bennell potentially 100% and if we pick up a decent mid at pick 2 Fyfe could have more stints down forward.



Bennell Fyfe. A Pearce

Walters. Sandilands. Ballantyne


Wouldn’t mind seeing forward half like this at some stage. Even mundy floating down ther. Or Johnson

I think our best option is to play forwards forward, and not have too many players trying to fill a roll. Need some versatility for when it’s not quite working, but would love to see a fairly settled forward six.

Walters McCarthy Bennell
Matera Tabs Cox/Kersten/Ballas/Pick2or5

That final spot in the forward line is very much up for grabs imho. Could go tall (even Ape tall) or small - or it could be the resting midfield rotation (Fyfe, Mundy, Langdon). But would love to see the other 5 get 10 or so games together to see if they can gel.

 

[wayToGo_]

C Bennell Fyfe BHill
HF Rayner Fogarty Walters
F Matera Taberner McCarthy

 

[Admiral Byng]

Please not Sandilands as a forward.

I think we need to go smallish rather than tallish. Speed, flair, skill - especially at HF. Work the ball forward rather than bomb it it long and hope "someone" will take a mark. Switch, transfer, play-on, handpass, carry and run the ball up toward forward 50. Constant movement trying to kick it low to a player on the lead inside 50, and if that option doesn't present then work a running shot from the 50. But a genuine shot for goal, not a plop to the pack 20m out.

We've got plenty of players that can kick a goal on the run from 50. give them licence to have a ping.

Stuff the percentages, I'd rather we kick 13.20 than 11.9

 

[Fred Ziffel]

The first thing I would do is play a six man forward line.
Incidentally, we won 4 games in 2016 and in each of those wins we played a six man forward line.

 

[Docker Alyssa]

Methinks your bias is clouding your perception -- Taberner is the leading contested marker (by average per game) for 2017;

2017 AFL League Contested Marks Per Game Leaders (Minimum 5 Games Played)
1 Matthew Taberner Fremantle 8 4 v Essendon, Round 23 2.75
2 Charlie Dixon Port Adelaide 23 3 v West Coast, Elimination Final 2.57
3 Cale Hooker Essendon 20 4 v Gold Coast, Round 22 2.55
4 Jeremy McGovern West Coast 24 4 v GWS, Semi Final 2.54
5 Levi Casboult Carlton 22 2 v Sydney, Round 23 2.36

Yeah.. But whats the use in having a good mark that has no presence, aggressive at a contest, or even composure in front of goals; and is on the fringe season after season because the faults outweigh the pros? When he had Pavlich around him is really the only time Tabener looked like he benefit our team, and 2015, especially, his consistency did win us a lot of games.

Last year our best games were when Kersten and McCarthy were both firing after a few shaky games early they had a decent run of games. And that was both their first seasons with each other and us. I think we have to play those 2 talls (the above mentioned) every game and mosquito fleet the rest like Richmond, with Fyfe one outing 40% gametime. F#$k Tabs. Sorry!

 

[Carson Dial]

Yeah.. But whats the use in having a good mark that has no presence, aggressive at a contest, or even composure in front of goals; and is on the fringe season after season because the faults outweigh the pros? When he had Pavlich around him is really the only time Tabener looked like he benefit our team, and 2015, especially, his consistency did win us a lot of games.

Last year our best games were when Kersten and McCarthy were both firing after a few shaky games early they had a decent run of games. And that was both their first seasons with each other and us. I think we have to play those 2 talls (the above mentioned) every game and mosquito fleet the rest like Richmond, with Fyfe one outing 40% gametime. F#$k Tabs. Sorry!

Ok so what’s the pass mark for Tabs as far as goals go for 2018? 40?

 

[Scham]

Ok so what’s the pass mark for Tabs as far as goals go for 2018? 40?

Just want consistent strong efforts throughout games and across multiple games. Wet or dry. Home or away. Strong opponent or weak. No excuses.

 

[M_rash]

Ok so what’s the pass mark for Tabs as far as goals go for 2018? 40?

2 goals a game average should be fair. He may play less than 20 games, so to set a fixed number of goals isn’t fair.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Yeah.. But whats the use in having a good mark that has no presence, aggressive at a contest, or even composure in front of goals; and is on the fringe season after season because the faults outweigh the pros? When he had Pavlich around him is really the only time Tabener looked like he benefit our team, and 2015, especially, his consistency did win us a lot of games.

Last year our best games were when Kersten and McCarthy were both firing after a few shaky games early they had a decent run of games. And that was both their first seasons with each other and us. I think we have to play those 2 talls (the above mentioned) every game and mosquito fleet the rest like Richmond, with Fyfe one outing 40% gametime. F#$k Tabs. Sorry!

I think we'll agree to disagree, but I would note the following as a right of reply

Composure. Tabs kicked 11.6 - that's composed . Yes there were some very notable spudding it up, from someone that would be under a lot of pressure given the yo-yo in and out of the team factor. But some of those going to water moments are amongst the 6 behinds, so from my perspective I prefer the conversion rate of Tabs - or Walters/Bennell, I'd rather any of those 3 are the ones with the ball in hand when lining up for goal.

Of all the combinations we can have in the forward line, Cam/Kersten and smalls is probably our worst.. They are not the players to bring the ball to ground for the mosquitos to take advantage of, comprehensively outmarked in a pack environment - not a knock on their personal skills, just a pure outsized by monster defender issue. Hate Tabs all you want, but if he doesn't mark it, he evens up the contest and gives the smalls a chance by bringing the ball to ground - for that matter, Apeness, Cox and even Logue would be the ones in place of Tabs to bring the smalls in to play.

Aggression. I would pay that for other years, but he showed a bit of mongrel this year.

 

[wayToGo_]

Hate Tabs all you want, but if he doesn't mark it, he evens up the contest and gives the smalls a chance by bringing the ball to ground

Unfortunately he doesn't though. He only had 2 goals assists total across his 8 games this year, and 2 total in 17 games last year. Whereas Apeness had 4 in 5 games, and Tanner Smith 4 in 2 games last year. It remains the reason I still doubt he's our long term KPF solution. Good KPFs not only hit the scoreboard themselves but create opportunities for their fellow forwards. Plenty also suggested he made Pav's life easier but Pav actually scored more when Taberner wasn't playing.

It's not like it's something he can't change though - and I agree McCarthy and Kersten don't suit that role at all. The rest of his development has been great but it is frustrating that part of his game hasn't improved in the 5 years he's been on an AFL list.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Unfortunately he doesn't though. He only had 2 goals assists total across his 8 games this year, and 2 total in 17 games last year. Whereas Apeness had 4 in 5 games, and Tanner Smith 4 in 2 games last year. It remains the reason I still doubt he's our long term KPF solution.

It's not like it's something he can't change though - and I agree McCarthy and Kersten don't suit that role at all. The rest of his development has been great but it is frustrating that part of his game hasn't improved in the 5 years he's been on an AFL list.

Goal assists and bringing the ball to ground aren't the same thing.

I'm not saying he's the saviour of the forward line, just that we can only use the players we have, why I also suggested other possibilities to a Cam/Kersten forward line filled with mosquitos. Until we get a good kpf, we're going to continually see a mix of Cam/Tab/Kersten and other forwards in the chase for the whipping boy of the year award.

 

[wayToGo_]

Goal assists and bringing the ball to ground aren't the same thing.

Yeah I know but unfortunately there isn't a stat that shows it clearly. Goal assists does give some indication of how well forwards work together though including when a tall knocks it to a small for a score. I pay pretty close attention to Tabs bringing the ball to ground because imo it is the thing that he could do that would somewhat transform the effectiveness of our forward line - given we have some very talented smalls and even McCarthy is good crumber. When we have no-one bringing it down to the advantage of our smalls then none of our forwards are that effective.

I can only remember once this year where Taberner brought the ball down in the goal square to the advantage of one of our forwards. I'm pretty sure that was one of his two goal assists recorded. I remember my reaction at the time was "finally! yes!!!". It was late in the season so maybe he is bringing that more into his game? Crosses fingers. Unfortunately I'm not sure he has the awareness to know when to go for a mark and when to bring it to ground/tap it to a team mate, so he ends up contesting but goes to ground himself and the ball ends up with one of the defenders instead who leaves him in his dust exiting d50 in a paddock of space.

 

[Joao]

If Sonny, Bennell, Wilson, Shill and Billy stay fit and deliver the ball as they can then Tabs will kick 35 goals this year (assuming at least 20 games).

 

[freo1997]

If Sonny, Bennell, Wilson, Shill and Billy stay fit and deliver the ball as they can then Tabs will kick 35 goals this year (assuming at least 20 games).

If only it was that easy. Lets get him to kick 20 in a season then go from there.

 

[Joao]

If only it was that easy. Lets get him to kick 20 in a season then go from there.

Nah Tabs has got this.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Goal assists does give some indication of how well forwards work together though including when a tall knocks it to a small for a score.

I thought they just recorded handballs and kicks only for the goal assists. Using Pav as a benchmark, Since 2008 he gave 111 GA from 200 games, just over 1 every 2 games, Tabs at 1 in 4 games needs to lift it a bit as it's an indication as you say of how well the forwards work together.

Hopefully stuff clicks and coaches/players improve the functioning of the forward line, but I can't see a 2020 flag tilt without forward recruitment and a draftee 18 year old KPF won't be ready in time. If we haven't been successful at throwing money at free agent KPFs in the past it's not likely that we solve it in the next few seasons either

 

[Joao]

I thought they just recorded handballs and kicks only for the goal assists. Using Pav as a benchmark, Since 2008 he gave 111 GA from 200 games, just over 1 every 2 games, Tabs at 1 in 4 games needs to lift it a bit as it's an indication as you say of how well the forwards work together.

Hopefully stuff clicks and coaches/players improve the functioning of the forward line, but I can't see a 2020 flag tilt without forward recruitment and a draftee 18 year old KPF won't be ready in time. If we haven't been successful at throwing money at free agent KPFs in the past it's not likely that we solve it in the next few seasons either

IMO Ross will design the gameplan around the limitation and then adjust it if we do land a FA or draft a kid and he matures. Basically we have no choice.

Even someone like Tabs drawing the no1, taking the odd clunk (which he can do) and bringing it to ground sometimes might be enough if you get the medium/small forwards and midfield delivery right. Honestly it should be if we get Sonny, Bennell and the Hills firing. Also Wilson coming from deep.

We have enough midfield/half forward kicking class now to do some damage if the structures are right and forward obey them properly.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

I can't work them out either. They played Langdon injured until he completely broke down. Hilly was clearly playing injured too.

Sending Blakely back out was probably the worst though. What could we have possible gained from that?

We've been an injury factory for years. Keep churning and burning them out year after year.

 

[sherrif]

Please not Sandilands as a forward.

I think we need to go smallish rather than tallish. Speed, flair, skill - especially at HF. Work the ball forward rather than bomb it it long and hope "someone" will take a mark. Switch, transfer, play-on, handpass, carry and run the ball up toward forward 50. Constant movement trying to kick it low to a player on the lead inside 50, and if that option doesn't present then work a running shot from the 50. But a genuine shot for goal, not a plop to the pack 20m out.

We've got plenty of players that can kick a goal on the run from 50. give them licence to have a ping.

Stuff the percentages, I'd rather we kick 13.20 than 11.9

For what it is worth I think Sean Darcy will be a surprise packet up forward next year. If we get one of LDU, Dow or Rayner with pick 2 (highly likely) I think they will all start their career forward and would add something to a forward set-up in 2018.

 

[Admiral Byng]

For what it is worth I think Sean Darcy will be a surprise packet up forward next year. If we get one of LDU, Dow or Rayner with pick 2 (highly likely) I think they will all start their career forward and would add something to a forward set-up in 2018.

I'm not really concerned with the personnel but more with the tactics. IMHO I think the emphasis should be on mobility and movement rather than "bring the ball to ground in a dangerous position". I have completely lost faith in the latter tactic because good teams are so well drilled and disciplined in defence it becomes useless as an attacking option, and is more or less just a turnover, like a kick in rugby. Darcy might be slightly better at it than Tabs or McCarthy but it would still be the lowest percentage thing to try as a deliberate tactic, fine with me if he takes the odd pack mark here and there in general play, just don't make it the default go-to tactic.

 

[Purpellian Anchor]

I'm not really concerned with the personnel but more with the tactics. IMHO I think the emphasis should be on mobility and movement rather than "bring the ball to ground in a dangerous position". I have completely lost faith in the latter tactic because good teams are so well drilled and disciplined in defence it becomes useless as an attacking option, and is more or less just a turnover, like a kick in rugby.

Reckon this thread has some new currency for discussion re the above with the players selected, ruck forward and inside mids.

Good clever players in the guts may give us quite a few options once they get their hands on the ball and combined then out to either side as well as straigt down the guts. Think we have lacked in this area last few years. Dixon maybe a year away? Can see him straightening us up and giving the crumbers opportunity (seems good in this area of his game). How well could Jones and Meeks do if selected re forward pocket etc. We could easily see the likes of McCarthy, Kersten and Taberner getting direct hits from good delivery. Even an extra 4-5 in a game would make a difference. Thats my hope.

 

[theGav56]

I think we need to start with McCarthy and Taberner as our tall forward, unless Apeness has a magic preseason.

If we play Sandilands and Darcy that means no other talls in the forward line.

Play Cox from the bench as a Mr Fixit.