Roast Our goal kicking coach (Gia) is not working out....

Mar 15, 2012
10,877
25,705
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
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Footscray, Melbourne City
Are the Saints more accurate than us?
Everyone except Carlton, Brisbane and Essendon are better than us.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...g/news-story/1ac2daa5a7b146f78c21d31359f16d9b

STRAIGHT SHOOTERS (Best, Worst)

1. GWS GIANTS (+5%): Steve Johnson +12.5%, Jonathon Patton -11.7%

2. SYDNEY (+3.9%): Lance Franklin +10%, Tom Papley -13.9%

3. HAWTHORN (+3%): Cyril Rioli +21.3%, Luke Breust -0.5%

4. ST KILDA (+2.1%): Maverick Weller +6.6%, Nick Riewoldt -1.1%

5. NTH MELBOURNE (+2.1%): Jack Ziebell +13.9, Lindsay Thomas -4.1%

6. MELBOURNE (+1.9%): Jack Watts +9.5%, Jesse Hogan -4.7%

7. COLLINGWOOD (+0.9%): Alex Fasolo +22.1%, Jordan De Goey -3.4%

8. WEST COAST (0.3%): Josh Hill +20.3%, Elliott Yeo -17.5%

9. ADELAIDE (0.1%): Taylor Walker +6.2%, Charlie Cameron -14.4%

10. GOLD COAST (-0.5%): Tom Lynch +8.9%, Aaron Hall -13.8%

11. RICHMOND (-1.0%): Sam Lloyd +6.4%, Ty Vickery -2.0%

12. PORT ADELAIDE (-1.1%) Charlie Dixon +7.6%, Robbie Gray-11.1%

13. GEELONG (-1.7%): Steven Motlop +5.8%, Zac Smith -18.3%

14. FREMANTLE (-1.7%): Matt Taberner +15.5%, Chris Mayne -12.2%

15. WESTERN BULLDOGS (-2.2%): Marcus Bontempelli +8.7%, Toby McLean -1.6%

16. CARLTON (-2.4%): Andrejs Everitt +12.7%, Levi Casboult -13.6

17. BRISBANE (-4.9%): Tom Bell +2.8%, Josh Schache -15.8%

18. ESSENDON (-5.7%): Mitch Brown -3.6%, Orazio Fantasia -5.6%
 

Arkangel

All Australian
Jun 8, 2007
655
1,513
Internet City
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Everyone except Carlton, Brisbane and Essendon are better than us.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...g/news-story/1ac2daa5a7b146f78c21d31359f16d9b

STRAIGHT SHOOTERS (Best, Worst)

1. GWS GIANTS (+5%): Steve Johnson +12.5%, Jonathon Patton -11.7%

2. SYDNEY (+3.9%): Lance Franklin +10%, Tom Papley -13.9%

3. HAWTHORN (+3%): Cyril Rioli +21.3%, Luke Breust -0.5%

4. ST KILDA (+2.1%): Maverick Weller +6.6%, Nick Riewoldt -1.1%

5. NTH MELBOURNE (+2.1%): Jack Ziebell +13.9, Lindsay Thomas -4.1%

6. MELBOURNE (+1.9%): Jack Watts +9.5%, Jesse Hogan -4.7%

7. COLLINGWOOD (+0.9%): Alex Fasolo +22.1%, Jordan De Goey -3.4%

8. WEST COAST (0.3%): Josh Hill +20.3%, Elliott Yeo -17.5%

9. ADELAIDE (0.1%): Taylor Walker +6.2%, Charlie Cameron -14.4%

10. GOLD COAST (-0.5%): Tom Lynch +8.9%, Aaron Hall -13.8%

11. RICHMOND (-1.0%): Sam Lloyd +6.4%, Ty Vickery -2.0%

12. PORT ADELAIDE (-1.1%) Charlie Dixon +7.6%, Robbie Gray-11.1%

13. GEELONG (-1.7%): Steven Motlop +5.8%, Zac Smith -18.3%

14. FREMANTLE (-1.7%): Matt Taberner +15.5%, Chris Mayne -12.2%

15. WESTERN BULLDOGS (-2.2%): Marcus Bontempelli +8.7%, Toby McLean -1.6%

16. CARLTON (-2.4%): Andrejs Everitt +12.7%, Levi Casboult -13.6

17. BRISBANE (-4.9%): Tom Bell +2.8%, Josh Schache -15.8%

18. ESSENDON (-5.7%): Mitch Brown -3.6%, Orazio Fantasia -5.6%

What exactly are these numbers? We're not the only team listed there whose "worst" player has better accuracy than the team average. Is it limited to players who have had a certain number of shots on goal?
 
Mar 15, 2012
10,877
25,705
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray, Melbourne City
What exactly are these numbers? We're not the only team listed there whose "worst" player has better accuracy than the team average. Is it limited to players who have had a certain number of shots on goal?
The Hun article is unhelpful in explaining what the numbers actually mean. Unfortunately the Hun staff are a long way behind Champion Data in understanding the details behind the various statistics, even though they have unbelievable access to them compared to the general public.

I believe the numbers in the article are Champion Data kick rating metrics for shots at goal. Kick rating can be considered for lots of different "types" of kicks, CD found nearly 800 types in 2015 (according to the prospectus). 300 of these types were attempted at least 30 times. Factors such as field position and incoming pressure lead to different "types" of kicks being derived.

The easiest kicks are to open teammates. 257 players kicked backwards to an open teammate inside D50 and all of them hit the target. 118 players kicked long from D50 to past halfway whilst under pressure and just 5 of them resulted in a contested mark or better.

Emprical percentages of past kicks are used to develop "expected hit rates" and by comparing this to a given player's actual percentage of a certain type of kick that hit the target, this gives a "kick rating":

Kick rating = hit rate - expected hit rate

Kick rating can be measured for overall kicks, or just set shots at goal, or kicks into F50, etc.

My best guess is that the stats in the recent article are individuals and club averages for kick rating during shots at goal. The prospectus shows that there are however sub-sets for shots at goal, including set shots and general play shots. There may be others, unfortunately the prospectus doesn't comprehensively list the various types of kicks that CD have defined.

Prospectus Fun Facts:
Over the period 2010-2015, Gianciracusa had a +9.0% kick rating for set shots at goal, ranked 4th in the comp.
Our Bob has the best kick rating (+7.7%) for kicking on his opposite (non-preferred) foot, ranked best in the comp.
 

Braybrook Son

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 4, 2016
5,378
5,478
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Sorry to those who like Gia, but he needs to go. Our forward line is a shambles, possibly the worst in the league!
 
Jun 27, 2013
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Sorry to those who like Gia, but he needs to go. Our forward line is a shambles, possibly the worst in the league!
Should've learnt the ropes as a development coach for longer imo

Smithy was around for years before he got the backline job IIRC so at least he had a fair apprenticeship

Seems our coaching department is under-resourced though

2 ex-Cats and 4 ex-Dogs as the main matchday/full-time senior coaches
 

Braybrook Son

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 4, 2016
5,378
5,478
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Should've learnt the ropes as a development coach for longer imo

Smithy was around for years before he got the backline job IIRC so at least he had a fair apprenticeship

Seems our coaching department is under-resourced though

2 ex-Cats and 4 ex-Dogs as the main matchday/full-time senior coaches
Yes I don't like this ex-players club we're forming. Far too many. I believe we have to look for better assistants not just employ your mates!
 

dergert

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 17, 2014
13,792
18,940
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The weekends game was a schamozzle. I'm not sure who should be held accountable. I can't grasp the idea that our senior coaches went into the game believing the opposite of what happened would happen.
 
Mar 15, 2012
10,877
25,705
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray, Melbourne City
The weekends game was a schamozzle. I'm not sure who should be held accountable. I can't grasp the idea that our senior coaches went into the game believing the opposite of what happened would happen.
Bevo mentioned in the post-match presser that "we had a game plan and it didn't involve bombing it on top of blokes' heads".

That at least indicates that there was a midfielder game plan about how they would play, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like we have a plan for how our forwards should position themselves.

We have one of the worst F50 entry conversion rates in the comp, which is an indictment on our forward coach and the game plan that our forwards have been given.
 
Dec 21, 2005
23,638
14,964
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
A forward coach basically ensures that the players are playing the way Bev wants them to. Most people are assuming Gia indicates how he wants them to set up. If people have an issue with the set ups 1 of 3 things is happening...
1. The players don't understand or aren't following the instructions
2. Bev hasn't got a great forward structure
3. Gia isn't passing on Bev's message effectively.
 
We have one of the worst F50 entry conversion rates in the comp, which is an indictment on our forward coach and the game plan that our forwards have been given.
That's not entirely forward-line driven though is it?

We structure up differently to assist the midfield, which is currently operating as one of the best in the competition. One of our high forwards plays as a virtual midfielder so we are effectively robbing the forward-line to boost the midfield, a more important part of the ground.

I can see a vague method to the madness but I'm not sure it works without a long get-out option constantly available, an option we did not have on the weekend any time Redpath was required to cover in the ruck.
I think the idea is sound, but the MC haven't selected the right people to carry it out. Webb was left on Rance as a deep forward far too often and with respect to Webb he's a kid playing his second game of the year on the best KPD in the competition.
 
Dec 21, 2005
23,638
14,964
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If Gia isn't responsible for our F50 conversion rate and he is only a mouthpiece for Bevo's overall plans, then his role is redundant. Bevo just needs a loud speaker, if that is the case. And a better game plan inside F50.
Not so, Bev is the overseer of the whole thing. Gia focuses all his attention on the forwards and then relays to Bev. He also chats to the players relaying Bev's message.

A forward coach or back coach or midfield coach is like this at every club. They implement the coaches game plan, not their own.
 
Mar 15, 2012
10,877
25,705
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray, Melbourne City
That's not entirely forward-line driven though is it?
No, if we get a stoppage inside F50 then obviously midfielders will also be involved in the outcome. But I would expect that the majority of F50 entries are converted to a score by a forward-line player, although I don't know where such a stat might be found.

Not so, Bev is the overseer of the whole thing. Gia focuses all his attention on the forwards and then relays to Bev. He also chats to the players relaying Bev's message.

A forward coach or back coach or midfield coach is like this at every club. They implement the coaches game plan, not their own.
As I said, if this is what we are doing, then Gia's role is redundant. We should get someone who can bring their own ideas to the table, because we clearly need a better game plan inside our F50.
 
Dec 21, 2005
23,638
14,964
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
No, if we get a stoppage inside F50 then obviously midfielders will also be involved in the outcome. But I would expect that the majority of F50 entries are converted to a score by a forward-line player, although I don't know where such a stat might be found.

As I said, if this is what we are doing, then Gia's role is redundant. We should get someone who can bring their own ideas to the table, because we clearly need a better game plan inside our F50.

He would need to bring his own ideas, and being as astute as he is, I'm sure he does. Regardless though, Bev has the final say. You still need someone in the role, it doesn't become redundant. Especially on game day.
 

Braybrook Son

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 4, 2016
5,378
5,478
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I don't know how many times we had the ball on the wing on Sat night, three on three in the forward 50, but no one presented. They just stood still. Surely this comes down to the forward coaching?
 
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