List Mgmt. Our lack of Depth -worrying!

[Rough_Edges]

i did an excercise in the Recap thread today on who didn’t play for us today;

Players who didn’t play today;

Freeman - unlikely unfortunately

Hunter Clark - you’d think he’ll be good

Armitage - hope I’m wrong but think game gone past him. Games to fast?

Billy Longer - Below average ruckman with poor around the ground work. Doesn’t read the play. Poor mark.

Hugh Goddard - probably gets a game if Carlisle or Brown gets injured but the fact he hasn’t been able to dislodge Brown concerns me for his future. Injury prone.

Logan Austin - didn’t mind him at port but he’s certainly nothing more than a back up plan

Koby Stevens - he’s a decent ordinary player. Can seem to have very big games when we are winning but is similar to a lot of players we have.

Josh Battle - looks a good kid. Still might be a while off but from what I’ve seen he could make it.

Josh Bruce - Think he was dropped this week if not for injury. How disappointing has he been since he kicked over 50 I his first year here. Not sure if it’s a confidence thing but he’s lost his marking ability and for mine has been getting worse each year. Ideally he wouldn’t be in our best 22 imo.

Jimmy Webster - one of our more important players imo. can create with his kicking and takes risks.

Ed Phillips - Pick 56 last year. Hard to know really but at 56 it’s prob unlikely.

Daniel McKenzie - What a disappointment. Pick 22 in the 2014 draft and I remember how excited we all were. Has only managed 22 games and has not been good in many.

Bailey Rice - no good. struggles in vfl tbh

Nathan Wright - for the love of me I can’t work out this bloke is still on our list let a line getting the odd game. Drafted in the early 20s in 2012 and played 30 games.

Oscar Clavino - haven’t seen him play but everyone tells me he is a good kick so we can only hope.

Darren Minchington - he’s OK. Prefer him to Lonie for sure. Struggles to play 2 good AFL games in a row.

Man Weller - had that one ok season but has completely fallen off a cliff.

Ben Patton - another defender kind of baffles me.


Of course i forgot Membery who is our best forward



Fk me the cupboard is looking bare :/

That was not a fun experience


I feel like this is a massive ******* issue for us. We’ve been really quite lucky with injuries over the past few years but if it got bad, god - we don’t exactly have an embarrassment of riches to chose from.

 

[Rough_Edges]

and just as a follow up post...

a major concern is we may want to make changes to our team but due to the distinguished lack of talent coming from underneath, it does make it tough u unfortunately.

 

[Munga]

Before this season, I actually thought this is the best list depth we've ever had! They aren't being developed properly.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Before this season, I actually thought this is the best list depth we've ever had! They aren't being developed properly.

Who do you think hasn’t been developed properly and how have you come to that conclusion ?

 

[Sab22]

Paton, Langlands, Rice, Clav, Battle, Philips, Clark, Freeman.
I really want these guys to find some sort of form and find their way into the team.

Paton, Langlands, Philips offer serious pace and skills, which we lack in the middle.
Rice, Clav both very good kicks, Rice is a good overhead mark and Clav resembles Lever a lot.
Clark, Freeman high draft picks, both are very special players. Freeman just needs some luck, Clark just really needs some game time.
Battle, i really rate this guy. He reminds me a lot of Roo specially the ability to have such high endurance for a tall bloke. If he can seriously lift his form, push for a selection. He really could be our very own Lynch (crows).

Rice > Geary
Paton/Philips > Newnes
Clav > Gilbert
Battle > Bruce/Hickey
Clark > Lonie

 

[Rough_Edges]

Ok good so at least people can see the pessimistic outlook from me and the optimistic outlook from you!

But Im sorry Bailey Rice is very ordinary and if he starts playing regular footy for us we’re iN even more strife

 

[JG22]

Didn't think it was too bad but when we brought back Wright last week it was clear there wasn't a lot

 

[sonnywalters]

Who do you think hasn’t been developed properly and how have you come to that conclusion ?

Body shapes of Brandon White and Paddy are big red flags for me. Been at the club 4 and 3 years respectively. Full time athletes. Both look like suburban players.

I dont think most of our players are AFL fit or strong.

Also dont think there is enough basic skill focus. Our kicking under pressure is horrific compared to most other clubs.

 

[Sab22]

Body shapes of Brandon White and Paddy are big red flags for me. Been at the club 4 and 3 years respectively. Full time athletes. Both look like suburban players.

I dont think most of our players are AFL fit or strong.

Also dont think there is enough basic skill focus. Our kicking under pressure is horrific compared to most other clubs.

I reckon preseason pics were photoshopped

 

[gringo2011]

Before this season, I actually thought this is the best list depth we've ever had! They aren't being developed properly.

Who is high level that is not developing though. Gresh looks alike his second year blues came a year late, Billings is still racking up numbers but is flaky in front of goal and a bit soft, Acres has improved very slowly to a point he's showing his worth, White looked okay today etc.

I would say of our high picks most that were good have been pretty well developed. Some players aren't Joel Selwood no matter what you do to them. Marshall who is a rookie has developed okay too so perhaps it's just we selected badly and the development was hindered by a lack of older bodies around them which makes it slower?

I think we were all drunk on hope instead of reality. They might still be great players, they just aren't yet.

 

[Rough_Edges]

I think we assumed we had good depth because we have a very even team.

This made doing best 22s difficult but the drop off after around 28 is quite amazing.


Only players AFL lvl who didn’t play today imo;

Hunter Clark (we hope, didn’t look quite ready)
Armitage (maybe) - slow inside mid, poor kick
Longer - below average ruck
Stevens - decent foot soilder
Battle (we hope, not ready) - who knows. We’re hoping
Bruce - below average kpf
Webster - great player
Membery - our best tallish forward (slight indictment)
Minchington (just) - >>>>> Lonie, wright

Obviously hope Clav comes on I know you guys like him.

Fk me that’s Grim

 

[borderbarry]

You have omitted our two Irish boys, one of whom, Joyce, was best afield in Sandy's win today and could get a game next week if Robbo doesnt come up.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Oh yep I did too. Slip of the mind.

 

[Coconut_twirl]

I disagree on Webster being a great player, as he turns over the footy far too often. You can't do that in defence .

 

[Rough_Edges]

At least Webster turns it over by taking aggressive creative kicks through the middle.

So often over the past few weeks we’ve been getting bogged dow mn and just continually going long up the line, making it very hard for us to score.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Before this season, I actually thought this is the best list depth we've ever had! They aren't being developed properly.

Posted this late last year after I kept hearing the same thing over and over.

Current team after a 5 year rebuild (minimum 10 games)

Geary – Brown – Webster
Savage – Carlisle – Robbo
Newnes – Ross – Sincs
Gresh – Paddy – Billings
Weller – Bruce - Membrey
Hickey – Steven – Dunstan
Steele – Acres – Armo - Gilbo

When it comes to depth:

Players with AFL experience (over 5 AFL games prior to this year):
Longer, Austin, Stevens, Goddard, Lonie, Wright, McKenzie, Minchi (seriously that was the depth we knew anything about).

Complete unknowns (under 5 games prior to this year):
Romo, Long, Clarke, Coff, Battle, White, Phillips, Rice, Freeman, Clav, Joyce, Connellan, Paton, Langlands (Pierce)


Just for a reality check, compare this to our 04 team after a 5 year rebuild. Both in terms of a team and known depth.

S.Fisher - M.Hudghton - S.Baker
A.Jones – M.Maguire - B.Voss
H.Black – L.Ball – N.Dal Santo
X.Clarke – N.Riewoldt - B.Goddard
S.Milne – F.Gherig - A.Hamill
J.Koschitzke - L.Hayes – R.Harvey
A.Thompson – S.Powell – J.Blake - T. Swartze

Players not getting a game with AFL experience
J. Peckett, L.Montagna, B.Guerra, L.Penny, J.Gram, T.Knobel, L.Fisher, R.Clarke, B.Moyle, M. Ferguson

Outside of Steven, Billings and maybe Snake, do any of our current players crack 04?

Yes a modern day rebuild is harder, but we are the length of Flemington Straight behind our last young team that contended.

Find 7 AFL quality from the complete unknown pile (seriously who can tell anything from under 5 games), two from the next draft (including 1 top 5 pick) and one quality trade / F/A (pretty please Sloane) and maybe we begin to match up. But that involves some really really massive ifs over the next 12 months.

I believe this is the year we genuinely needed to have to prevent us rebuilding to the middle

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Luke Penny was a gun and would walk straight into that team in 2004. Unfortunately injuries cut his career short.

Do you notice with the 2004 team they're done great recruits from other clubs? For example, black, gtrain, hammil, gram. Saints need to throw the cheque book.

 

[Rough_Edges]

2011 draft -

25 - Seb
35 - Markworth
37 - Newnes
42 - Webster
60 - Lever
68 - Maister
76 - Blake

Rookie

12 - Dunnell
30 - Shenton
48 - Staley
65 - Minchington

Amazing draft really.

2012 draft

24 - Wright
25 - White
40 - Murdoch
43 - Saunders
75 - Pierce
90 - Dunnell

Makes me feel sick whenever I think of this. Dat Spencer White hype.

2013 draft

3 - Billings
18 - Dunstan
19 - Acres
83 - Curren

Rookie

2 - Templeton
20 - Weller
36 - Holmes

Obviously bonts going 4 hurts a bit but I think we are all happy with Billings. I think we nailed m
/Acres however Matt Crouch and Zach Merret May have something today about 18 pick.

2014 draft

1 - McCartin
21 - Hugh Goddard
22 - Daniel McKenzie
41 - Jack Lonie

Rookie

1 - Sinclair
19 - Ahmed Saad
37 - Brenton Payne
54 - Adam Schneider

Probably a bit harsh to call Goddard and Dmac busts but I can’t imagine them be becoming good afl players tbh.

Sinclair in the rookie draft the jackpot.

2015 draft

18 - Gresham
40 - Brandon White
49 - Bailey Rice

All three remain on list. Bailey Rice id assume for not longer after pick 40 tho so not a bust. Gresham a steal.

2016 draft;

25 Ben Long
39 Josh Battle
56 Edward Phillips


Rookie;

10 Rowan Marshall


Bold = still on list
Italics underline = bust (only pick 40 or lower)

Total confirmed busts; 6 = 16
Total Rookie draft steaks; 4
Total draftees still on list; 21/37

Wonder if this explains the lack of depth and how it would compare to other teams.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Luke Penny was a gun and would walk straight into that team in 2004. Unfortunately injuries cut his career short.

Do you notice with the 2004 team they're done great recruits from other clubs? For example, black, gtrain, hammil, gram. Saints need to throw the cheque book.

Agree on Penny. Was a damn shame about his knee. If you make that change Sam Fisher probably comes out. Now that is depth.

You are right about the checkbook too. Sure we had Harvs who was a legend, and sure we had some emerging leaders fast-tracked by Thomas (in Roo, Ball and Lenny). But our onfield leader was bought and paid for with a top 4 draft pick and bags full of cash (Hamill).

Seriously back the dumptruck up and get Sloane!

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

2011 draft -

25 - Seb
35 - Markworth
37 - Newnes
42 - Webster
60 - Lever
68 - Maister
76 - Blake

Rookie

12 - Dunnell
30 - Shenton
48 - Staley
65 - Minchington

Amazing draft really.

2012 draft

24 - Wright
25 - White
40 - Murdoch
43 - Saunders
75 - Pierce
90 - Dunnell

Makes me feel sick whenever I think of this. Dat Spencer White hype.

2013 draft

3 - Billings
18 - Dunstan
19 - Acres
83 - Curren

Rookie

2 - Templeton
20 - Weller
36 - Holmes

Obviously bonts going 4 hurts a bit but I think we are all happy with Billings. I think we nailed m
/Acres however Matt Crouch and Zach Merret May have something today about 18 pick.

2014 draft

1 - McCartin
21 - Hugh Goddard
22 - Daniel McKenzie
41 - Jack Lonie

Rookie

1 - Sinclair
19 - Ahmed Saad
37 - Brenton Payne
54 - Adam Schneider

Probably a bit harsh to call Goddard and Dmac busts but I can’t imagine them be becoming good afl players tbh.

Sinclair in the rookie draft the jackpot.

2015 draft

18 - Gresham
40 - Brandon White
49 - Bailey Rice

All three remain on list. Bailey Rice id assume for not longer after pick 40 tho so not a bust. Gresham a steal.

2016 draft;

25 Ben Long
39 Josh Battle
56 Edward Phillips


Rookie;

10 Rowan Marshall


Bold = still on list
Italics underline = bust (only pick 40 or lower)

Total confirmed busts; 6 = 16
Total Rookie draft steaks; 4
Total draftees still on list; 21/37

Wonder if this explains the lack of depth and how it would compare to other teams.

Total main draft busts inside 20; 0/5
Total main draft finds outside 40; 1/12

We haven't fluffed our lines completely on the big calls, but we haven't hit gold in the rough either. Little bit there between 20 and 40 but not much.

Par

 

[Rough_Edges]

Forgot about pick 12 for Tom Lee and pick 13 for Hickey.

Ouch

 

[Verdun66]

Forgot about pick 12 for Tom Lee and pick 13 for Hickey.

Ouch

Forget the exact details, but they were compromised drafts around that time. And we traded 12 and 13 for those players and other draft picks. They weren’t really just 12 and 13. If you look at that draft now it wasn’t that terrific. Many players already delisted. Kristian Jaksch went 12 and Jesse Lonergsn 13. Jesse Hogan and Jack Martin were taken in the mini draft.

We have been over this ground a few times.

 

[bird_man]

Who do you think hasn’t been developed properly and how have you come to that conclusion ?

Go through the list one by one and you’ll soon notice that most have not improved in the last 12 to 24 months.

 

[Mowman]

At least Webster turns it over by taking aggressive creative kicks through the middle.

So often over the past few weeks we’ve been getting bogged dow mn and just continually going long up the line, making it very hard for us to score.

Webster turns it over because he is shocking decision maker

 

[Saint Watto]

Fk me the cupboard is looking bare :/

That was not a fun experience

A great post there Rough_edges...........very very sobering.

You point out what I have been suspecting since the start of last season.......back then everyone was very confident we had a lot of good depth.....and on the surface,that certainly appeared to be the case.

Approaching mid last season when our form slid badly,it appeared that our depth wasn't as good as all had thought.

Pre season this year.........again most thought our depth was better than last year but with my looking over the list again I wasn't that sure......and BANG ....here we are.

Your right Rough_edges...it's a MASSIVE issue right now for us.....I naturally don't know how long it may take to turn it all around.

I have always said that I couldn't fault our drafting up till now.........and on the main believe we're done ok since the 2013 draft.

We never knew of course that our whole draft of 2014 would not be giving us basically any return 3 years later.....that really has hurt us.

With our trades.....you would question a few of them and I certainly think the spot light will shine on our recruiting dept.........along with a few other depts..