List Mgmt. Our List 2014 - Trade, De-list and Draft - (keep it all in here)

[HARKER]

Firstly, this is not a player bashing thread but one set-up for a progressive discussion into what we may do at seasons end in preparation for 2014.
We may well say that it's too early for such discussions but that certainly wouldn't be the case behind closed doors at the CFC. Anyway.

We know that some players will be de-listed, some players may be looked to be traded and some may even ask to be traded out for more opportunity.

It's also probable that we'll be setting out to acquire players.
Last year showed us to have our hands tied for several reasons when it came to trades, but at this stage we're looking a lot freer, should we wish to engage.
The big ticket items would be terrific, but which other positions need to be nailed down and who may we be putting onto our radar?

Below is a current listing of players that may discussed when de-listing/trading comes up:

Retirement:
Scotland: Will he run through another year?

Delist Possibilities:

NOW GONE:
Collins: If no opportunity presents through the seniors this year, it's hard seeing him remain on the list.
Joseph: Arguable that he may not have remained on the list should have he not been contracted for this year. MM is giving him chances so he must take every opportunity.
Davies: Very much the same as Joseph. Are we going to offer him a fresh contract after 4 years on the list?
O'Keeffe: This one hurts because after a terrific pre-season and a possible start for round 1, he injured his foot and after getting back into the training regime had to go back for further surgery.
Dale: On the rookie list for two years now and as Cachia, needs to do plenty in a short period of time. Something about him though tells me he'll remain.
Mitchell: Advice is that he was given only a one year contract last year. Would now be in the firing line.
McCarthy: No guarantee that he'll remain on the list next year. Should be safe but you never know.

Duigan: Just hard to see us giving him a contract with McInnes and Bootsma preferred. Seems we have enough backs being developed, to warrant keeping him on.
Buckley: Probably not fair to put him here but if form didn't show up, I doubt his name alone would have kept him from being discussed as an out.

Trade:
Warnock/Hampson: Who knows? Whatever opinion one may have today may well change tomorrow.
Lucas: Was discussed last year as a possible trade bait, but he seems to be enjoying his football a lot more this year. He is out of contract though.
White: A terrific pre-season alone may not be enough. Very much liked around the club but that alone doesn't warrant a spot on the list. Has little time to do a lot.
Ellard: Contract is up at the end of the year and he will be discussed but I can't see him being let go. Seems Mick is a fan and will give him every chance.
Laidler: I know, but we can't avoid talking about it.

Safe since original OP:
Cachia: Fair to say that most rookies have a lot to prove in a short period of time although Cachia has started his year very well. (Will be retained as rookie)
Rowe: Has been granted a one year contract and is now with us for next year.
Watson: Unlikely but some clubs will be asking. Given overs we may have reason to be interested. (Signed for two years. Not going anywhere)
Curnow: Can't be kept on the rookie list any longer but will we offer up a senior spot? Probably, but you never know. (Much too valuable now. will be retained)

Free Agent/Trade interest:

Thomas: Mark Allen from SEN 27/4: No secret that Malthouse and Daisy would like to re-connect.

Watts: No surprise if he does want to leave Melbourne and again the Malthouse connection may serve us well should we feel a need for him. (Signed on with Melbourne)
Adams: Seems possible he'll make the move back home and we'd certainly be interested in a tough quality mid.
Delaney: Of the Luke variety. Would make for a good back-up back-man allowing Henderson to confidently go forward.
Staker: Discussions with The CFC. We could be quite interested.
Docherty: Leaving Brisbane and wanting to come home. Advice is that we're interested.
J. White: May be getting sounded out by us.
Didak: Apparently been seen touring the club. What exactly does that mean?

 

[Stamos]

We may well say that it's too early for such discussions but that certainly wouldn't be the case behind closed doors at the CFC. Anyway.

This time last year Brock had a line through his name. I can't see much point prior to about half way through the season.

I doubt there's been much discussion behind closed doors in relation to whom they may want to cut, they simply wouldn't know. Although I'm sure possible tagets are mentioned.

 

[HARKER]

This time last year Brock had a line through his name. I can't see much point prior to about half way through the season.

I doubt there's been much discussion behind closed doors in relation to whom they may want to cut, they simply wouldn't know. Although I'm sure possible tagets are mentioned.

I don't know Stamos.

I think McKay would already be juggling the numbers and keeping his nose close to the ground as to what may be happening around the other clubs.
The process is an on-going one and I'm sure McKay doesn't want to be in the same position he inherited with his hands largely tied.

It may well change through the course of the year but I don't see it much different to playing DT or SC, in that you're continually working all permutations for the best possible result.

 

[Stamos]

Davies and AJ are getting a gig at the moment, so now is there chance (except for poor Davies doing his hammy).

O'Keefe and Collins would at least have to have a pencil line through their names.

Club will want to keep Lucas, and you wouldn't think he'd walk. Who know whether Scotty goes on or not?

So much can change so quickly, a guy gets a chance due to injury or Mick wanting to test him out, plays well, keeps his spot, 4 weeks later he's cemented in the 22 (McInnes for example).

Although McKay would certainly be across the contracts, a lot of it changes completely come trade period. I don't see how we can be making judgements 3 weeks in when we have been close, but lost 3 games that we should have won.

 

[Sin City]

Hard to tell so early out.

Over pre-season I would've said Davies will be the first to go but the coach seems to be a fan and he was alright last week. If he can get a consistent run he may impress enough to stay.

The rookie list will get a clean out. Strong chance O'Keeffe and Collins will go, Bell may be upgraded if he does well otherwise will get another year but what happens with Curnow? I'm a huge fan but he can't stay on the rookie list any longer so if he can't get a game this year he may be in trouble. Hope not.

White will get opportunities but if he can't cement a spot I doubt he'll be there next year with McInnes and Bootsma coming on.

Scotland looks to be moving ok again, might retire but could go on. We'll see how his body holds up over the year. Waite may get sick of being injured all the time but I reckon he'll see his contract out.

Ellard and Joseph may struggle to get a regular game this year, handy depth though.

Not keen on trading a ruck, they're always injured so we need three on the list as long as they're happy to be here.

 

[All Australian]

I believe a part of Bell re-signing last year, was on the condition that he must be upgraded in 2014. Watson is the bloke I find interesting.

 

[Big Sim]

Also got to think who on that list may be of interest to other clubs. I don't mean as trade bait, but to be poached as seems the norm these days.

Ellard would be one I'd say, White may be another. Lucas definitely.

I reckon Curnow would get a gig somewhere too.

I reckon Collins is only still on the list because he was contracted. Papers already stamped.

 

[Go_Blues!]

Also got to think who on that list may be of interest to other clubs. I don't mean as trade bait, but to be poached as seems the norm these days.

Ellard would be one I'd say, White may be another. Lucas definitely.

I reckon Curnow would get a gig somewhere too.

I reckon Collins is only still on the list because he was contracted. Papers already stamped.

Really? I thought Collins was delisted and then picked back up as a rookie?

 

[Big Sim]

Really? I thought Collins was delisted and then picked back up as a rookie?

Correct. But if he had been let go and his contract paid out and that spot on the rookie list taken by a new player, that new player would have to be paid as well. With our cap so tight I imagine they wanted to save the money.

But I am just speculating like everyone else on this board.

 

[zeeCFC]

Warnock (trade), Davies, Joseph and the three KPPs from the draft 3 years ago will want to all show form.

 

[BM123]

What will be looking for if we trade Warnock though ?

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Out:

Marcus Davies (delist)
Aaron Joseph (delist)
Luke Mitchell (delist)
Patrick McCarthy (delist)
Heath Scotland (retire)

In:

Lance Franklin (free agent)
Thomas Boyd (draft)
James Aish (draft)
Dominic Sheed (draft)


B: Laidler, Jamison, Walker
HB: Aish, Henderson, McInnes
C: Simpson, Gibbs, Yarran
HF: Garlett, Franklin, Armfield
F: Betts, Boyd, Hampson
Foll: Kreuzer, Judd, Murphy

I/C: Carrazzo, McLean, Robinson
Sub: Sheed

 

[zeeCFC]

Out:

Marcus Davies (delist)
Aaron Joseph (delist)
Luke Mitchell (delist)
Patrick McCarthy

In:

Lance Franklin (free agent)
Thomas Boyd (draft)
James Aish (draft)
Dominic Sheed (draft)

I'd be extremely disappointed

 

[zeeCFC]

Out:

Marcus Davies (delist)
Aaron Joseph (delist)
Luke Mitchell (delist)
Patrick McCarthy

In:

Lance Franklin (free agent)
Thomas Boyd (draft)
James Aish (draft)
Dominic Sheed (draft)

this would go some way to easing the pain though...

 

[HARKER]

If we are to put our hat into the ring for Franklin and we'd be crazy if we didn't have a look at it, then we know we'd need to bring out the wide broom.

Malthouse will have patience this year but I doubt he'll just want to see what happens if some of the KPP don't step up this year.

If we aren't getting very good results from Rowe, Casboult, Mitchell, McCarthy and Watson, then we may just be forced to go out and shop for either a KPF or KPD

Franklin aside, who else is out there that may just make a difference?

 

[BM123]

I'd giggle like a school girl if we managed to get Franklin.

 

[smashbox gill]

What will be looking for if we trade Warnock though ?

Between 15-25 i would say. Closer to around 20. Hopefully one of the GWS youngsters is homesick and we can do a swap

 

[I bleed Blue]

I'd giggle like a school girl if we managed to get Franklin.

If we got Franklin I would fap until my arm fell off!

 

[HARKER]

I'd giggle like a school girl if we managed to get Franklin.

Long shot as was Cloke but we got pretty close in the end.

The thing is that in order to put oneself in a position to compete for such a player, there must be a plan in place.
We couldn't just offer the money whilst contracting everyone and anyone this early in the year.

I don't know how it all works but if I was McKay I'd be putting myself in a position where you don't wish to lose your essentials but be flexible enough to take advantage of any favourable situations that present or that you care to manufacture.
When did Richmond start talking to some of the players they targeted picking up last year? I'd bet it wasn't in September or October.

The work starts now.

 

[BM123]

Long shot as was Cloke but we got pretty close in the end.

The thing is that in order to put oneself in a position to compete for such a player, there must be a plan in place.
We couldn't just offer the money whilst contracting everyone and anyone this early in the year.

I don't know how it all works but if I was McKay I'd be putting myself in a position where you don't wish to lose your essentials but be flexible enough to take advantage of any favourable situations that present or that you care to manufacture.
When did Richmond start talking to some of the players they targeted picking up last year? I'd bet it wasn't in September or October.

The work starts now.

I'd imagine many of players might have to accept cuts if we wanted like Judd with his new contract at the end of the year.

 

[HARKER]

I'd imagine many of players might have to accept cuts if we wanted like Judd with his new contract at the end of the year.

I'd imagine that we couldn't fit Judd and Franklin into the same side.

Personal opinion only: I feel that if Franklin was possible, Judd would be practical enough to come forward and say, "Get him guys, you need him. I'll back away"

 

[BM123]

I'd imagine that we couldn't fit Judd and Franklin into the same side.

Personal opinion only: I feel that if Franklin was possible, Judd would be practical enough to come forward and say, "Get him guys, you need him. I'll back away"

I would think it be more practical to take the payout and still play instead of leaving for no money. if we lose Judd we would have no one to fill his shoes unfortunately which brings our midfield down to 2nd tier.

 

[Stamos]

I'd imagine that we couldn't fit Judd and Franklin into the same side.

Personal opinion only: I feel that if Franklin was possible, Judd would be practical enough to come forward and say, "Get him guys, you need him. I'll back away"

I'd suggest that as long as he wants to keep playing (which he definitely does for next year at least), Judd would be prepared to take a largely reduced salary if it meant we got Buddy.

He has already said that he only wants a 1 year deal and will only be signing 1 year deals from now on.

 

[T2B_]

Great as Franklin is as an overall player and a true freak, I don't know that he would solve any of our KPF issues. He's more like a very very tall and strong crumber than a traditional key forward and isn't the greatest overhead, though obviously because of his speed can get on the end of a decent lead too. Would demand plenty of opposition attention though.

 

[Jeremias]

This question was asked during the off-season and it does generate some great discussion. Whilst it is just too early for me to mark anyone down as a definite delisting come the end of the year, no doubt some players are in the gun and need a strong season to retain their place on the list.

I posted quite a lengthy response in a thread late last year so in response to this thread, I'll reference that post and include any additional comments after each paragraph.

All players on the rookie list have a one year contract (besides Bell who we know will be elevated at the end of the season) so are naturally up against it and really have to fight for a place at the club in 2014 be it on the rookie list or senior list. Collins, Cachia, Dale, Curnow and O'Keeffe are all in the gun and there are certainly no guarantees for any of them going forward. Really it is impossible to say what will happen to them. Some may be rewarded for their hard work by gaining permanent elevation to the senior list, some may be kept as a second or third year rookie and of course some will be shown the door. That's just the nature of the rookie list and it will certainly be interesting to see how it plays out as the season progresses.

This is still the case to this point in time. Bell is guaranteed elevation. Curnow is now in his third season on the rookie list and as such, needs to be either elevated or moved on at the end of the year. At this stage I would suggest he will be rewarded with elevation to the senior list.

Unfortunately ROK has once again broken down with injury and I think that may be the end for him. Clearly has talent but it seems his body won't allow him to display it for any period of time. A shame but won't be the first to have a potential career ruined by injury, and most certainly won't be the last.

At this point in time I can't see Collins remaining at the club in 2014 but I can't put a line through him just yet. Cachia and Dale can spend more time on the rookie list (2 years and 1 year respectively) should we decide to go down that path. At this stage I'm tipping both to be around the club in 2014, in some capacity.

The senior listed players who I believe are up against it to retain their place on the senior list in 2014 are as follows:

1) Sam Rowe - Sam would likely have been handed a 2 year contract upon being drafted so this is a contract year for him. Of course last year was a complete write-off for him due to circumstances we are all familiar with and it is a credit to him that he's fought through all that and still wants to give the AFL caper a red hot crack. I have little doubt that he will debut at some stage throughout 2013 - and what a wonderful story that will be when it does happen - but I do worry about his longevity at AFL level. I had these concerns when we initially drafted him and they remain prevalent. No doubt Sam faces a big year and my guess is that he won't be around in 2014 but it won't be through a lack of effort that he may fall short because we know that he will give it his absolute all.

Only 3 rounds into the season and it looks like I may get this one wrong. To his credit Sam has already worked his way into the senior side and performed quite admirably. Plenty of water to go under the bridge of course, but he's showing he can contribute at AFL level and at this stage I expect him to earn another contract.

2) Marcus Davies - A new coach coming on board effectively wipes the slate clean and most players start from scratch, however I feel that Davies would probably be first in line at this stage to lose his place on the senior list at the end of 2013. Marcus has a fair bit going for him and he does have certain tools that are highly advantageous in an AFL environment and which do make me feel that there's something there to work with. He's an awkward height - not quite tall enough to play as a key defender but not small enough to play on smaller forwards - but he's built like a brick outhouse and he's not afraid to use that to his advantage. Very aggressive footballer who has shown that he will run through an opponent to get the ball which is a huge plus particularly as a younger player. Carlton currently has very few 'enforcers' in the squad which is a weakness of the side but Marcus is one who could be classified as such because he's willing to throw his weight around and who has a bit of mongrel in him. Unfortunately whilst all those are real positives there are just as many if not more negatives to Marcus' game and that's what really holds him back. His disposal is very ordinary and his decision making is not much better, and that doesn't make an attractive package for an AFL footballer looking to break through. However a new coach gives him a fresh start and if he applies himself throughout the preseason and over the course of the year there may be something that Mick sees in him and his game which may save him, because as I said there are some real positives to Marcus. All things considered he faces a huge year and a real uphill battle to retain his spot on the list for 2014 and one which I think will ultimately be too steep for him to successfully climb in the next 10 or so months.

Marcus still faces an uphill battle to retain his spot on the list for 2014, but he has already started the climb. Has played 2 senior games already and, despite his status as whipping boy, performed to a reasonable standard. Unfortunately Marcus injured his hamstring last weekend so has another obstacle to overcome. Currently it would be very fair to say that Marcus finds himself balancing precariously on the edge and needs to fight to get back to fitness and to put his name up for senior selection once again. If he can do that there will no doubt be a level of resistance to let him go but if he can't do that then I suspect he will be out the door.

3) Simon White - White finds himself on this list largely because he's been hindered by injuries in each of his seasons at Carlton and there's probably only so long a club is willing to wait until they cut their losses and sever ties with the player. At full fitness I feel that Simon is actually quite a decent footballer and in truth probably wouldn't be on this list had he be able to stay injury free and show what he is capable of on a consistent basis. At his best and at full fitness I think White has both the physique and the athletic ability to be able to contribute all over the ground - back, forward and even through the midfield. That versatility holds him in great stead heading forward into this season as versatility is a trait which I have no doubt is increasing in importance at AFL level. Whilst we have not seen him in the midfield at AFL level, Simon has been noted for his running ability so hopefully we get to see that at some stage in 2013. To this point most of White's senior appearances have come on the back of injuries to our taller defenders and therefore have been in a position where he has had to punch above his weight as a key defender, and whilst he's a real trier and will give it everything he's got, he's probably not suited to that role. At this point in time I think we may have erred in getting rid of Thornton and would have liked to keep him as insurance for at least one more season but if White stands up I think Thornton's departure will hardly be noticed as I think White is the better swing-man but that remains to be seen. Whilst it is only very early in the preseason it is pleasing that White has already been noted as being really impressive on the track. Hopefully that continues for the remainder of the preseason and he's able to stay injury free throughout the year as if he does I am confident that he'll be around beyond next season. However as I said earlier if he is struck down once again I think he'll be cut and just another case of a player who didn't quite make it largely because injuries held him back.

Solid form throughout the preseason is not enough to save anyone from the chop at the end of the year. If Simon fails to force his way into the senior side and feature throughout the year then he too will be looking for another home. Hasn't played senior football thus far this season but is on the cusp and may well be included as soon as this week. I think we'll keep Simon for another year at least but if he can't have an impact at senior level then he no doubt will be in some danger. Of course, as noted above, if he is to suffer another serious injury then that too may be enough to stamp his papers.

4) Aaron Joseph - AJ has reinvented himself as a small defender over the past few seasons and I think he probably needs to reinvent himself once again if he's to retain his spot on the list beyond 2013. What has become apparent is that AJ just isn't an AFL quality small defender and heading forward I don't think we can afford to continue to play him in that position. His effort and intensity can't really be questioned because it's clear he busts a gut but as a defender he's just not up to it. Disposal is average and I don't think he's a smart footballer at all and as such he continues to give away free kicks in damaging positions which really hurts the side particularly when it happens over and over again. As an example it's cringeworthy to see him slide on the ball in the defensive 50 only to be tackled and pinged for holding the ball. Happening once is a mistake but it has happened on numerous occasions which indicates to me he panics in defensive areas. In terms of where he goes from here I just don't know. Perhaps needs to try and make it as a midfielder but I just don't see him as a productive and effective midfielder at AFL level so I think he'll spend the majority of the season at VFL level. I do think he'll be seen at senior level but not much as he'll be passed by a fair few players on the list and probably won't be around in 2013. I think there's probably just too much going against him at the moment to be kept around unless he can really apply himself and show something as an attacking midfielder.

Like Davies, AJ is one who has clearly impressed the coaching staff and has featured in two senior games thus far this season. This indicates to me that Mick sees him as a player who he can use at senior level. We know he's not the best player running around but to his credit he works hard and has not been as poor as some seem to suggest. Interestingly it looks like AJ's role has not changed as dramatically as I suggested it may need to, but he doesn't seem to be playing as deep down back as he has in previous seasons. No doubt AJ is still in a tough position but I'm starting to change my thoughts on him - I'm now leaning to him retaining his spot on the senior list in 2014 but the season is young and things can turn around fairly quickly.

5) David Ellard - I really like Davey and I feel that had he been at another club there's every chance he'd not only have seen significantly more senior action but perhaps even established himself as a permanent fixture in an AFL midfield. Ellard has no real stand-out qualities apart from probably his work-rate which really has to be admired. Just does not give up and like elite midfielders just wills himself from contest to contest. He's certainly no star but I do think he's very much a useful footballer and a highly productive one, but perhaps he's just that one or two tricks off becoming a real success at AFL level. After a few years of waiting around he had a really good 2011 and it looked as though he may have established himself in the senior side but 2012 told a different story and he was nothing more than a bit-part depth player. Still managed to have an impact in several games but just didn't reach the levels he set for himself a year prior and fell further behind in the pecking order as the year progressed and others got their chance. I think Mick will really take to his work-rate and willingness to push himself to contests but in terms of his prospects of breaking back into the senior side, I just can't see it happening. I think we've certainly got a number of worse players on the list but I think Malthouse will be keen to clear the list out after one year and any depth player who isn't a kid is well and truly up against it - and Ellard fits into that category. He'll see senior game time in 2013 but I think he'll struggle to find a way back into the senior side as a permanent fixture and I'm leaning towards this being his final year at Carlton which is a real shame and I wouldn't object to him being kept around because at the very least he lifts the bar in terms of the effort required at training and to make the senior side on a weekly basis which can only be a good thing. Has probably missed the boat in terms of being traded to another side and would now have virtually no value so if he's to find another home he probably still needs to have quite a good year even if it is at a lower level.

David's preseason form was very solid and it was unfortunate for him to be struck down by a hamstring injury in the lead-up to the season proper. He is a player who really seemed to enjoy playing under Mick and was responding accordingly. Had he been available I have little doubt that we'd have seen him at senior level already. Returned last week through the VFL and performed well (albeit in a dominant side) and I think we'll see him in the senior side sooner rather than later. I was leaning towards him being let go at the end of the year but, like AJ, I'm now leaning in the other direction. I think he'll be around for a little while yet.

The other player who may not be around in 2014 is Scotland who I think will hang up the boots after a fantastic career. He's been a wonderful servant but there comes a time when things come to an end and I think 2013 may be it for Scotto. I think we've got a really nice replacement waiting in Tuohy who has a fair bit of senior experience but at 23 or so has plenty of footy left in him and is developing nicely. I see a fair few similarities in their games so I think there's an opportunity there to make the transition to post-Scotto football that little bit easier. Whilst I think this is Heath's final season, I've been saying that for years. 2012 was arguably his finest year and he seems to be getting better as the years go on so it's just impossible to put that line through him but I do think it will be his final season.

I still think this will be Scotto's final season, in fact I'm more certain about this coming to fruition than I am about any other player losing their place on the list at the end of this season.

One player who was not mentioned in my quoted post but who I feel is in real danger is Duigan. Nick is of course in the leadership group this season but that ultimately doesn't count for much. Featured in round 1 but really seemed to struggle and has not reappeared since. I have no doubt that he will feature at senior level at times in 2013 but I don't see him as best 22 and I think it will be almost impossible for him to force his way back in. Will be an outstanding mentor for the younger players at VFL level and as mentioned elsewhere he seems a sound candidate for a coaching position down the track. I think this will be Nick's final year on the list.

The above mentioned names are the ones who I think are in most danger of being let go at the end of the year. There are other players with question marks surrounding them for different reasons who may be raised in list management meetings but who ultimately I believe will be at the club next season. McCarthy and Mitchell won't want a poor season but I'd be amazed if either were to be let go. Laidler has not had an ideal start to the season and hopefully his absence is purely due to fitness rather than not seeing eye to eye with the coaching staff as he's too good and important a player to not be at the club in 2014. Warnock is another who may find himself on the way out but he is contracted so should be safe, but I can see him being moved on via trade should an opposition club come knocking hard enough. The other two are queries regarding retirements - Judd and Waite. Judd is out of contract and may choose to finish at the end of the year but I think he'll stick around for a little while yet. Similarly, Waite may decide that enough is enough due to injury, but like Judd, I find this unlikely albeit possible.

As I said, it is very early on in the season, certainly too early to put a line through anyone in particular but there are a number of players who need to have a big season to justify their retention in 2014. Will be very interesting to revisit this post and indeed this thread as the season progresses and the picture becomes that little bit more clear.