List Mgmt. Our Midfield

[Arr0w]

Think about what it is missing? Who is your shutdown small defender?

Who is your crumbing goalkicker?

Last year one of the key reasons we lost so much was going too top heavy in the backline.

So you don't think a fit Doc or Willo will make a difference, or Fisher and SPS spending more time forward?

I call BS on being too top heavy, Tigers and WC proved that theory to be a myth

 

[BlueView]

Clubs are too conservative with trades my belief is we should have traded Gibbs far earlier than the original offer from Adelaide he wasn’t the right type of player for our side, he would have destroyed it at a team like Hawthorn.

Why not trade a required player if another clubs willing to pay overs the GWS looks like they’ll win the Shiel trade quite convincingly.

Even though I like SPS as a player he’d probably be one if the club thought we had a superabundance of midfielders and we could potentially cover him that would command some serious interest from other clubs. Clubs need to make the call early on where think think a player will get to, while that player commands maximum currency.

 

[Juddernaut08]

So you don't think a fit Doc or Willo will make a difference, or Fisher and SPS spending more time forward?

I call BS on being too top heavy, Tigers and WC proved that theory to be a myth

They will make a difference, but still, who is your lockdown small defender? If we added McGovern and Andrews to the team would you play 7 KPDs because...talent?

There is a balance that is important.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Clubs are too conservative with trades my belief is we should have traded Gibbs far earlier than the original offer from Adelaide he wasn’t the right type of player for our side, he would have destroyed it at a team like Hawthorn.

Why not trade a required player if another clubs willing to pay overs the GWS looks like they’ll win the Shiel trade quite convincingly.

Even though I like SPS as a player he’d probably be one if the club thought we had a superabundance of midfielders and we could potentially cover him that would command some serious interest from other clubs. Clubs need to make the call early on where think think a player will get to, while that player commands maximum currency.

I don't think SPS would command the sort of draft pick you're thinking of. A pick in the mid teens is all you'd get. At that point in the draft, it can become a bit hit and miss.

I like your thinking though.

We tried to do that with Kreuzer but it didn't quite work out.

I still reckon we needed Gibbs during the early stages of our rebuild. He was one of our best players and was at least keeping us somewhat competitive during a rough period.

 

[Jeremias]

Even though I like SPS as a player he’d probably be one if the club thought we had a superabundance of midfielders and we could potentially cover him that would command some serious interest from other clubs. Clubs need to make the call early on where think think a player will get to, while that player commands maximum currency.

Think you're contradicting yourself here.

If we believe SPS will develop into a star, trading him at the end of this year is not trading him when he "commands maximum currency".

What is a club going to offer us to make us even consider trading SPS at the end of 2019?

 

[Eiffel 65]

They will make a difference, but still, who is your lockdown small defender? If we added McGovern and Andrews to the team would you play 7 KPDs because...talent?

There is a balance that is important.

I reckon plowman is the lockdown small/mid defender.

Just look at how well he nullified Dustin Martin when he was deep inside forward 50.

 

[BlueView]

I don't think SPS would command the sort of draft pick you're thinking of. A pick in the mid teens is all you'd get. At that point in the draft, it can become a bit hit and miss.

I like your thinking though.

We tried to do that with Kreuzer but it didn't quite work out.

I still reckon we needed Gibbs during the early stages of our rebuild. He was one of our best players and was at least keeping us somewhat competitive during a rough period.

It’ll depend a lot on this years form if he has a good year he’ll have 3 seasons under his belt he’ll be at close to maximum currency. Where that sits is remains to be seen....but your right on form to date a mid first round is about spot on. Disagree on Gibbs, he was a good player but always thought he was a complimentary player he did keep us competitive but it’s about winning premierships not being competitive. It would have set us back but we never got anywhere anyway

 

[BlueView]

Think you're contradicting yourself here.

If we believe SPS will develop into a star, trading him at the end of this year is not trading him when he "commands maximum currency".

What is a club going to offer us to make us even consider trading SPS at the end of 2019?

Like I said we’d have too see where it plays out and I’m using SPS as an example....if the club thinks he’s going to be an absolute star by years end then no of course they wouldn’t consider it if they think he’s going to be an ok to good player and another clubs champing at the bit then of course consider it. It’s a delicate balancing act and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. GWS didn’t want to lose Shiel either...but it looks like it’ll pay dividends.

 

[Arr0w]

They will make a difference, but still, who is your lockdown small defender? If we added McGovern and Andrews to the team would you play 7 KPDs because...talent?

There is a balance that is important.

Who was Richmond's or WC's specialist small lock down defender?

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Who was Richmond's or WC's specialist small lock down defender?

I rate sheppard and Hurn as brilliant defenders who can lock down hard on a lot of smalls.

Richmond have Grimes, whilst taller does the job on absolutely anyone that isn't the number one tall. Plus Broad and short go alright locking players down.

 

[true blue19]

I don't understand why we are playing Ed and Gibbons in the forward line. If our goal is to win, then the player that need to play the most midfield minutes must be Cripps, Ed, Murphy and Gibbons (Gibbons may be new to the AFL but is a mature body) protect the kids and play Walsh and Setterfield forward with short runs throw the midfield.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I don't understand why we are playing Ed and Gibbons in the forward line. If our goal is to win, then the player that need to play the most midfield minutes must be Cripps, Ed, Murphy and Gibbons (Gibbons may be new to the AFL but is a mature body) protect the kids and play Walsh and Setterfield forward with short runs throw the midfield.

yeah, I'm with ya on this tb19....can't see the logic of playing players out of position to try and manufacture something that it's not.

We've been trying to manufacture a forward line with bits and pieces since Fev, and have failed dismally time after time.

Gibbo is a midfielder who averaged nearly 30 possessions per game at VFL...ffs, play him there and they may be surprised that he excels in the position that he's played all of his life. He's not a ****ing small forward for god's sake!! Ed is a 'go with' player with elite endurance that can lock down his opponent and pick up 25 odd possessions along the way...oh, let's make him a defensive forward now at 29yo.

You think they would have learned by now from the mistakes of the past.

 

[Arr0w]

I rate sheppard and Hurn as brilliant defenders who can lock down hard on a lot of smalls.

Richmond have Grimes, whilst taller does the job on absolutely anyone that isn't the number one tall. Plus Broad and short go alright locking players down.

Great defenders I agree, but are able to play better on smaller types as their back lines built continuity

I doubt many were rating Grimes (or defensive unit) as being able to lock down the best small forward prior to their flag

 

[Faz 2000]

yeah, I'm with ya on this tb19....can't see the logic of playing players out of position to try and manufacture something that it's not.

We've been trying to manufacture a forward line with bits and pieces since Fev, and have failed dismally time after time.

Gibbo is a midfielder who averaged nearly 30 possessions per game at VFL...ffs, play him there and they may be surprised that he excels in the position that he's played all of his life. He's not a ****ing small forward for god's sake!! Ed is a 'go with' player with elite endurance that can lock down his opponent and pick up 25 odd possessions along the way...oh, let's make him a defensive forward now at 29yo.

You think they would have learned by now from the mistakes of the past.

Fully agree. We lack players who have a proper knack for kicking goals. You know thosse annoying little forwards that are sneaky and quick and run around the corner and don't miss? We don't have them. Fasolo is our token effort here, and hopefully he can get himself going, but we'd look tons better with a Gresham, Higgins, Rioli (pick one), Breust type. Ed and Gibbons have roles to play, but neither shows any of the tricks one needs to be a dangerous forward. Seems odd playing both forward where their lack of flair and weapons and ability to hurt on the scoreboard nerfs our forward line.

 

[HARKER]

I don't understand why we are playing Ed and Gibbons in the forward line. If our goal is to win, then the player that need to play the most midfield minutes must be Cripps, Ed, Murphy and Gibbons (Gibbons may be new to the AFL but is a mature body) protect the kids and play Walsh and Setterfield forward with short runs throw the midfield.

Carlton won the clearances against Richmond with only Cripps involved.
We wouldn't have done any better with Murphy and ECurnow in the centre and certainly not Gibbons.

We now have to push forward with playing the young guys, where they know how to play best.
Cripps is the first hands to the ball player and Fisher makes for a good 1/2 act with him.
SPS will have much better games, Dow is growing, Setterfield looks like a veteran already and Walsh will get his moments.
Throw in Kennedy, flashes of Cuningham (he's been good) and maybe a little Murphy, ECurnow and Gibbons.....but only a little.

Our midfield is doping fine and it will get tired as the season goes on, but so what?
Murphy now has a new home and ECurnow does have a function outside of playing midfield. We'll be fine.

 

[HARKER]

Fully agree. We lack players who have a proper knack for kicking goals. You know thosse annoying little forwards that are sneaky and quick and run around the corner and don't miss? We don't have them. Fasolo is our token effort here, and hopefully he can get himself going, but we'd look tons better with a Gresham, Higgins, Rioli (pick one), Breust type. Ed and Gibbons have roles to play, but neither shows any of the tricks one needs to be a dangerous forward. Seems odd playing both forward where their lack of flair and weapons and ability to hurt on the scoreboard nerfs our forward line.

I don't understand when people say that we don't need these smaller/mid-sized goal-kickers.
Is there any back-man that will fear Gibbons, ECurnow and Polson when pitted up against them?
Are the back-men likely to be out-marked? Out-paced?
Are any of those three going to regularly kick goals form a crumb and centre? Snap a goal from the boundary? Kick a goal from 50 out?
So all the opposition back-men have to worry about os being tackled? That's it?

I said from the start that maybe we can house one, but certainly not all three as was being put forward early on.
Seems Polson has unsurprisingly fallen off the radar after being spoken about as being a permanent.
Maybe he will yet be, but not as a forward, I wouldn't think.

It was clear why these players are even being considered for these roles; We just don't have anyone better.
We may have to do something about that at years end.

 

[CJMB]

I don't understand why we are playing Ed and Gibbons in the forward line. If our goal is to win, then the player that need to play the most midfield minutes must be Cripps, Ed, Murphy and Gibbons (Gibbons may be new to the AFL but is a mature body) protect the kids and play Walsh and Setterfield forward with short runs throw the midfield.

I'm confident we'll get better value out of Murph these days by playing him a little further outside the stoppage, on a wing rather than on the ball.

I'd like to see Ed go back to being a dedicated tagger. Maybe start him out of the square and either running with an opposition winger or heading inside to latch onto his target in the square.

As for Gibbons.... let's not get carried away there. Yes, he's older than some of the kids and killed it at a lower league, but there's no way I'm playing him in the middle ahead of Fisher, Dow, SPS, Setterfield, Walsh, etc.

Firstly, the guy is 175cm & 75kg, he's just about the smallest bloke on our list, I'm not sure he'd be doing much 'protecting' of our kids, who aside from Fisher all have inches and multiple kilos on him.

Secondly, just because he's older doesn't mean he's fitter. Last week he played 71% TOG as a forward, how's he going to handle playing 85-90% TOG like Cripps, Murph, Ed, let alone by adding midfield time there. Just like our draftees, Gibbo will need time in an AFL system to build his tank. Not a slight on the little fella, just part & parcel with competing at a professional level.

Lastly, and again this is no slight on him, I feel like he's still adjusting to the speed of the game. It's a big step up from VFL, and probably a touch more intense this year with the starting positions. So, just like Walsh & Setters found on Thursday, it's a bit harder to get and dispose of the ball as it's all happening so fast.

Come this time next year I'm sure Gibbo will be fit enough to spend some time in the midfield and will have adjusted to the pace. The guy obviously has a good footy brain, we can watch him put himself in some good positions to assist/get involved in the play, and a hell of a lot of experience, albeit at a lower level. I just think this year is going to be a bit of a development year for him.

If we want to add some physical heat around the contest, I'm suggesting we bring Kennedy back (if he's fit....) and let him be Crippa's sidekick as far as being a blunt force instrument at the stoppage. Let Ed do some tagging, be it on an inside or outside player. Don't ask the smaller guys like Murph, Fish, Gibbo, SPS to do that kind of heavy lifting as it's not their bag.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Who was Richmond's or WC's specialist small lock down defender?

I rate sheppard and Hurn as brilliant defenders who can lock down hard on a lot of smalls.

Richmond have Grimes, whilst taller does the job on absolutely anyone that isn't the number one tall. Plus Broad and short go alright locking players down.

Stop being so defensive with your replies, I have no agenda against any Carlton supporter, just putting legitimate discussion points up.

The point is, we have specific needs and blindly recruiting more talent without regard to these needs nor position is not the answer when we are in dire need for small defenders and small forwards.

Playing mids in the forwardline does not make them small forwards. Playing 4.5 KPDs (Williamson) doesn't work either. We should have learned this from last year's top-heavy team.

 

[JustaBattler]

Small forward lack of presence was underlined to me anyway in the video where Rance did his knee. High ball to a Phillips who presented in front of goal square (in a two on one but that is another story) he causes spillage goal side....- and......no Carlton small anywhere near the contest as in nowhere to be seen. Waste of time and effort and points to underlying dysfunction game was there to be won and no one from Carlton was anywhere near target for an easy crumb and goal. This episode pretty much illustrated why team rebound so easily - can't seem top get the type of pressure required when it is required - every time. 71% time on ground is a joke when up against better sides.

 

[kjr8]

It’ll depend a lot on this years form if he has a good year he’ll have 3 seasons under his belt he’ll be at close to maximum currency. Where that sits is remains to be seen....but your right on form to date a mid first round is about spot on. Disagree on Gibbs, he was a good player but always thought he was a complimentary player he did keep us competitive but it’s about winning premierships not being competitive. It would have set us back but we never got anywhere anyway

so we basically invest on a kid's development and then give him away for someone else to reap the rewards? How many teams do you see giving up top 10 picks, accumulated during a re-build, just as they're at the back-end of the rebuild plan?

 

[Arr0w]

Stop being so defensive with your replies, I have no agenda against any Carlton supporter, just putting legitimate discussion points up.

The point is, we have specific needs and blindly recruiting more talent without regard to these needs nor position is not the answer when we are in dire need for small defenders and small forwards.

Playing mids in the forwardline does not make them small forwards. Playing 4.5 KPDs (Williamson) doesn't work either. We should have learned this from last year's top-heavy team.

Not defensive at all, just interested who you think is a specialist lockdown small defender for WC and Tigers over the last 2 years

As for mids playing forward, Greene, Gray and even Cyril were recruited as mids

Not sure why anyone has an issue with resting the likes of Fisher forward, who would be a damaging small forward in any side

 

[Juddernaut08]

Not defensive at all, just interested who you think is a specialist lockdown small defender for WC and Tigers over the last 2 years

SkyhorseTamer has already answered your question. But you're still not addressing the issue, just deflecting and talking about other teams.

If you're not interested in talking about the Carlton list, that's fine let's just move on instead of whining. If you are interested in talking about the Carlton list, I repeat: who are our small defenders and forwards (from your unbalanced list)?

 

[HARKER]

Not defensive at all, just interested who you think is a specialist lockdown small defender for WC and Tigers over the last 2 years
As for mids playing forward, Greene, Gray and even Cyril were recruited as mids
Not sure why anyone has an issue with resting the likes of Fisher forward, who would be a damaging small forward in any side

He'd be handy but he's a mid and he's not dual-sided.
I like the Cripps/Fisher synergy that seems to be coming along and shouldn't be broken just because we haven't any small forwards.
Fisher also won't be jumping on peoples heads taking marks, the way the aforementioned could

How's this for an idea; Go and get some small forwards.
How we could have neglected them to this point in time and then having to 'trial' others, almost comes across as an after-thought.

 

[Juddernaut08]

He'd be handy but he's a mid and he's not dual-sided.
I like the Cripps/Fisher synergy that seems to be coming along and shouldn't be broken just because we haven't any small forwards.
Fisher also won't be jumping on peoples heads taking marks, the way the aforementioned could

How's this for an idea; Go and get some small forwards.
How we could have neglected them to this point in time and then having to 'trial' others, almost comes across as an after-thought.

When it leads to playing Gibbons, Fasolo, Wright and midfielders as forwards, it is definitely a neglected position.

 

[HARKER]

When it leads to playing Gibbons, Fasolo, Wright and midfielders as forwards, it is definitely a neglected position.

It's no offence to the players as much as some may seem it to be, to some.

Gibbons isn't a small forward.
He was passed on in the ND as a mid. Was passed on in the RD as a mid...but somehow he's become our first picked small forward?

Polson is a mid, but has somehow been asked to be a pressuring small forward.
It's not as much as not giving them a chance, but tell me how Polson os going to become damaging in our best team?

ECurnow as a forward?
There's a lot that may not go right, but at least he gets possessions, can loosen himself from packs, can offer instruction on the run etc

Anyway, we have what we have for now, but would sooner Murphy played as a deep forward and not on the wing.
Surely that will come about when Williamson is healthy again and when O'Brien finds form.....surely?