List Mgmt. Our Midfield

[Mr_Plow]

We should be pursuing Coniglio hard, very hard. If we don't get him then somebody else pays big, no worries.

He steps straight in as an elite two way mid replacing Murphy's midfield output.

 

[Soapy V]

I agree with most of your points re: the risk of going all out to get someone like Coniglio. In particular the cost might be a bit high (not that it is not deserved on his part). But I personally don't think there is a strong argument to be made that Shiel is on the same level as Coniglio.

Coniglio is twice the player that Shiel is and that is saying something cause I think Shiel is a great player, just not a superstar like Coniglio. He is top 10-15 player in the game, vs maybe top 50-60 in Shiel.

If that's really the case we have done even better by missing out on Shiel.

I'm also assuming that if we got Shiel last year we couldn't afford Coniglio or similar next year? Gets even better

 

[Soapy V]

So we somehow won for having lost?
That doesn't sound like particularly good list management to me.
In the end, I'm glad we didn't pay what Essendon did for him, but we can't with a straight face suggest we were 'lucky' to have not hit our target.

Why? The club wanted Shiel and went hard. We didn't get him and I was happy with that especially since we got Setterfield instead then Stocker & Newman plus we still have a first round pick this draft. We now also have money (if talk is to be believed) to get another gun player at years end .

Club may disagree but I definitely think we "lucked" out when Shiel picked Essendon. JMO

 

[Jabba73]

Would hope we offer a very large contract to Cognilio on the understanding we will not be trading for him if GWS match the offer.

Cannot see them being able to keep him if the first year or two is in the region of $1.2m+ and tapers off after that. Will take some very creative accounting for them to keep him and the rest of the list together. Call their bluff if they are only matching the bid to force us to trade.

If it is true we have been banking SC, it has a limited shelf life so we should try and use it while we can, to avoid trading. Gives us a second proven midfielder to help set the standards as the young talent matures.

 

[Jeremias]

Couldn't disagree more. I believe in the end we got a much better deal. Setterfield will be better than Shiel anyway and Stocker will be a beauty. Not spending the money also allowed us to sign Newman

Shiel is a gun, Setterfield has played 2 games & Stocker is yet to debut.

I’m very happy with our work over the offseason but please, let’s be realistic.

You also seem to have grossly overestimated the amount of money we’ve spent on Newman. Missing out on Shiel and bringing in Newman have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Soapy V]

Shiel is a gun, Setterfield has played 2 games & Stocker is yet to debut.

I’m very happy with our work over the offseason but please, let’s be realistic.

You also seem to have grossly overestimated the amount of money we’ve spent on Newman. Missing out on Shiel and bringing in Newman have nothing to do with one another.

If your judging it now then yes BUT IMO we will be so much better off. It's not about the now. Setterfield was drafted Pick 5 and we rated Stocker 6. We also still have another first round pick next year (another gun) which wouldn't have happened. If we had got Shiel we wouldn't have discussed Newman as a possibility. Losing Shiel on $1.2m and instead bringing in Setterfield ($400k) & Stocker (draftee) made it easier for us to offer Newman ($350k approx) over 2-3 years. If we had got Shiel we would have done little else

Instead of Shiel we got Setterfield, Stocker, Newman and still have a First Round pick to come next year and money left to chase someone else. IMO that is way better

You disagree and that's fine but IMO we are just so much better off. Easily

The other bonus is we made Essendon pay way overs for a player that has 2-3 years at his best and won't lead them to a flag Also GWS got Caldwell with their pick and IMO will be elite and they still have a pick to go.

 

[ShanDog]

imagine if you will - sitting in the stands - and after each goal, the ball is bounced in the traditional manner - and then....wait for it - and then, the ball moves towards OUR forward line, ie. the ball is cleared from the centre bounce TOWARDS OUR FORWARD LINE.......


as you were.....

I'll be impressed when the ball goes forward in a controlled manner and hits a target.

 

[Coona Blues]

Coniglio. He's a freaking jet. How could you not want him?



Seriously. You dont think we should at least try?

I have always had heaps of time for Coniglio, this video confirms another string to his bow, those highlights were full of goals and goal assists, largely in the absence
of Greene. He is the ultimate utility midfielder. Extractor, ball winner, line breaker, tagger, distributor, creator and goal kicker.

I guess I had been of the opinion that we should put the hat in the ring, but not break the bank. However he fits our needs perfectly. We don't need for any
particular type of mid. Simply experience and leadership in a quality footballer to bridge the gap post Murphy, Simpson, Thomas and even Ed Curnow. Similarly
we need forward strike power, mids that if needed can play decent forward minutes and kick or create goals. Although an unlikely use for a "thoroughbred" he
is an equally good tagger to Ed C, so gives us options.

If he has any interest, yes, let's go hard. We have a bad habit of underestimating some of the players at interstate clubs. We all recognise him as quality, he is
even a bit better, but also a great team man. While Treloar, Kelly, Shiel and others are seen as the star quality, Ward and Coniglio provide the fabric that binds.
The more I look at, the more I see him as a spectacular fit. Midfield, forward, half back he can do it all, so when we are contending in a couple of years, he provides
the Burgoyne fix it option in a still young side.

This is however, his pivotal career contract. Does he stay a one club player? Does he go home to WA? Does he seek success in the epicentre of the footy world?

I still support the Soapy V mentality that we may well have enough and have to start thinking retention. However, we still need roll players. In Coniglio, we would
potentially have a gun who can fill a number of those rolls, as the back end of his career nears. If it hastens the end a year for Murphy and Simmo to nab Cogs, so
be it. Worth a big, big offer.

 

[BJuddy]

Centre-square/inside mids (whose talents are best maximised in contested situations and packs): Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, Stocker.

These are the guys who will be absorbing the greatest number of centre bounce attendances.

Balanced mids (equally effective on the outside through run, carry and effective disposals as they are at winning the football): Walsh, Setterfield, Fisher, SPS.

Outside mids/elite runners: O'Brien, Williamson, Cuningham.

Incredible assortment of talent and there is plenty of crossover in terms of the ability to play multiple roles within the midfield.

I want to see Samo's running improve significantly to the point that he is used as a handball receive machine through the middle of the ground. How Hawthorn used Burgoyne as that designated kicker inside 50. The addition of these bigger bodies allows us to release him from contested situations to maximise his elite disposal.

What I like about all these are none of them are afraid on contact / soft.

If I look at our inside mids they are all as tough as nails.

then I look at the balanced mids and they all don't mind contact.

Then You look at the outside runners, and you have Willo, LOB and Cunners who are all as hard as a cats head.

This to me is exciting! No more footstep hearing wimps i.e Boekhorst, Menzel, etc

 

[Soapy V]

What I like about all these are none of them are afraid on contact / soft.

If I look at our inside mids they are all as tough as nails.

then I look at the balanced mids and they all don't mind contact.

Then You look at the outside runners, and you have Willo, LOB and Cunners who are all as hard as a cats head.

This to me is exciting! No more footstep hearing wimps i.e Boekhorst, Menzel, etc

Totally agree. Adding Bugg & Newman hasn't hurt either. Big bodies that have no issue putting in

 

[Doro]

I have always had heaps of time for Coniglio, this video confirms another string to his bow, those highlights were full of goals and goal assists, largely in the absence
of Greene. He is the ultimate utility midfielder. Extractor, ball winner, line breaker, tagger, distributor, creator and goal kicker.

I guess I had been of the opinion that we should put the hat in the ring, but not break the bank. However he fits our needs perfectly. We don't need for any
particular type of mid. Simply experience and leadership in a quality footballer to bridge the gap post Murphy, Simpson, Thomas and even Ed Curnow. Similarly
we need forward strike power, mids that if needed can play decent forward minutes and kick or create goals. Although an unlikely use for a "thoroughbred" he
is an equally good tagger to Ed C, so gives us options.

If he has any interest, yes, let's go hard. We have a bad habit of underestimating some of the players at interstate clubs. We all recognise him as quality, he is
even a bit better, but also a great team man. While Treloar, Kelly, Shiel and others are seen as the star quality, Ward and Coniglio provide the fabric that binds.
The more I look at, the more I see him as a spectacular fit. Midfield, forward, half back he can do it all, so when we are contending in a couple of years, he provides
the Burgoyne fix it option in a still young side.

This is however, his pivotal career contract. Does he stay a one club player? Does he go home to WA? Does he seek success in the epicentre of the footy world?

I still support the Soapy V mentality that we may well have enough and have to start thinking retention. However, we still need roll players. In Coniglio, we would
potentially have a gun who can fill a number of those rolls, as the back end of his career nears. If it hastens the end a year for Murphy and Simmo to nab Cogs, so
be it. Worth a big, big offer.

He is quality Cogs and history shows us that GWS is continuing to see quality players leave and replacing them via high end draft compensation. Another kid picked by SOS, a free agent and in the age/quality gap that still exists on our list. Silly not to enquire, though we are probably well down the list for Coniglio as a destination. As soon as the wins become more regular the opposition player managers will be ringing Carlton and not as leverage. I agree missing on Shiel may not be the worst thing that has happened considering his trade price.

 

[WeAreTheNavyBlues]

First post. Go easy. I am surprised there isn't a greater interest in Kelly. For me, he is more of what we need than Coniglio as well as being a few years younger. It all comes back to the cost vs benefit of it as he will also require $1.2m+ per season along with two first rounders. Can just see him receiving off Cripps, Setterfield, Kennedy etc. and breaking the lines which is what we need imo.

 

[Soapy V]

First post. Go easy. I am surprised there isn't a greater interest in Kelly. For me, he is more of what we need than Coniglio as well as being a few years younger. It all comes back to the cost vs benefit of it as he will also require $1.2m+ per season along with two first rounders. Can just see him receiving off Cripps, Setterfield, Kennedy etc. and breaking the lines which is what we need imo.

I’m a massive Kelly fan and although not entirely against it I think he would cost $1.5m a year over 5 plus years and 2 first round picks.

Lot of eggs in one basket and paying that much for one player worries me

I can’t think of any times in the past 20 years where paying massive money and/or picks to recruit a player has really worked out well for a club. Burgoyne probably the closest but many though his career was over

 

[HARKER]

Why? The club wanted Shiel and went hard. We didn't get him and I was happy with that especially since we got Setterfield instead then Stocker & Newman plus we still have a first round pick this draft. We now also have money (if talk is to be believed) to get another gun player at years end .

Club may disagree but I definitely think we "lucked" out when Shiel picked Essendon. JMO

You may care to feel we dodged a bullet missing on Shiel but that would not, nor could not be the case for the club and we didn't get Setterfield instead, as we clearly wanted both but missed out on the premium target.

Essendon though did pay a lot... Like a lot more than they thought they would, but if we could have moved the 2019 first for Shiel, we would have been way in front.

 

[Blue__Balls]

First post. Go easy. I am surprised there isn't a greater interest in Kelly. For me, he is more of what we need than Coniglio as well as being a few years younger. It all comes back to the cost vs benefit of it as he will also require $1.2m+ per season along with two first rounders. Can just see him receiving off Cripps, Setterfield, Kennedy etc. and breaking the lines which is what we need imo.

Look, a newbie - get im!!

Seriously though, welcome, and nothing wrong with that line of thought.

Kelly would, theoretically, offer more on-field class than Coniglio. But as you also noted, he'd cost more money, and GWS would play extremely hard at the trade table. I suspect two first rounders (Adelaide's 2019 plus our 2020) wouldn't be enough - they'd be demanding a quality young player in return. It might work if someone wanted out, and we felt we had the depth to cover them, which probably means KPP rather than midfielder - McKay or Weitering being the standout prospects (with TDK/Kerr and Macreadie being the depth options behind them). Hypothetically though, if Kelly could be had for two first rounders and a little change, that's probably where we'd be at.

But the key consideration is - is the gap from Coniglio to Kelly worth those draft picks? I don't think it is. Both elite players, Kelly does more with the ball, but Coniglio does more without it. Those first round picks can be used on some handy players as well.

On field, that's Kelly/Stocker/Polson vs. something like Coniglio/Cerra/Gresham. Kelly better than Cogs, but securing him potentially prevents us from drastically improving two other best 22 spots.

I'll finish with the caveat that, should Kelly indicate he was open to playing for the Blues, I'd absolutely burn two first round picks to get him. I don't believe we'll be on his radar next year though, unless we have a much better year than even the most optimistic of us could be hoping for.

 

[BJuddy]

Look, a newbie - get im!!

Seriously though, welcome, and nothing wrong with that line of thought.

Kelly would, theoretically, offer more on-field class than Coniglio. But as you also noted, he'd cost more money, and GWS would play extremely hard at the trade table. I suspect two first rounders (Adelaide's 2019 plus our 2020) wouldn't be enough - they'd be demanding a quality young player in return. It might work if someone wanted out, and we felt we had the depth to cover them, which probably means KPP rather than midfielder - McKay or Weitering being the standout prospects (with TDK/Kerr and Macreadie being the depth options behind them). Hypothetically though, if Kelly could be had for two first rounders and a little change, that's probably where we'd be at.

But the key consideration is - is the gap from Coniglio to Kelly worth those draft picks? I don't think it is. Both elite players, Kelly does more with the ball, but Coniglio does more without it. Those first round picks can be used on some handy players as well.

On field, that's Kelly/Stocker/Polson vs. something like Coniglio/Cerra/Gresham. Kelly better than Cogs, but securing him potentially prevents us from drastically improving two other best 22 spots.

I'll finish with the caveat that, should Kelly indicate he was open to playing for the Blues, I'd absolutely burn two first round picks to get him. I don't believe we'll be on his radar next year though, unless we have a much better year than even the most optimistic of us could be hoping for.

Precisely it for me. Cogs is a FA so cost is cash and i am happy with that but still not sold, definitely if we got him though I would be over the moon.

Kelly is a trade so big money (probably bigger money which i am still okay with you gotta pay for quality) but the cost on the trade table for me is where it gets to much. Kelly would be huge get for any team let alone ours, however the cost may outweigh the benefit IMO.

 

[Soapy V]

You may care to feel we dodged a bullet missing on Shiel but that would not, nor could not be the case for the club and we didn't get Setterfield instead, as we clearly wanted both but missed out on the premium target.

Essendon though did pay a lot... Like a lot more than they thought they would, but if we could have moved the 2019 first for Shiel, we would have been way in front.

Disagree apart from the bit where we dodged a bullet

 

[Eiffel 65]

Coniglio. He's a freaking jet. How could you not want him?



Seriously. You dont think we should at least try?

I don't think we need him.

Just take a step back and have a proper look at other clubs and their list profiles. How about Essendon prior to the Shiel trade.

Now lets take a closer look at their midfield.

Tier 1 Midfielders: Heppell and Merrett
Tier 2 Midfielders: Zaharakis, McGrath and Smith
Tier 3 Midfielders: Parish and Myers
Tier 4 Midfielders: Guelfi and maybe a few other part timers such as langford etc.

Essendon don't exactly run deep through the midfield and in all honesty, I reckon my ratings for a couple of the tier 2 midfielders are on the generous side.

If Essendon are at the limit of their cap with that midfield, we need to be careful how we manage our cap space in the coming years with the likes of Walsh, Stocker, Dow, O'brien, Fisher, SPS, Setterfield, Kennedy, Cripps + future first round selections coming through the door.

A lot of these guys are on base/average salaries at the moment and that will change very quickly. We need to plan carefully for the future.

Yes, I've heard the argument for frontloading contracts, but that doesn't guarantee we won't have cap issues in 3 years time when Coniglio is still on an 800k+ wage.

I'm not saying I don't want Coniglio, I'm just saying I'd prefer to retain our existing group.

 

[BJuddy]

I don't think we need him.

Just take a step back and have a proper look at other clubs and their list profiles. How about Essendon prior to the Shiel trade.

Now lets take a closer look at their midfield.

Tier 1 Midfielders: Heppell and Merrett
Tier 2 Midfielders: Zaharakis, McGrath and Smith
Tier 3 Midfielders: Parish and Myers
Tier 4 Midfielders: Guelfi and maybe a few other part timers such as langford etc.

Essendon don't exactly run deep through the midfield and in all honesty, I reckon my ratings for a couple of the tier 2 midfielders are on the generous side.

If Essendon are at the limit of their cap with that midfield, we need to be careful how we manage our cap space in the coming years with the likes of Walsh, Stocker, Dow, O'brien, Fisher, SPS, Setterfield, Kennedy, Cripps + future first round selections coming through the door.

A lot of these guys are on base/average salaries at the moment and that will change very quickly. We need to plan carefully for the future.

Yes, I've heard the argument for frontloading contracts, but that doesn't guarantee we won't have cap issues in 3 years time when Coniglio is still on an 800k+ wage.

I'm not saying I don't want Coniglio, I'm just saying I'd prefer to retain our existing group.

You have sold me... Essendon SUCK, thats the point, yeah??

 

[Soapy V]

I don't think we need him.

Just take a step back and have a proper look at other clubs and their list profiles. How about Essendon prior to the Shiel trade.

Now lets take a closer look at their midfield.

Tier 1 Midfielders: Heppell and Merrett
Tier 2 Midfielders: Zaharakis, McGrath and Smith
Tier 3 Midfielders: Parish and Myers
Tier 4 Midfielders: Guelfi and maybe a few other part timers such as langford etc.

Essendon don't exactly run deep through the midfield and in all honesty, I reckon my ratings for a couple of the tier 2 midfielders are on the generous side.

If Essendon are at the limit of their cap with that midfield, we need to be careful how we manage our cap space in the coming years with the likes of Walsh, Stocker, Dow, O'brien, Fisher, SPS, Setterfield, Kennedy, Cripps + future first round selections coming through the door.

A lot of these guys are on base/average salaries at the moment and that will change very quickly. We need to plan carefully for the future.

Yes, I've heard the argument for frontloading contracts, but that doesn't guarantee we won't have cap issues in 3 years time when Coniglio is still on an 800k+ wage.

I'm not saying I don't want Coniglio, I'm just saying I'd prefer to retain our existing group.

Great post. My concern has always been balancing the list and what it costs us. Cripps Weitering SPS Charlie Setterfield Dow Marchbank McKay Walsh etc will cost us a lot of money soon and you can’t front end them all.

Like you I’m not against signing anyone. It’s the cost the concerns me. Who’s to say we may not have a quiet settling year this year and target someone heavily in 2020 when we have had a really good look at our list and stocked up some money?

I just find the fact that their is a good FA available so we must chase him too simplistic.

Need to keep eye on big picture and that is to build a great side for the next decade or so

 

[katmanblue]

for the 20th time I have never said ONCE he was no good or we won't try

You have previously said you haven't said. People should really pay attention the first time.

FFS. [emoji6]

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[windows1]

Interesting. Do many people think similar?

Yes. For sure. He’s a goal kicking pack busting bullet proof GUN. He’s a length ahead of Shiel.

 

[marleyblue]

Interesting debate - I'm fully in the Coniglio corner, he's an absolute gun player, young versatile, goal kicking mid and a free agent.
While I appreciate Soapy's concerns on future retention, how has anything changed in 3 months? Carlton was right up to our eyeballs in the Shiel chase and the dollars for Cogs will not be significantly different.

I trust SOS to manage our cap and the club clearly communicated we have the financial capacity (including the banked $) and desire to bring in elite talent in the desired age bracket. I expect we will have a real crack but unfortunately doubt he's looking our way.

 

[Soapy V]

Interesting debate - I'm fully in the Coniglio corner, he's an absolute gun player, young versatile, goal kicking mid and a free agent.
While I appreciate Soapy's concerns on future retention, how has anything changed in 3 months? Carlton was right up to our eyeballs in the Shiel chase and the dollars for Cogs will not be significantly different.

I trust SOS to manage our cap and the club clearly communicated we have the financial capacity (including the banked $) and desire to bring in elite talent in the desired age bracket. I expect we will have a real crack but unfortunately doubt he's looking our way.

Good post. Only thing I will say is it will be 12 months since we tried to get Shiel and lot will have changed by then

How we perform in 2019 will influence a lot

 

[katmanblue]

Look, a newbie - get im!!

Seriously though, welcome, and nothing wrong with that line of thought.

Kelly would, theoretically, offer more on-field class than Coniglio. But as you also noted, he'd cost more money, and GWS would play extremely hard at the trade table. I suspect two first rounders (Adelaide's 2019 plus our 2020) wouldn't be enough - they'd be demanding a quality young player in return. It might work if someone wanted out, and we felt we had the depth to cover them, which probably means KPP rather than midfielder - McKay or Weitering being the standout prospects (with TDK/Kerr and Macreadie being the depth options behind them). Hypothetically though, if Kelly could be had for two first rounders and a little change, that's probably where we'd be at.

But the key consideration is - is the gap from Coniglio to Kelly worth those draft picks? I don't think it is. Both elite players, Kelly does more with the ball, but Coniglio does more without it. Those first round picks can be used on some handy players as well.

On field, that's Kelly/Stocker/Polson vs. something like Coniglio/Cerra/Gresham. Kelly better than Cogs, but securing him potentially prevents us from drastically improving two other best 22 spots.

I'll finish with the caveat that, should Kelly indicate he was open to playing for the Blues, I'd absolutely burn two first round picks to get him. I don't believe we'll be on his radar next year though, unless we have a much better year than even the most optimistic of us could be hoping for.

Nailed it!

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