Our No 1 priority

[theflea]

While I said pretty much the same thing after last weeks game tugga, I reckon last night was Gus Grahams best game for the club. His form up to last night was ordinary, and maybe last nights game can turn it around a bit for him. He did lumber around at times when he should have motored to the backlline and he fell over a couple of times, but a big improvement overall.

Of course, his opposition was ordinary - Santa Claws' love child Cameron Wood is the worst ruckman in the league by a country mile.

sorry mate cant disagree more. he won the hitouts by all he does is tap hit to his chest! cannot hit it further that a foot. so frustrating!

 

[theflea]

And the most improved big man so far this year is Jamar at 27yo. Compare him and Gus at the same age. 2011/2007

Gus - Jamar

10.5 ave disp 6.2
3.5 mark 2.3
6 tackles 2.5
27.8 hitouts 9.7

yes but he can jump. gus cant.

 

[happy_punter]

sorry mate cant disagree more. he won the hitouts by all he does is tap hit to his chest! cannot hit it further that a foot. so frustrating!

Bullshit!!! He can thump the footy a long way in hit outs and was witnessed last night! Gus isn't the least mobile ruckmen and is worth keeping! Also one of our leading tacklers!

 

[tugga]

Graham is a serviceable footsoldier. I maintain we will not go anywhere without a dominant ruckman. Gus isn't the answer. Doesn't mean we delist him, but he's not the game breaker we need.

 

[scarecrow2k1]

Agree and we need to go for an ESTABLISHED one as the OP suggests, drafting or trading for an unestablished ruckman is just a roll of the dice, Vickery is showing a bit up Forward but clearly isn't going to be the Ruckman we wanted when we drafted him, or historically you can look at someone like Josh Fraser who went #1. The pies traded a high pick for Wood and he hasn't lived up to that.
Let's go for someone who already is a good ruckman, not living on potential.

Would LOVE to get Clarke from the Lions but not sure we could!

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

What is with this thread? He was dominant last night, probably his best game for us! Poor opposition, but seriously he played 80-90% game time without a solid break, won alot of hitouts and was the impetus for our 3rd quarter revival when he started to pin point hitouts right down the throats of our midfielders.

There are alot of other problems that need addressing before our ruck department! Key backs are our #1 issue at the moment- but nobody could have predicted the absence of McGuane and Rance- followed by small, lockdown defenders (only genuine one on our entire list is farmer and he is injured). We could also do with a fast, strong small/mid sized forward who can apply defensive pressure and nab a few goals.

 

[TJTIGER]

Wouldn't be making the call just yet on Graham, travelling just as well, if not better, as guys like Sandilands Hille & Jolly were at the same age. Sure there are some things that he needs to work on but lets not foget that he is yet to play 40 games and is still only 23 years old and ruckmen don't start hitting their peak until 25+.

I'm with you RT, I don't mind Gus. I'm happy for the club to be a bit more patient with him.

 

[folester41]

collingwood smashed us last night without a decent ruckmen, its not our number 1 priority and it shouldnt be adressed until we are a finals or even top 4 contender ala collingwood with jolly.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

Here are my views.

1. As a rule, in the first couple of rounds (where I'm assuming the OP wants to nab a ruckman), you draft the best quality player in the draft available, regardless of need or position. Deviate away from this and you make mistakes. After the first couple of rounds, you're far from guaranteed a long-term giant.

2. Gus is young. Last night he won the ruck battle, albeit beating second-rate opposition. He continues to come on in leaps and bounds, and while he has deficiencies, Tiges fans should be very happy with him at the moment. As has been said, premier ruckmen at the same age were giving similar output. I remember people asking 'When is Sandilands going to do anything around the ground?'

3. There is absolutely no rush to get a ruckman. We are a young side and building from scratch. I think if we are struggling in ruck terms when we're a top 4 side, move heaven and earth to get one then. See: Collingwood winning a flag after getting Jolly after losing a Prelim in 2009.

4. The draft is a fickle producer of quality ruckmen. Look at three of the best in the league at the moment...Jolly, Sandilands, Cox. All of them were rookies. I would suggest we need to keep faith in Gus as another rookie ruckman, continue to rookie list bigmen if he struggles, or simply wait it out and grab one when we're a contender.

 

[Turmoil]

No.1 Should be a small lock down defender. We get smashed every week by small forwards.

A small crumbing forward that knows his role and does it for the whole game and not go wandering or try to out mark our key forwards.

Conca may fill one of these roles at some point, not sure which yet though...

Rucks you need to get in their prime anyways so we still have a season or two before we should be looking at poaching one from another side like the pies did with jolly.

 

[tugga]

Here are my views.

1. As a rule, in the first couple of rounds (where I'm assuming the OP wants to nab a ruckman), you draft the best quality player in the draft available, regardless of need or position. Deviate away from this and you make mistakes.

2. Gus is young. Last night he won the ruck battle, albeit beating second-rate opposition. He continues to come on in leaps and bounds, and while he has deficiencies, Tiges fans should be very happy with him at the moment. As has been said, premier ruckmen at the same age were giving similar output. I remember people asking 'When is Sandilands going to do anything around the ground?'

3. There is absolutely no rush to get a ruckman. We are a young side and building from scratch. I think if we are struggling in ruck terms when we're a top 4 side, move heaven and earth to get one then. See: Collingwood winning a flag after getting Jolly after losing a Prelim in 2009.

4. The draft is a fickle producer of quality ruckmen. Look at three of the best in the league at the moment...Jolly, Sandilands, Cox. All of them were rookies. I would suggest we need to keep faith in Gus as another rookie ruckman, continue to rookie list bigmen if he struggles, or simply wait it out and grab one when we're a contender.

No, that's not what I said at all.
I said we should actively use the trade period to snare a ruckman of callibre. If that means giving up something of quality, then so be it. We have a priority 2nd round pick that we have yet to use after offloading Tambling. I don't have a problem with using that and a player to get a ruckman. Gus is so far off the pace of the premier ruckman in the comp, that it's embarrassing. His improvment has been slow and negligible in my opinion.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

No, that's not what I said at all.
I said we should actively use the trade period to snare a ruckman of callibre. If that means giving up something of quality, then so be it. We have a priority 2nd round pick that we have yet to use after offloading Tambling. I don't have a problem with using that and a player to get a ruckman. Gus is so far off the pace of the premier ruckman in the comp, that it's embarrassing. His improvment has been slow and negligible in my opinion.

Fair enough, that would be my bad. I was also making general points about the draft concerning ruckmen.

We are in a good position with that pick however, and I personally am so far from thinking we should jump ship with Gus (for the reasons posted above), to get a ruckman ASAP as we're in year 2 of probably around a 5-7 year premiership challenge.

Patience is required here. Gus has strengths and can get better a-la other rookie ruckmen of the same age.

 

[Del65166]

What is with this thread? He was dominant last night, probably his best game for us! Poor opposition, but seriously he played 80-90% game time without a solid break, won alot of hitouts and was the impetus for our 3rd quarter revival when he started to pin point hitouts right down the throats of our midfielders.

There are alot of other problems that need addressing before our ruck department! Key backs are our #1 issue at the moment- but nobody could have predicted the absence of McGuane and Rance- followed by small, lockdown defenders (only genuine one on our entire list is farmer and he is injured). We could also do with a fast, strong small/mid sized forward who can apply defensive pressure and nab a few goals.

gotta agree i thought gus' game was good
re: the small fwd - kingy is doing it to some degree
re: the med forward - we have no one

 

[NQTIGER]

Happy Birthday Gus.

Nice way to celebrate it for the pro Gus haters to call for his sacking.

24 and starting to dominate in the air, all that’s needed is for Lade to hone his placement and we have a ripper.

Those who want him dropped are in for a long, long year of sooking and whinging. Apart from a rest somewhere in the year, he is here to stay. Gus is good.


Footnote, Ranked 17th in the league for ave tackles per game. The only ruckman close is Mumford at 28th, shows he is also capable of adding good pressure.

It would be nice if our BIG man could take a mark around the ground and maybe even keep his feet.

 

[juss]

IMO we are 5 players, or positions if you like, away from a finals side.

CHB: We need a big bodied mobile CHB.
Candidates: Astbury, Rance, Grimes, Post, Gourdis

FB: Again big bodied, capable of shutting down and playing the stopper role.
Rance, Grimes, Gourdis

BP: Call it small defender. For a while now guys like Milne/Betts/Garlett/Didak have caused us trouble.
Candidates: Batchelor, Conca, Farmer

CHF: Lead up forward who can take the big mark on the wing and kick long to Jack, also contribute with 40+ goals.
Candidates: Griffiths, Vickery

R: Good around the ground and competitive in the ruck, being able to drift forward and kick a goal helps.
Candidates: Derickx, Browne, Graham


These are our main needs imo, and the possible guys on our list who could fill these roles to a high level. Now, some of these needs may come from the guys mentioned above, if not, we need to draft/trade for them. To me the least convincing of those above is the key defenders and forwards. For that reason I'd certainly be hoping that with our first pick the best available is a 195cm KPP. Strongly believe we have to draft tall this year.

 

[tugga]

It would be nice if our BIG man could take a mark around the ground and maybe even keep his feet.

Yup
Has the physical presence of a butterfly.

 

[jko'neal]

I agree a young established ruck that can do damage around the ground would be great. Hit out's now days mean sweet **** all IMO, we were what the 2nd or 3rd best clearance team last year! Sandilands is the only guy that set's up games in the ruck due to his size. The rest rack up stats and look good but don't influence a game that much just rucking.

 

[bigstyletiger]

It's too early for this kind of talk. We are not even contending for finals little own top 4. Worry about trading for an experienced ruckman then. By that stage one of Graham, Derickx, Vickery or Browne may have come on or if not a big man from another club will be more likely to want to cross over to us.

Carry on with the scapegoating by all means though.

 

[Cathal Brugha]

Tried telling people in a thread last year we need a quality ruckman and got told to piss off.

Piss off!

 

[happy_punter]

It would be nice if our BIG man could take a mark around the ground and maybe even keep his feet.

He usually does more often than not! He's the best ruck we have until derrikx shows what he is capable of! Gus really doesn't need to be replaced.

 

[folester41]

IMO we are 5 players, or positions if you like, away from a finals side.

CHB: We need a big bodied mobile CHB.
Candidates: Astbury, Rance, Grimes, Post, Gourdis

FB: Again big bodied, capable of shutting down and playing the stopper role.
Rance, Grimes, Gourdis

BP: Call it small defender. For a while now guys like Milne/Betts/Garlett/Didak have caused us trouble.
Candidates: Batchelor, Conca, Farmer

CHF: Lead up forward who can take the big mark on the wing and kick long to Jack, also contribute with 40+ goals.
Candidates: Griffiths, Vickery

R: Good around the ground and competitive in the ruck, being able to drift forward and kick a goal helps.
Candidates: Derickx, Browne, Graham


These are our main needs imo, and the possible guys on our list who could fill these roles to a high level. Now, some of these needs may come from the guys mentioned above, if not, we need to draft/trade for them. To me the least convincing of those above is the key defenders and forwards. For that reason I'd certainly be hoping that with our first pick the best available is a 195cm KPP. Strongly believe we have to draft tall this year.

agree, although you can add a small/med foward to that.

in order of most pressing need is fb, chb, chf, ruck, small defender, small foward iMO.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

With so much decision about Graham not being a number 1 ruckman, could he be a 2nd ruckman who plays forward, either edging Vickery out or allowing him to play elsehwere ?
I can't remember of an occasion, but has Vickery ever been tried in defence at AFL level ?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Which actual mature ruckman who is at the right age - and not locked away for years right where they want to be - would people who support this idea be looking at?

All the blokes on any plausible list I can come up with are no better or actually worse rucks than Graham, many are worse than Browne. The best list in the country with amazing depth everywhere is playing Wood as their 2nd ruckman and if they need to take him into a GF they will and they'll still win.

People are quick to say disregard our form because we've been playing finals bound sides, Graham's held his own over this period and certainly hasn't been a disadvantage to our midfield. As we saw Collingwood do to us on Friday night, a good midfield just roves to the dominant ruckman no matter who it is.

Those saying he's weak at the contest, what a load of shit, he's the best tackling ruckman in the league, he's dominating the 2nd half of games generally despite massive time on the ball, he smashes bodies all game and he's monstered every one of his opponents by the end of each game we've played. Let's not mistake the odd bout of clumsiness with a lack of strength, Graham is very strong and will be a scary opponent by the time he's 26-27.

None of his opponents have outmarked him so far this year, how can people suggest he's weak in the air?

He's trying to establish himself in arguably the hardest position on the ground, he gets thrust into 100+ 1-on-1 contested situations a game, of course he's going to look inadequate in some of them. Some of you seem to forget 90 instances where he competed well or broke even at worst, then blow 12 or less instances where he should have done better out of all proportion and reduce his game to being overwhelmingly about those instances.

If all our other blokes were winning or breaking even in contests at those kind of % rates then we'd be a threat for the flag.

I was not terribly happy that we seemingly made no play for Mumford, I was really quite disgusted that we didn't rookie Bellchambers, but IMO, our ruck stocks are pretty good despite these oversights.

Graham's doing a massive job for us, his game time has increased significantly yet he's playing games right out, his ruck output and defensive work is up significantly on last year, and unlike most of our side, he's been consistent over the four games. If he'd put in just one game where he got beaten like all our best players bar Jackson have, how many of you would want his career to end effective immediately?

Think about how fair that is.

 

[MightyTiger]

Rayzor Hamish Macintosh will be available for FA, and I have a feeling the club will be making a play for him.

 

[partycorolla]

We must move heaven and earth to get an established young ruckman in the next trade period.
We will not go anywhere until we have one.
Graham is a plodder and has stagnated.
Browne just isn't good enough.
Vickery is more a mobile forward, pinch hitting ruckman.
We haven't seen Derickx yet.
Watching last night at the ground, it was horrible seeing Gus lumber around. Imagine if Jolly had've played
Look at players like Jolly, Sandilands, Cox, Hille, Mumford and Jamar...all can dominate a game and when they do, their team usually wins. Make no mistake, the ruckman is not the dinosaur everyone thought they would be in this helter skelter modern game. In fact he is just as important as ever.

Tugga, while I usually agree with most that you say. A good midfield group will rove successfully to the dominate ruckman. So the hitout argument is redundant. The around the ground stuff though is not. Graham is a trier but as yet not a winner so to speak. I agree that we need more presence with our ruck division. Derickx......