Our No 1 priority

[partycorolla]

Which actual mature ruckman who is at the right age - and not locked away for years right where they want to be - would people who support this idea be looking at?

All the blokes on any plausible list I can come up with are no better or actually worse rucks than Graham, many are worse than Browne. The best list in the country with amazing depth everywhere is playing Wood as their 2nd ruckman and if they need to take him into a GF they will and they'll still win.

People are quick to say disregard our form because we've been playing finals bound sides, Graham's held his own over this period and certainly hasn't been a disadvantage to our midfield. As we saw Collingwood do to us on Friday night, a good midfield just roves to the dominant ruckman no matter who it is.


Those saying he's weak at the contest, what a load of shit, he's the best tackling ruckman in the league, he's dominating the 2nd half of games generally despite massive time on the ball, he smashes bodies all game and he's monstered every one of his opponents by the end of each game we've played. Let's not mistake the odd bout of clumsiness with a lack of strength, Graham is very strong and will be a scary opponent by the time he's 26-27.

None of his opponents have outmarked him so far this year, how can people suggest he's weak in the air?

He's trying to establish himself in arguably the hardest position on the ground, he gets thrust into 100+ 1-on-1 contested situations a game, of course he's going to look inadequate in some of them. Some of you seem to forget 90 instances where he competed well or broke even at worst, then blow 12 or less instances where he should have done better out of all proportion and reduce his game to being overwhelmingly about those instances.

If all our other blokes were winning or breaking even in contests at those kind of % rates then we'd be a threat for the flag.

I was not terribly happy that we seemingly made no play for Mumford, I was really quite disgusted that we didn't rookie Bellchambers, but IMO, our ruck stocks are pretty good despite these oversights.

Graham's doing a massive job for us, his game time has increased significantly yet he's playing games right out, his ruck output and defensive work is up significantly on last year, and unlike most of our side, he's been consistent over the four games. If he'd put in just one game where he got beaten like all our best players bar Jackson have, how many of you would want his career to end effective immediately?

Holy crap rayzor, i just posted and then read this post and pretty much said what you did word for word. I know we have had our disagreements but I have to jump on board what you are saying here. Spot on... very young, giving a contest in the ruck and up forward.... what more can we ask than an honest contest.....

 

[TOOs_Finest]

I'd be keeping my eye on Lachlan Keefe at Collingwood and Tom Bellchambers at Essendon. Both are good quality young players who will be starved of opportunity at their respective clubs at the business end of the season.

 

[TJTIGER]

Which actual mature ruckman who is at the right age - and not locked away for years right where they want to be - would people who support this idea be looking at?

All the blokes on any plausible list I can come up with are no better or actually worse rucks than Graham, many are worse than Browne. The best list in the country with amazing depth everywhere is playing Wood as their 2nd ruckman and if they need to take him into a GF they will and they'll still win.

People are quick to say disregard our form because we've been playing finals bound sides, Graham's held his own over this period and certainly hasn't been a disadvantage to our midfield. As we saw Collingwood do to us on Friday night, a good midfield just roves to the dominant ruckman no matter who it is.

Those saying he's weak at the contest, what a load of shit, he's the best tackling ruckman in the league, he's dominating the 2nd half of games generally despite massive time on the ball, he smashes bodies all game and he's monstered every one of his opponents by the end of each game we've played. Let's not mistake the odd bout of clumsiness with a lack of strength, Graham is very strong and will be a scary opponent by the time he's 26-27.

None of his opponents have outmarked him so far this year, how can people suggest he's weak in the air?

He's trying to establish himself in arguably the hardest position on the ground, he gets thrust into 100+ 1-on-1 contested situations a game, of course he's going to look inadequate in some of them. Some of you seem to forget 90 instances where he competed well or broke even at worst, then blow 12 or less instances where he should have done better out of all proportion and reduce his game to being overwhelmingly about those instances.

If all our other blokes were winning or breaking even in contests at those kind of % rates then we'd be a threat for the flag.

I was not terribly happy that we seemingly made no play for Mumford, I was really quite disgusted that we didn't rookie Bellchambers, but IMO, our ruck stocks are pretty good despite these oversights.

Graham's doing a massive job for us, his game time has increased significantly yet he's playing games right out, his ruck output and defensive work is up significantly on last year, and unlike most of our side, he's been consistent over the four games. If he'd put in just one game where he got beaten like all our best players bar Jackson have, how many of you would want his career to end effective immediately?

Think about how fair that is.

Good call Rayzorwire, I completely agree!!

 

[Haggard H]

WTF? Why should Gus have dominated against Wood?
They're both the same age.
Wood is taller.
Wood is heavier.
Wood has been in AFL system 2-3 years longer than Graham.
Wood has played more games than Graham.
Wood was taken as a first round pick - twice.
If we waste a pick on another ruckman next year it would be criminal. Vickery is going to be the No 1 ruck for a long time, Gus and/or Derrickx will be very handy No 2's (perfect set up for someone there. Rusty?).

 

[ize_]

WTF? Why should Gus have dominated against Wood?
They're both the same age.
Wood is taller.
Wood is heavier.
Wood has been in AFL system 2-3 years longer than Graham.
Wood has played more games than Graham.
Wood was taken as a first round pick - twice.
If we waste a pick on another ruckman next year it would be criminal. Vickery is going to be the No 1 ruck for a long time, Gus and/or Derrickx will be very handy No 2's (perfect set up for someone there. Rusty?).

Thankyou. Gus is coming along swimmingly. He sure does have some deficiencies, but he's a damn sight better than I ever thought he'd be 2 years ago. Keen to see Derickx soon.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Rayzor Hamish Macintosh will be available for FA, and I have a feeling the club will be making a play for him.

Do we want a 26yo with a considerable injury history who has struggled to average more than 20 hitouts a game over the course of a season? Whose game style is more suited to having a solid ruck partner rather than carrying the ruck by himself for season after season?

Put the reputations aside and take a glance through HMac's record, see the games and oppositions he's failed against. He's only topped 30 hitouts on eight occasions in his career and you'll see it's almost always against sides without a ruckman.

Look at his recent games against the genuinely top AFL rucks:

Hitouts last 3yrs V Freo:

6, 11, 16, 13

Hitouts last 3yrs V WCE:

18, 15, 15, 11

It's also very clear that the more time he's spent in the ruck, the more his possession hauls and around the ground usefulness has dropped off, to the point where he's been averaging less than 15 possessions a game over the last two years, not like the 20+ of his earlier years. It'd be a mistake to merge the sprightly, everywhere HMac of his early 20's with the tiring, much more full-time ruckman of recent years into one player, he hasn't been both at once.

He had 36 tackles for the season last year, Graham's had 24 in four games. He averaged 20 hitouts a game last year, Graham's averaging over 27. He averaged 0.7 goals a game last year, Graham's averaging 0.5. When we played North last year Graham had more hitouts than McIntosh or Goldstein playing his 27th game.

We have to be really careful when FA comes in that we don't bring in players who are unreliable (socially or injury-wise) and that we don't pay over the $ for something we have already got 90% of (and improving) amongst our own stocks. Hmac fits both categories IMO. He's had a couple of pretty good years, but it remains to be seen whether his body is going to go the distance, whether his possessions and around the ground usefulness will continue to plummet the more time he spends in the ruck, and whether he'll ever be able to compete on even terms with the best rucks in the comp - personally, I don't come up with a favourable outlook towards him over the blokes we have when the $ he'll want will be taken away from our ability to keep our 'star' players.

IMO, the last thing we need to do at this point is fill our list with any players who are overpaid for the output they're realistically going to be giving us, that kind of list management has been crippling this club for decades.

I'd be keeping my eye on Lachlan Keefe at Collingwood and Tom Bellchambers at Essendon. Both are good quality young players who will be starved of opportunity at their respective clubs at the business end of the season.

The boat's sailed on these two IMO DD. I think Keefe just became Collingwood's 2nd ruckman on Friday night, Mick loves him and Hird has said he's very comfortable to play their three big blokes all at once. Hille and Ryder are very effective forward and a dead set nightmare with Hurley as well, Hird would be loving Bellchambers being able to make that happen. Luckily for them, the Knights years have given them the running power to be able to play that setup.

I'm still cranky about Bellchambers, we missed him, Cale Hooker and Stefan Martin, ending up with Putt and Gourdis instead.

Go Dave.

 

[1980]

I like the way Graham is developing. Unfortunately, I agree with Razorblade

 

[CoggaRules]

At the end of the day there is plenty of time for us to see what unfolds with our current group of rookie ruckmen, while we address more important things in regards to this list and structure. Once we are at the point where we see that what we need is a ruckman, we can then go out and get ourselves a Jolly.
Its quite clear that the Pies were in the same predicament, prior to their ascendency to the top. They were pottering around with the likes of Josh Fraser etc and then went out and got the key they needed. The rest is history.
We have 4 young blokes who are vying for probably 2 spots on the future list. At this stage they all have some kind of claim to a future spot, barring Derrickx who is at the beginning of his career. If one of the 4 comes out and develops into a ruckman who can compliment our mids, then we are in the black, if not then we go get the one we want before making a push deep into the 8.
Until then the focus should be purely on getting the rest of the structure right.

 

[Infamy]

No way is a ruckman our #1 priority, they are the final piece of the puzzle.
For his age and experience Gus is doing a massive job. Cam Wood is Collingwood's 3rd ruck option yet as has been pointed out he is taller, heavier, more experienced, and a 1st round draft pick. Graham smashed him to the point that the Collingwood midfielders were roving directly to his taps. That's not Graham's fault, that's our midfielders' fault for letting them do it.

Two words to sum up the ruck position... FREE AGENCY!!!

Given the 8 year limit before you become a restricted free agent, that will mean any 25 year old ruckman are pretty much ready to go and will still have a good 7+ years left in the game, all we need to do is get out the cheque book.

No way in hell should we be trading any 1st and/or 2nd round draft picks for a top ruckman just yet. Let our current ones develop until they are 25-27 years old and then see if we still need one go and buy one.

 

[Morro]

This maybe is not our 1st priority but I didnt want to make another thread.

The sooner Lids and newman can be played forward of centre the sooner we start to challenge. These guys must be replaced with equally capable rebounders.

Against the Pies we looked unstoppable when these guys were lacing out our forwards with laser passes.

Surely some one else picked up on this????

Newman & Lids on the wings or HFF = instant massive improvement!

 

[Spluff]

I'd be keeping my eye on Lachlan Keefe at Collingwood and Tom Bellchambers at Essendon. Both are good quality young players who will be starved of opportunity at their respective clubs at the business end of the season.

You mean the same players that have been comprehensively beaten by our 2nd and 3rd choice rucks in the VFL? You want them to play No. 1 ruck for us?

 

[The Cotch]

Agree.

Some players I'm sure we'll be looking at trading for during the off-season would be....

Mitch Clark: Best position is in the ruck, can push forward as well. The development of Leuenberger has pushed him aside a little. He'll most likely go back home to WA, but we should seriously consider. Perfect age for our side.

Tom Bellchambers: Really promising tap ruckman. Bombers might give him up for the right price given they have Hille/Ryder.

Zac Clarke: I really like the look of this kid. Won't really get a look in with Sandilands, but was really impressive when he played a few games a couple of years ago. He's extremely mobile, 21 years old and 203cm. Also from Victoria.

Tom Nicholls: From the Gold Coast. He will be a super ruckman. Only 19, but showed great signs in the NAB Cup/Challenge matches. Super athletic and 201cms. From Victoria.

Hamish McIntosh/Todd Goldstein: I get the feeling one of these guys will leave at the end of the year, most likely McIntosh. Hamish will be 27 in September, so probably not in our range but should still have 4-5 good years in him, and is a dominant ruckman.

 

[Catsace]

I know of a Premiership ruckman who is 25, had seven seasons in the system and is smack bang in the games demographic other posters have mentioned....

Would you like Mark Blake?

But seriously ruckmen require so much investment in time and development, i almost think they should be almost only be drafted say at age 20 or 21. Like Vickery, he's been around for a while....this is his 4th season i believe but only now is he really starting to show some consistency and real promise. He'll be a good one, but the reward of say top 10 output for a young ruckman is so far off at age 18. Even Nic Natanui is not exactly taking the world by storm this season, and his promise was just about unparalled at the time of his drafting.

Whereas smaller players like even Martin, Selwood, Rich etc the output and payoff as such is almost immediate.

Thus, looking around for a mature bodied ruckman makes sense. Or maybe rookie some bigger bodies. It sort of cuts the output of a side's list by 2.6% is one spot on the 38 is a young 18 y/o ruckman, as generally he is ages away from playing meaningful footy. This is where Blake could be at least something, he is big bodied, 200 cm tall and provides generally very good contesting at stoppages. He doesn't do much else around the ground, but if your side can continue to build strong bodied midfielders like Cotchin/Martin and co such a player can be handy.

Look at others drafted a few years ago, Ayce Cordy has yet to play a senior game, it's his third season, Dawson Simpson at Geelong has been on our list for 4 years. Trent West was drafted in 2005! And he's still 'developing'. Look at those sort of blokes, i just reckon it is better for your develoment to pick someone who has built his body for 4-5 years in the system at another club rather than using high picks to get someone who at the very best might take until his 3rd season to play consistent footy.

Use your early picks building the midfield engine, Collingwood's 'Runball/fitness ball' style footy where gut running and tackling is almost second nature for their players seem to be where the game is going. Build the midfield engine with your best picks.....that's your best chance of building a successful club.

 

[Infamy]

I know of a Premiership ruckman who is 25, had seven seasons in the system and is smack bang in the games demographic other posters have mentioned....

Would you like Mark Blake?

But seriously ruckmen require so much investment in time and development, i almost think they should be almost only be drafted say at age 20 or 21. Like Vickery, he's been around for a while....this is his 4th season i believe but only now is he really starting to show some consistency and real promise. He'll be a good one, but the reward of say top 10 output for a young ruckman is so far off at age 18. Even Nic Natanui is not exactly taking the world by storm this season, and his promise was just about unparalled at the time of his drafting.

Whereas smaller players like even Martin, Selwood, Rich etc the output and payoff as such is almost immediate.

Thus, looking around for a mature bodied ruckman makes sense. Or maybe rookie some bigger bodies. It sort of cuts the output of a side's list by 2.6% is one spot on the 38 is a young 18 y/o ruckman, as generally he is ages away from playing meaningful footy. This is where Blake could be at least something, he is big bodied, 200 cm tall and provides generally very good contesting at stoppages. He doesn't do much else around the ground, but if your side can continue to build strong bodied midfielders like Cotchin/Martin and co such a player can be handy.

Look at others drafted a few years ago, Ayce Cordy has yet to play a senior game, it's his third season, Dawson Simpson at Geelong has been on our list for 4 years. Trent West was drafted in 2005! And he's still 'developing'. Look at those sort of blokes, i just reckon it is better for your develoment to pick someone who has built his body for 4-5 years in the system at another club rather than using high picks to get someone who at the very best might take until his 3rd season to play consistent footy.

Use your early picks building the midfield engine, Collingwood's 'Runball/fitness ball' style footy where gut running and tackling is almost second nature for their players seem to be where the game is going. Build the midfield engine with your best picks.....that's your best chance of building a successful club.

Pass on Blake... to think you could have kept Mumford over him
Vickery was drafted in 2008 so only his 3rd season now, he's doing really well for a kid his age

Spot on with everything else

 

[ize_]

While I don't think a ruckman is 100% required, if Zac Clarke shows any signs of wanting to come out we should be all over that. Gun player, but behind Sandilands and probably Jon Griffin now too. Mitch Clark would be a huge steal but we won't be getting him. Go the "Z." I didn't realise he was Victorian.

 

[MightyTiger]

Hamish Mactinosh is the only Mature Ruck I think would be worth trading for, if we cant find a decent mature ruck then keep the ones we have and let them develop.

 

[Mr Magic]

Only one player to chase in the next few years.

He plays for Freo and if he is not in you DT and SC teams go back to school.

Anyone else is a weight on our premiership aspirations apart from future draftees and some excess GC and GWS talent!!!

 

[Roachy8]

Must say I'm a little surprised at some of the general lack of faith in big Gus.

Sure, he will never win a Brownlow but I reckon he is progressing fine and when we are ready to enter the 8 in a couple of years he will certainly be further improved.

In response to some queries earlier in this thread on his physical presence...
- Leading tackler of any so called #1 ruckmen this year
- Last round, took more marks than any other #1 ruckman including Cox, Sandilands & Jamar.

Plenty of other areas to look for improvement at The Tigers including the ruck division but I can not agree that it is our number 1 priority.

 

[ize_]

MM you're saying Hurley, Selwood, Swallow, Scully and Rioli would be nothing but weights on our premiership aspirations?

Sandilands is going to be 29 at the end of the season and whilst he very very good, he's not going to get a whole heap better than he is now.

 

[Spluff]

MM is clearly referring to Fyfe.

Richmond supporter, too.

I'll take a Zac Clarke to go - a Zac Smith wouldn't go astray either.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

Was watching a few memorable quarters of footy from last year over the past few days, and came out with a relevant observation.

Now this isn't very conclusive, nor is it backed up by stats. But in all the quarters I watched, Gus had numbers of hit outs to advantage, took contested marks, and predictably, was useful once the ball hit the deck, in tackling, finding a handball target, etc.

On top of all of the other reasons I've given in this thread on page 3, and the fact that his season nor overall quality shouldn't be judged on the first few games, he needs support and patience, because theres no reason he can't take the next step.

I really dislike this thread and the idea it suggests at this point in time.

 

[LuKe2428]

Go out and get Micheal Hurley Richmond!

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

Does anyone know of Aaron Sandiland's younger taller brother who goes for the tigers, has been training as a sprinter and winning plenty of ruck work in an alternate universe?

no?

happy to stick with for a while unless a definite upgrade falls into our laps through free agency or some such.
Browne looks the slowest so might be in the most trouble, but hey, wouldnt hate him to rest in the GS while Jack has a go high half and other ruck has a crack.
just keen to see Derricx / Browne / Vickers get games too, not unhappy with how Gus is coming along.

I think thats our no 1 priority - get the most out of the squad we have right now, get them playing at AFL level or in touch with it, without too much chopping and changing every week - just gradually keep the rotations up-and I think thats coming along well. Would like to see us have a red hot crack at a few beatables though -north next week for instance - dont even think we need to can the kids, give Conca L Thomas to mind as a follow up to Milne (hopefully he will miss everything anyway, like to see an established defender back...sheesh Im including Rance in this category..but he is probably a good prospect for Petrie...cmon Sunday! sorry drifted 90deg off topic there, from long term to next week, jeebers, Im going to go insane when we have our BYE, I hope Ainslie are at home that week

 

[Bazzar]

Must say I'm a little surprised at some of the general lack of faith in big Gus.

In response to some queries earlier in this thread on his physical presence...
- Leading tackler of any so called #1 ruckmen this year
- Last round, took more marks than any other #1 ruckman including Cox, Sandilands & Jamar.

Add to that, 5th in the comp for hitouts to advantage.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

Add to that, 5th in the comp for hitouts to advantage.

I did not know that, and had assumed from all the bitching and moaning in this thread that he was well off the pace.

Nicely done Bazzar