Strategy Our Offensive System

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doggies ftw said:
I don’t think Naughty, Bruce and Cox works at all. All contested marking types who fly at everything. Naughty and Cox could work though. Naughty draws so much attention I think Cox really could get quite a few mismatches and really good looks alongside Naughty.
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Cox and Naughton both get a heap of attention. And I think Naughton is a better CHF than he is FF. Thats ideal for Cox to play as the deep forward.

Bruce and Cox imo just wouldn't work. At all.
 
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The consensus on here has seemed to be that are lacking a small, speedy, crumbing forward who operates mostly at ground level and prioritises pressure.

An interesting interpretation of our moves this off-season could be that we have gone down a different route entirely, prioritising mid-sizers who do their best work aerially.

From keeping Roarke, bringing in JUH (albeit more a no-brainer than a choice), Bedendo, and Hannan, and opting to drop Cavarra to the rookie list, there does seem to be a consistent message across our off-season. I feel that looking back at the season that was provides more evidence for this, from favouring someone like Roarke at the end of the season to trialing Crozier forward when we were stacked with defenders (some of whom had more convincing previous form in the forward line than Croz). It's possible that this is a coincidence, but it does feel like everything goes together quite nicely.

Aside from "we want to mark the ball real good," does this tell us anything about how we want our forward line or offensive system to change moving forward?
 

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Dannnnnnnnnn said:
The consensus on here has seemed to be that are lacking a small, speedy, crumbing forward who operates mostly at ground level and prioritises pressure.

An interesting interpretation of our moves this off-season could be that we have gone down a different route entirely, prioritising mid-sizers who do their best work aerially.

From keeping Roarke, bringing in JUH (albeit more a no-brainer than a choice), Bedendo, and Hannan, and opting to drop Cavarra to the rookie list, there does seem to be a consistent message across our off-season. I feel that looking back at the season that was provides more evidence for this, from favouring someone like Roarke at the end of the season to trialing Crozier forward when we were stacked with defenders (some of whom had more convincing previous form in the forward line than Croz). It's possible that this is a coincidence, but it does feel like everything goes together quite nicely.

Aside from "we want to mark the ball real good," does this tell us anything about how we want our forward line or offensive system to change moving forward?
Click to expand...

Maybe it says we want a much bigger spread of goal kickers than most sides. Most of the really good teams have a power forward or two that can be expected to kick 2-4 a game semi-regularly. Naughton will get there but it could be another 2 or 3 years before he’s at his peak, and you’d expect JUH to follow a similar pattern. We tried adding Bruce to the mix to give us a developed forward but he seems to be more in the mid tier bracket (at best).

These smaller types kick goals less regularly but are often more difficult than the standard lead-and-mark. We are still lacking a specialist in that role, but perhaps we think we can get such a volume of inside 50s that we can afford to miss out on the more opportunistic shots. If we have 5 solid marking targets and win the inside 50s we should mark the ball often enough. Or at least that might be the logic.
 
I quite like a mobile, strong marking forward line but we need to play accordingly. Don’t push our defenders up to half forward to lock the ball in, we don’t have great tackling players or players who kick goals out of congestion, only way we score from this is relying on Naughty to take a pack mark. And our defence is extremely vulnerable to scores over the back.

Instead focus on quick movement from half back into a spacey forward line where those mediums will excel one on one. When the ball hits the deck let them bring it out and focus on pressuring the oppo into a turn over in the middle/half back (which plays into our strong athletic medium defenders strengths) drawing the oppo players out of our forward line leaving space where we can use on the rebound. Stop pushing the defence so high!!!! Repeat stoppages inside 50 do not help us, all our scoring comes from quick ball movement from defence
 
The biggest "role" that is hurting us at minute is the ruck. Having next to no confidence in winning the clearance or ruck contest. We then send an extra forward up to have the outnumber.
This then has a big impact on forward structure. Defensively it gives the opposition a lot of options, the spare defender can take off and pressure the ball carrier knowing that he won't get burnt by an uncontested mark. Or alternatively holds his ground and can go 3rd man up to kill the contest and assist with mopping up. Lastly can drop into the hole to take an intercept mark.
How many times did we see exactly that this year. It also impacts forwards confidence as they know if they don't mark it is going to slingshot back out again. We dont have enough quick players to be a man down in the forward line.
I see how it breaks down the forwards as there is never an easy ball double teamed at nearly all times to take a mark or chasing backsides. As the opposition defender flips a handball to the loose defender to stream out of the backline.
Hopefully the addition of Stef Martin can allow us to play a more man to man forward structure and I feel that the connection and familiarity will improve and those selected have a clearer idea and much better ability to hit the KPI's
Here's hoping 😁😁
 
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Bump.

How are people seeing this unfolding thus far this year?

What I wanted to see this year was a better indication of how we wanted our offence to work, and early on I think we're getting a much clearer picture. Our transition game is much the same as it always has been, with more aggressive corridor use by foot (supported by much better team and back six defence) balancing out our focus on support from behind with extremely high defenders. Up forward we're playing a game much more predicated on leading into space (Josh Bruce likes this), and being accurate by foot. The backup plan is the goal square, where Bruce and Naughton combine to bring the ball to ground. What's been great to see is that our three talls are really complementing each other. They're blocking for each other, pulling out of marking contests that the other is in a better position for, etc. It's working much better.

With our smaller players, we don't crumb so much as focus on hitting the ball at speed from behind the contest, keeping this "support from behind" mantra going. With Vandermeer, McNeil and to some extent Hunter we have a fleet of aggressive pressure players that seek to close down the ball handler with gusto (this is a change for us, I think - our medium defenders don't push up to protect against kicks ~60ish metres out quite as much anymore, necessitating a greater emphasis on pressure forwards but resulting in a better defence). We don't seem to be using a forward up at the contest quite as consistently anymore, either? Anybody have anything to add/change?

My remaining concern is that we still aren't fantastic at scoring from congestion. Dunkley and Liberatore are the two I have most faith in kicking a goal from a contest, and that's a problem - the better sides will close down that uncontested ball, making hitting leading targets more difficult and hurting our scoring potential.

One thing that was evident watching Brisbane last week was how well drilled they are at ground level. Notice how many times the ball came off a 50/50 or funky bounce and went straight to a Lions player? This is by design, and we don't quite have that yet. That's where I see the growth coming, but I'm not sure where it needs to come from.

One for the VFL watchers - what does (or doesn't) Cavarra do that holds him back from selection? At a glance he offers more threatening nous around goal than we have, and good pressure, but there is clearly something keeping him out.
 
From Treloars SEN intetview yesterday it seems like the major focus has been that last kick into 50 this pre season. Seems to be working better for us than previous years.

English gives the opposition team headaches up forward because he's too big for the 3rd defender.

Feels like we're one small pressure forward away from having a great set up.
 
I feel the most natural crumber in the team is Scott strangely enough but he isn’t being given that chance yet.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
Bump.

How are people seeing this unfolding thus far this year?

What I wanted to see this year was a better indication of how we wanted our offence to work, and early on I think we're getting a much clearer picture. Our transition game is much the same as it always has been, with more aggressive corridor use by foot (supported by much better team and back six defence) balancing out our focus on support from behind with extremely high defenders. Up forward we're playing a game much more predicated on leading into space (Josh Bruce likes this), and being accurate by foot. The backup plan is the goal square, where Bruce and Naughton combine to bring the ball to ground. What's been great to see is that our three talls are really complementing each other. They're blocking for each other, pulling out of marking contests that the other is in a better position for, etc. It's working much better.

With our smaller players, we don't crumb so much as focus on hitting the ball at speed from behind the contest, keeping this "support from behind" mantra going. With Vandermeer, McNeil and to some extent Hunter we have a fleet of aggressive pressure players that seek to close down the ball handler with gusto (this is a change for us, I think - our medium defenders don't push up to protect against kicks ~60ish metres out quite as much anymore, necessitating a greater emphasis on pressure forwards but resulting in a better defence). We don't seem to be using a forward up at the contest quite as consistently anymore, either? Anybody have anything to add/change?

My remaining concern is that we still aren't fantastic at scoring from congestion. Dunkley and Liberatore are the two I have most faith in kicking a goal from a contest, and that's a problem - the better sides will close down that uncontested ball, making hitting leading targets more difficult and hurting our scoring potential.

One thing that was evident watching Brisbane last week was how well drilled they are at ground level. Notice how many times the ball came off a 50/50 or funky bounce and went straight to a Lions player? This is by design, and we don't quite have that yet. That's where I see the growth coming, but I'm not sure where it needs to come from.

One for the VFL watchers - what does (or doesn't) Cavarra do that holds him back from selection? At a glance he offers more threatening nous around goal than we have, and good pressure, but there is clearly something keeping him out.
Click to expand...

I've noticed that we have played with a lot less aggressive press as well. I think that's been a smart adaptation to the new rules as it is now much more important to defend the open space in front of the ball than pressuring the ball carrier when its so much easier to manoeuvre past the man on the mark and launch an aggressive forward kick. I think this also plays to the strengths of our defenders - Williams, Duryea, Daniel and Dale are great at reading the play and intercepting not defending 1v1 or running back to goal with their limited foot speed.

In terms of offensive systems - I think the new rules have suited what we already did really well which was quick ball movement transitioning out of defensive fifty and handball chains from stoppage, but the addition of Treloar has turned this strength into an almost ballistic capability. In terms of our midfield mix he has replaced B. Smith and is a lot more polished and efficient as an inside outside player and is a significantly more skilled in terms of quick hands and timing his runs forward of the stoppage.

I would like to see a better balance amongst our small forwards of both pressure and ball use quality. It won't be needed in every game but against more composed defences (West Coast, Sydney and Richmond come to mind) Naughton (bizarrely I think he is actually our best pressure forward) Vandermeer, Hunter and McNeil will not be as effective as their pressure will effect better defensive teams less. Conversely as these teams also pressure well when they don't have the ball very effectively - their lack of class/composure/experiance with it in hand will also be a problem.

Possibly playing Bont forward more - he actually reads it very well coming off a pack or marking contest and is good at snapping in a open fifty - in addition to Wallis coming back recalibrated with a new role in mind and one of Cavarra or Hannan could help solve this a bit. But like you I don't think there is a natural player that addresses our crumbing weakness. Bevo's calculation probably is that with our 3 tall forwards enough marks will stick and goals generated without one (let's hope he's right!)
 
Last edited:
BEaston said:
He played mostly forward on the weekend from what I saw. Not sure about Scott... haven't seen enough of him at VFL.
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His VFL form from 2019 was a marking medium forward role that pushed up the ground a lot
 

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Am feeling a bit for Schache. By all reports has turned up this preseason in great shape and attitude. The changes to the game would really suit him. If he gets a look in this year, can see him doing well but JUH likely to go past him in the pecking order pretty soon
 
bobs head soup said:
Am feeling a bit for Schache. By all reports has turned up this preseason in great shape and attitude. The changes to the game would really suit him. If he gets a look in this year, can see him doing well but JUH likely to go past him in the pecking order pretty soon
Click to expand...
He may only be one injury away from a start.

TBH I reckon he'd go well in the current set-up too, but he may not get the opportunity.
 
Dazb86 said:
From Treloars SEN intetview yesterday it seems like the major focus has been that last kick into 50 this pre season. Seems to be working better for us than previous years.

English gives the opposition team headaches up forward because he's too big for the 3rd defender.

Feels like we're one small pressure forward away from having a great set up.
Click to expand...
As noted by Treloar and was obvious, this was our primary issue. We either ignored hit ups or if we went long landed it on the forwards heads and not have the ball drop in space to give our forwards the opportunity to protect that space.

Agree we are not far away but there is still improvement in both the current group of forwards and conversion and structure with quick small forwards for both crumbing and also pressure on exit
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
Bump.

How are people seeing this unfolding thus far this year?

What I wanted to see this year was a better indication of how we wanted our offence to work, and early on I think we're getting a much clearer picture. Our transition game is much the same as it always has been, with more aggressive corridor use by foot (supported by much better team and back six defence) balancing out our focus on support from behind with extremely high defenders. Up forward we're playing a game much more predicated on leading into space (Josh Bruce likes this), and being accurate by foot. The backup plan is the goal square, where Bruce and Naughton combine to bring the ball to ground. What's been great to see is that our three talls are really complementing each other. They're blocking for each other, pulling out of marking contests that the other is in a better position for, etc. It's working much better.

With our smaller players, we don't crumb so much as focus on hitting the ball at speed from behind the contest, keeping this "support from behind" mantra going. With Vandermeer, McNeil and to some extent Hunter we have a fleet of aggressive pressure players that seek to close down the ball handler with gusto (this is a change for us, I think - our medium defenders don't push up to protect against kicks ~60ish metres out quite as much anymore, necessitating a greater emphasis on pressure forwards but resulting in a better defence). We don't seem to be using a forward up at the contest quite as consistently anymore, either? Anybody have anything to add/change?

My remaining concern is that we still aren't fantastic at scoring from congestion. Dunkley and Liberatore are the two I have most faith in kicking a goal from a contest, and that's a problem - the better sides will close down that uncontested ball, making hitting leading targets more difficult and hurting our scoring potential.

One thing that was evident watching Brisbane last week was how well drilled they are at ground level. Notice how many times the ball came off a 50/50 or funky bounce and went straight to a Lions player? This is by design, and we don't quite have that yet. That's where I see the growth coming, but I'm not sure where it needs to come from.

One for the VFL watchers - what does (or doesn't) Cavarra do that holds him back from selection? At a glance he offers more threatening nous around goal than we have, and good pressure, but there is clearly something keeping him out.
Click to expand...


I'd like to see more efficiency with our crumbers and smalls; we have a ton of marking power with our rotating talls and I'd say that most teams are scared of our three talls but our small forwards aren't taking enough advantage of their ability to bring it to the ground. This could be down to Vandermeer being down from last year on his efficiency and Wallis not firing and inexperience regarding the pace and pressure of AFL standard from McNeil and Scott.
 
I
Testekill said:
I'd like to see more efficiency with our crumbers and smalls; we have a ton of marking power with our rotating talls and I'd say that most teams are scared of our three talls but our small forwards aren't taking enough advantage of their ability to bring it to the ground. This could be down to Vandermeer being down from last year on his efficiency and Wallis not firing and inexperience regarding the pace and pressure of AFL standard from McNeil and Scott.
Click to expand...
I don’t really see either Vandermeer or Wallis as small forwards to be honest.
 
Testekill said:
I'd like to see more efficiency with our crumbers and smalls; we have a ton of marking power with our rotating talls and I'd say that most teams are scared of our three talls but our small forwards aren't taking enough advantage of their ability to bring it to the ground. This could be down to Vandermeer being down from last year on his efficiency and Wallis not firing and inexperience regarding the pace and pressure of AFL standard from McNeil and Scott.
Click to expand...

Would like to see Scott play a full game up forward without a defensive assignment (like he had last week against Rich). I think he showed some promising signs with positioning and understanding where the drop of the ball was going to be in the final quarter against North (obviously we were getting a tone of entries but still...)
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
Bump.

How are people seeing this unfolding thus far this year?

What I wanted to see this year was a better indication of how we wanted our offence to work, and early on I think we're getting a much clearer picture. Our transition game is much the same as it always has been, with more aggressive corridor use by foot (supported by much better team and back six defence) balancing out our focus on support from behind with extremely high defenders. Up forward we're playing a game much more predicated on leading into space (Josh Bruce likes this), and being accurate by foot. The backup plan is the goal square, where Bruce and Naughton combine to bring the ball to ground. What's been great to see is that our three talls are really complementing each other. They're blocking for each other, pulling out of marking contests that the other is in a better position for, etc. It's working much better.

With our smaller players, we don't crumb so much as focus on hitting the ball at speed from behind the contest, keeping this "support from behind" mantra going. With Vandermeer, McNeil and to some extent Hunter we have a fleet of aggressive pressure players that seek to close down the ball handler with gusto (this is a change for us, I think - our medium defenders don't push up to protect against kicks ~60ish metres out quite as much anymore, necessitating a greater emphasis on pressure forwards but resulting in a better defence). We don't seem to be using a forward up at the contest quite as consistently anymore, either? Anybody have anything to add/change?

My remaining concern is that we still aren't fantastic at scoring from congestion. Dunkley and Liberatore are the two I have most faith in kicking a goal from a contest, and that's a problem - the better sides will close down that uncontested ball, making hitting leading targets more difficult and hurting our scoring potential.

One thing that was evident watching Brisbane last week was how well drilled they are at ground level. Notice how many times the ball came off a 50/50 or funky bounce and went straight to a Lions player? This is by design, and we don't quite have that yet. That's where I see the growth coming, but I'm not sure where it needs to come from.

One for the VFL watchers - what does (or doesn't) Cavarra do that holds him back from selection? At a glance he offers more threatening nous around goal than we have, and good pressure, but there is clearly something keeping him out.
Click to expand...

I think a part not mentioned relates to kick ins.
There was a great article today related to those kicking in.

We had the 4th worst kick in - to inside fifty ratio of any aside.
Caleb Daniel is yet ot kick in for a score involvement at the other end.

So it go me thinking about our ball movement and how we are tranisitioning from kick ins.
It stood out so clearly in the Eagles game - where I was able to see how we setup the ground - is that we arent necessarily doing much to take advatange with the new kick in rule. Just the numbers we had in our own defensive fifty when we kick in was generally double the Hurn lead Eagles at their kicks ins.

Most sides are going to the mid part of the ground or to options at 35-40 out on the boundary. Ive notices we arent going long with kick ins like other sides.
With Naughton Bruce and English all good contested marks Im surprised we havent looked to try and exploit that and leave one of the three outnumbered on one side of the ground for that kick
 
JJHunter said:
I think the later but can’t be sure
Click to expand...
Latter doesn't make much sense. They are totally unrelated stats. And you'd want to have a low ratio because you want less points conceded and more i50s.

Just had a look we're actually second best in the league in kick ins (conceded behinds) to i50 ratio. We concede the 3rd least behinds in the league and have the 3rd most i50s.

Must be the former I'm guessing but wasn't clear based on how you wrote the statement. Do you have a link to the article you mention?
 
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