Our Small Forwards

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Thread starter #1
I remain perplexed about the large number of specialist small forwards on our list.

According to popular opinions ( all different ).
Milne should be dropped and retire.
Saad should be dropped.
TDL should be delisted
Milera should be delisted.

Then there is Schnieder , injured for much of this season and the last, will he play again?
Then there is Minchington, on the Rookie list.

I've looked at their attributes and abilities, and to be honest I wish I could pull them all apart and put back one good forward with the all the right pieces.

The bottom line:
Goals Average/game
Milne 1.8, down from 2.5 last year
Saad 1.2, down from 1.7 last year
Milera 1 , down from 1.3 last year
TDL 1, probably not as good as he has done at Sydney ( when he played full games ).

Comparison Betts 1.6 Motlop 1.7

Q1: Are all of these guys in a form slump, or is it a function of the midfield not working to their advantage?

Disposals/Contested Possessions/ Disposal % / Clangers / Tackles
Milne 11.2 / 4 / 59% / 2.8 / 1.2
Saad 8.4 / 4.5 / 64% / 2.2 / 3.1
Milera 11.8 / 3.5 / 58% / 2.7 / 1.8
TDL 7.9 / 3.5 / 68.7% / 1.7 / 3.2

Goal Accuracy
Milne: 49%
Saad: 48%
Milera: 38%
TDL : 57%


Wouldn't you know it? The two who get the ball the most are the ones who are most likely to cough it up.


Milne: age 33. knows how to present to get the ball, and can take a crumb when there are crumbs to be had.
I view Milne as a very hard worker, when the ball doesn't come in to him, he plays deep. The thing is, if the ball ends up in Milne's hands when he's not near the goals he's probably worse than Clinton Jones. He's been playing very deep.

Saad: (Age 23) is a very different player to Milne, but he also works very hard. His ability to lay tackles helps our forward line pressure. He'll make first efforts, second efforts and third efforts.
His goal accuracy is down this year. Still young enough ( and new enough at the game) for us to expect improvement.

Milera: ( Age 25) seems to be able to present well and get hold of the ball. ( most likely of the bunch to take a contested mark ), but it seems he is not able to finish. Probably ends up too deep, and like Milne, not particularly effective in the midfield. Misses 2 out of 3 shots for goal, not good if he's a specialist forward. Is it the pressure of playing AFL or is he another CJ?

TDL: ( Age 24) can be very good with the ball in his hands. Its getting it that's the problem. Doesn't seem to have the crumbing skills of Milne or Saad? , We have to rely on him getting the ball kicked to him. He does get a few tackles in, so its not like he's not providing forward pressure.

Schneider, was always good running deep. Made a pretty decent outside mid as well as a small forward, more so than any of the new guys.

Minchington. Is he playing? Injured?
From the Saints
A highly skilled half forward, Minchington was taken with pick 65 in the 2012 AFL Rookie Draft.
In 2012 Minchington injured his hip after nine games for Sandringham. Prior to this season-ending injury, the small forward and occasional midfielder showed great goal sense, speed and agility.

His ability to play in the midfield would be great but I'm not hearing much about him at all in VFL reports.

Other Options.
If we can get some new midfielders up and firing, ( Newnes, Wright, Geary in the guts , Ross ) , could it be an opportunity for an older player to retire gracefully in the forward line?
If we could play Leigh Montagna ( for example ) in the forward line, his goal kicking is no worse than any of the specialist smalls, but he's far more likely to win it if it goes to ground.
Could someone like Ledger be effective in the forward line?

My personal thoughts are:

All of them would be better players if our midfield was better.

I think we need to let Milera go. He's not effective as a small forward, and he's not physical enough to be a mid.

We might as well keep Milne if he wants to go round again, he simply kicks more goals than anyone else.

I'd like to experiment with a mid in the forward line, and I'd be really happy if we had enough midfield depth to allow Joey to play there until he's 34 or so.

I'm thinking that Schneider may retire. He's missed a lot of footy, and he's never been a player that comes back "fit".

With our list at the moment, I'd keep TDL, even if its just for depth. Maybe he can learn to get more of the ball, and then he'd be pretty useful.

I simply don't know where Minchington stands. At this stage I'd say his best chance is a third year on the rookie list.

What do others think?
 

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aussierulesrules

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#2
From what I saw Minch was playing some terrific footy (played very well in that televised game, especially once moved into the guts) but I think that might have been about the last game he has played and has been out injured since.

There are big wraps on him internally and he ticks a lot of boxes (ie. built like a tank, quick, skillful, smart, "x-factor", kicks goals, can play midfield), so I think it's just about him getting his body right and then he ought to be good to go. I have a feeling he could be as good going forward as most of the young ones on our list, as long as he gets his body in order and stays on the park. Seems to have a lot of talent and a good attitude/work rate, by all reports.

I see him as more of a Montagna type going forward, probably ending up in the midfield somewhere, after starting his career forward, as Jack Steven did. He may even be one of the reasons that Curren and Ledger are not being given a chance. We might see him as being able to play a similar role as those two, but with considerably better disposal, and so are biding our time until he is available and match-fit for upgrade and selection, rather than giving one or both of them a crack. They're all about the same size (pretty small), as are Joey and Steven, so we might think there is only room for one of those 3 in the same team going forward, with midfields getting progressively bigger these days.

I'm intrigued to see how TDL will go if he ever gets the main forward pocket gig, say if Milne retires this year. Given a full 4 quarters each week he might just be able to make a go of it, with Saad in the other pocket.

Milera seems to want out, so he'll probably go, and Schneids will prolly retire, unfortunately.

If Milne finishes off the season well, then, as you say, we may as well keep him, unless we think TDL will in fact be able to play that role well and will be better off getting the gig from R1 next year, rather than being behind Milne in the pecking order again.

I think Saad will still be a ripper still, but has been diagnosed with a severe case of the SYB.

If Milne, Schneids and Milera all happen to go, I wouldn't be at all opposed to us picking up Meryck Buchanan in the draft, as he was tipped to go around pick 30 two years ago, but chose cricket instead (which hasn't worked out), so could come very cheaply in comparison, now.

From what I've read about him he sounds like a bit of a clone of Schneids, with the pinpoint left foot kicking, footy smarts and ability to kick goals, but also collect plenty of possies when played midfield (reportedly averaged 25 or more possies per game in his last year of TAC Cup, which is very good for someone highly skilled and able to play forward, or midfield). Probably a bit similar to Ben Kennedy (now at Collingwood) last year, but maybe not as electrically quick, or with as thumping a kick, hence being tipped to go at 30, rather than 15 or so, as Kennedy was. Every other club is possibly dreaming of how they could nab him cheaply, though.
 

Defacto

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#3
OP is over reacting and calling for too many players to be delisted. milne and hyphen did enough to keep their spots. saad needs to be dropped.

in terms of delisting, still a while to go. although i do think schneider will retire, milne 50/50. hyphen, milera are in the gun delisting wise. saad will be given time. both milera and hyphen have time to turn it around though
 

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I actually thought that our Small forwards were quite good on Sunday TDL played well and he can play in the Midfield, Milne kicked 5 and i thought that he played more as a Half Forward and Saad did some good things, Milera is probably leaving us to go to SA and Schneider has injury issues. I reckon that if we continually play TDL we will be a good player for us.
 

SaintLex

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#5
In my opinion, there's only room for one specialist small forward (if any) in today's game. With the 3 + sub interchange, a team needs midfielders who can rest forward and small forwards who can run through the middle to be able to offset fatigue as much as possible.

Geelong is a good example of this. They have guys like Motlop, Christiansen and Stevie J who get named in the forward pockets, yet average 18+ disposals per game.

It's a massive, massive cost to our team balance to have all of Milne (avg. 11 disp), Saad (avg 8 disp) and Milera (avg. 12 disp) or TDL.

This definitely has an affect on our ability to play consistently for 4 quarters and is a major factor in our 4th quarter fades.

Three specialist small forwards is too much. If we had the midfield depth and ability to play 2 mids + 1 small, I think it would be perfect. We probably don't so i'd play the two best performing small forwards and no more.
 

hayes

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#6
I'm really interested to see how Minchington would go. Knows where the goals are, has pace and the ability to go into the midfield albeit from the limited footage I've seen, and has a big body to go with it. Seems like the perfect small forward for the future, just wish he could get a good run with injury.

TDL is far from safe but I can see some potential in him, and even though he's more of a medium type I think he should only play in the place of a small if you all know what I mean. Doesn't have enough of a presence in the air to take the spot of a tall but can still do some good things with limited opportunities which is ideal for a small forward. Would love to have someone in the team with his dead eye ability. It's either Milera or TDL for mine.

Saad will be fine, just a massive case of second year blues which has been mentioned. Might be putting too much pressure on himself after winning the most exciting youngster award last year or whatever it was. He'll get through this.

Milne 50/50, and I think Schneider will retire. Once those two are gone that's it for small forwards for a long time IMO. They're a dying breed.
 
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Thread starter #7
OP is over reacting and calling for too many players to be delisted. milne and hyphen did enough to keep their spots. saad needs to be dropped.

in terms of delisting, still a while to go. although i do think schneider will retire, milne 50/50. hyphen, milera are in the gun delisting wise. saad will be given time. both milera and hyphen have time to turn it around though
One
And hardly calling for it.
I'm certainly up for discussion regarding how we can function with so many.

I suggested that Schnieder may retire, but none of us really have the information to make that call.
 

Nutsngum

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#8
Saad will be fine, just a massive case of second year blues which has been mentioned. Might be putting too much pressure on himself after winning the most exciting youngster award last year or whatever it was. He'll get through this.

Milne 50/50, and I think Schneider will retire. Once those two are gone that's it for small forwards for a long time IMO. They're a dying breed.
I agree with Saad. He has already shown, particually with his tackling pressure, that he is less of a dedicated small forward them Milne was so will suit the future game better.

Of course, I think that its still a detriment to the game as Milne is one of greatest and most entertaining footballers to watch play.
 

aussierulesrules

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#9
Three specialist small forwards is too much. If we had the midfield depth and ability to play 2 mids + 1 small, I think it would be perfect. We probably don't so i'd play the two best performing small forwards and no more.
Yep, agree with that. I think if we get someone like Billings at the end of the year that would be ideal in that regard, as he is able to play in the midfield and is also very used to playing and playing well in the forward line and is apparently very dangerous there. If we get enough midfield depth going forward, Steven and Armo are also both well suited to playing/resting forward, especially Steven.

Someone mentioned Joey earlier and he might be too, but I actually have visions of him ending up in the back pocket, Burkey-style, to finish off his career, allowing the likes of Wright and Geary to play midfield
 

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#10
As I've said before, as Saints supporters, we have been blessed with seeing a unique player in Mr Stephen Milne. Virtually no team has ever had a player really quite like him. Most small forwards, are really midfielders - often at the beginning or end of their careers - who can't run in the midfield as much, but can kick a few here and there. The general expectation is that they will contribute somewhat in the midfield.

Milne has never had to do that midfield work, because he is simply the most incredible forward of his size ever in the history of the game. His goal-kicking is up with the best tall forwards (and nobody tells THEM to go into the midfield... unless you're Pav and your coach is a bit of a nonse...). That has afforded him the luxury of having unusually low expectations from a midfield perspective.

Here's the thing. If you or I are expecting that we will get another dedicated-gun-small-forward-who-kicks-goals-better-than-a-full-forward, we will be sadly disappointed. They are rare as hen's teeth. Dedicated small-forwards will kick half as many as Milne has, without being capable of the midfield role: see Milera, Saad, TDL. All three of those are a poor man's Milne, right now.

Our only hope, is for them to either move into a midfield role like all the other small forwards do. Or, they will learn from the master, and maybe get closer to the utterly incredible heights that that short little nipper has.
 

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tbarker

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#12
OP is over reacting and calling for too many players to be delisted. milne and hyphen did enough to keep their spots. saad needs to be dropped.

in terms of delisting, still a while to go. although i do think schneider will retire, milne 50/50. hyphen, milera are in the gun delisting wise. saad will be given time. both milera and hyphen have time to turn it around though

Good post Defacto.

I can't have hyphen. He is even worse up close. The TV makes him look good.

Minch is potentially the best of them all because he has some genuine grunt but a better kick and decision maker than Curren or Ledger. Longevity is my only concern.

I still think Milera has the most upside because of his skill set but if his attitude is "go home" and he doesn't get into the gym more then he is no longer in my calculations.
 
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Thread starter #13
:mad: Please note that I did not call for multiple players to get delisted.
Read the OP
It says "According to popular opinion" ( All different ).

After every game there is a raft of posts saying "SMALL FORWARD -X should never play again "

My personal opinion is that we need to retire one of Schnieder and Milne.
Then we will need to make a choice and delist one of TDL , Milera , and Saad.

It seems we will be unlikely to know where we stand with Minch until next year.
 

aussierulesrules

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#14
:mad: Please note that I did not call for multiple players to get delisted.
Read the OP
It says "According to popular opinion" ( All different ).
Misunderstanding, twisting of words, or misquoting, on here? No way man. Wouldn't happen.

Seriously though, I'm not sure how much more clearly you needed to put it than "According to popular opinions ( all different )." and then under the heading "my personal thoughts" say that the only one you thought we should let go was Milera.

In fact, you didn't, it was extremely clear and well written.

Welcome to my world though. :thumbsu:
 

Baldur

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#16
Schneider missing so much has hurt us, has an old man footballer body....years of off season surgery will do that to you.
Schneider has been a good player when fit. But at his age when you begin to get injury after injury that linger on and on. Its your body telling you its time its time.
 
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Thread starter #17
Schneider has been a good player when fit. But at his age when you begin to get injury after injury that linger on and on. Its your body telling you its time its time.
I guess we don't really know what's happening, and it may well be that he can get back to full fitness, but to me he's always been a bit on the slow side ( made up for with lots and lots of smarts ), and to come back after missing so much footy would be pretty amazing. I'd love to see it, but I fear the worst.

( He's played only 9 games this season and last season ).
 
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