Religion Our Universe, Fine-Tuned for Life--Accident or Design?

[yebiga]

Wisdom is wisdom yebiga.....It doesn't have to compare itself to any other work....Any source which contains universal human truths about the human condition - which the Bible undoubtedly does - is a font of wisdom.

That's not to say that there's not alot of nonsense in there also....Separating the chaff from the hay requires discernment....Interpreting passages literally that were meant allegorically & metaphorically is a common error.

It's a seminal work of the Western canon & shall always remain so.....Anyone questioning that fact is allowing bias & anti-religious feelings to blind them to it's significance & place in our History.

Christianity contains within itself a kernel of truth that encapsulates the essence of the human condition.....It's a very psychologically insightful work.

I'm sorry dude but I strongly disagree. Compare the Bible's supposed wisdom to Plato'a work and it's embarrassing to suggest the first is divinely inspired and the second mere philosophy.

The Bible is story's for kids

Plato is divinely inspired - so much so that Christianity twisted itself into knots merge itself with platonic ideas.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'm sorry dude but I strongly disagree. Compare the Bible's supposed wisdom to Plato'a work and it's embarrassing to suggest the first is divinely inspired and the second mere philosophy.

The Bible is story's for kids

Plato is divinely inspired - so much so that Christianity twisted itself into knots merge itself with platonic ideas.

The NT is aimed at the uneducated, non-erudite masses.....Plato's work is aimed at the educated elite.

They both espouse truths on different levels is all.

The universal human condition is what binds the 2 together.....The trick lies in finding the balance & meeting place between the 2.

Plato is all about harmony, the Bible Humility....I'd argue, their ultimately about one & the same thing....Universal justice.

 

[yebiga]

The NT is aimed at the uneducated, non-erudite masses.....Plato's work is aimed at the educated elite.

They both espouse truths on different levels is all.

The universal human condition is what binds the 2 together.....The trick lies in finding the balance & meeting place between the 2.

Plato is all about harmony, the Bible Humility....I'd argue, their ultimately about one & the same thing....Universal justice.

as you say it's for kids - like Alice in wonderland - which is itself superior to the Bible. A thousand and one nights is superior.

All I'm saying is it's one big propaganda hoax. Absent a roman emperor or two who forced Christianity down our throats the Bible would have remained a curiosity.

The genius of Christianity is it's appeal to the disempowered - convincing the mass of humanity to accept their injustices.

In short Christianity is post modern identity politics with a diety. Not wisdom but absurdity.

 

[Procrastinator35]

as you say it's for kids - like Alice in wonderland - which is itself superior to the Bible. A thousand and one nights is superior.

All I'm saying is it's one big propaganda hoax. Absent a roman emperor or two who forced Christianity down our throats the Bible would have remained a curiosity.

The genius of Christianity is it's appeal to the dis-empowered - convincing the mass of humanity to accept their injustices.

In short Christianity is post modern identity politics with a diety. Not wisdom but absurdity.

That's a very simplistic & dismissive reading indeed.....And, I'd suggest, a very uneducated one.....There's plenty of gold nuggets in the Bible.

 

[darth_timon]

FredLeDeux:

Proof that Jehovah exists is seen in our fine-tuned universe. Only someone in denial would assert that fine-tuning can occur by accident. Keep in mind that, by definition, accidents are classified as "nonessential events" and the result of an accident is "undesirable or unfortunate."

Below is the definition of accident from Webster's Dictionary.

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results" (Source: Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary)


NeutralZone

Except if our universe is fine-tuned it's not for our benefit. The universe at large appears to be hostile to life. There are many places where life, certainly intelligent life, cannot hope to take hold. There are many places like that right here on earth. Our planet's surface is two-thirds water yet we are not aquatic. We cannot survive for any reasonable length of time in deserts or at the poles, not without technology that we've provided for ourselves.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Except if our universe is fine-tuned it's not for our benefit. The universe at large appears to be hostile to life. There are many places where life, certainly intelligent life, cannot hope to take hold. There are many places like that right here on earth. Our planet's surface is two-thirds water yet we are not aquatic. We cannot survive for any reasonable length of time in deserts or at the poles, not without technology that we've provided for ourselves.

Ha ha!
I can answer that one!
It's that way because it's god's will, and it's not up to us to second-guess or question his reason for all those seeming design flaws, they must have a purpose unknown to us.

Please note that I solved this one for you without even looking at any of those 2 page "religious" pamplets from which NZ learned all he "knows" about evolution, cosmology, biology, the bible, biblical interpretation and theology.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Except if our universe is fine-tuned it's not for our benefit. The universe at large appears to be hostile to life. There are many places where life, certainly intelligent life, cannot hope to take hold. There are many places like that right here on earth. Our planet's surface is two-thirds water yet we are not aquatic. We cannot survive for any reasonable length of time in deserts or at the poles, not without technology that we've provided for ourselves.

And yet, life exists here on earth anyway....And it is especially prolific within our oceans....Oceans without which, there would be no life on Earth.

We share a uniqueness with the earth in that we are 70 % water, much the same as it's surface.....Accidental Coincidence?.....Not likely.

All the conditions necessary for life to exist on Earth are far too numerous to calculate.....It's perfection itself.

 

[darth_timon]

And yet, life exists here on earth anyway....And it is especially prolific within our oceans....Oceans without which, there would be no life on Earth.

We share a uniqueness with the earth in that we are 70 % water, much the same as it's surface.....Accidental Coincidence?.....Not likely.

All the conditions necessary for life to exist on Earth are far too numerous to calculate.....It's perfection itself.

Yet, humans cannot live in the sea, fish cannot survive on land, etc. There are numerous diseases capable of ending human life, we are vulnerable to all sorts of conditions and injuries...

To say nothing of the hostility to life of the wider universe. We cannot survive on Mars, or Venus, or anywhere else in the solar system. Taking the threat title literally, the universe is not fine-tuned for life. Our own planet isn't - natural disasters can and do routinely kill people - the very planet we life on is a violent place, with lots of places out of bounds for humanity.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yet, humans cannot live in the sea, fish cannot survive on land, etc. There are numerous diseases capable of ending human life, we are vulnerable to all sorts of conditions and injuries...

To say nothing of the hostility to life of the wider universe. We cannot survive on Mars, or Venus, or anywhere else in the solar system. Taking the threat title literally, the universe is not fine-tuned for life. Our own planet isn't - natural disasters can and do routinely kill people - the very planet we life on is a violent place, with lots of places out of bounds for humanity.

And yet, the planet is thriving with life in spite of all your doom & gloom anyways....Imagine that.

 

[darth_timon]

And yet, the planet is thriving with life in spite of all your doom & gloom anyways....Imagine that.

I think you're missing the point... is the planet naturally suited to human life? Nope. We can only survive on limited areas of the planet's surface without technological assistance. The wider question, posed by the thread, of the universe being finely tuned... well, it obviously isn't, and nor is earth

 

[Procrastinator35]

I think you're missing the point... is the planet naturally suited to human life? Nope. We can only survive on limited areas of the planet's surface without technological assistance. The wider question, posed by the thread, of the universe being finely tuned... well, it obviously isn't, and nor is earth

The wider question in the o/p, poses it's terms on the nature of life in general Timon....Ergo, you be wrong....And why?. I hear you ask.

Because the earth is teeming with life in all it's nooks & crannies.....On land, sea, the air & under-ground.....Finely tuned indeed.

 

[yebiga]

That's a very simplistic & dismissive reading indeed.....And, I'd suggest, a very uneducated one.....There's plenty of gold nuggets in the Bible.

The media has spent barely 9 months repeating that Trump Russia collusion without providing a shred of evidence - and guess what - most people believe there is something to it.
Now, after almost 2 millennia of being told the Bible is the very word of god and what hope is there of anyone considering it objectively.
It s a pretty big book - no doubt it stumbles on to the odd truism sprinkled with a good dose of plagiarism. There is a heap of neglected literature which pre-dates and far exceeds the beauty and wisdom within the Bible.

It should annoy you that this phantasm continues to received such unwarranted devoted attention. It has directly caused some of the vilest inhumanity through out history. Against, those overwhelming damning annals of depravity - how in good faith can people still persist with this unsubstantiated reverence?

 

[darth_timon]

The wider question in the o/p, poses it's terms on the nature of life in general Timon....Ergo, you be wrong....And why?. I hear you ask.

Because the earth is teeming with life in all it's nooks & crannies.....On land, sea, the air & under-ground.....Finely tuned indeed.

Except none of the life here on earth can claim to be perfectly adapted - it is and always has been vulnerable to even relatively minor changes to the eco-system that can trigger extinctions. The earth itself routinely hurts life through earthquakes, volcanoes and other natural disasters, that seems to cast doubt on the idea that earth is finely-tuned for life. If earth were created and then tuned by a powerful being, that being did a bad job. Why else would there be so many natural disasters, why else have there been mass extinctions throughout history, why else are there so many diseases that can kill or cripple so many creatures, including us?

 

[Procrastinator35]

The media has spent barely 9 months repeating that Trump Russia collusion without providing a shred of evidence - and guess what - most people believe there is something to it.
Now, after almost 2 millennia of being told the Bible is the very word of god and what hope is there of anyone considering it objectively.
It s a pretty big book - no doubt it stumbles on to the odd truism sprinkled with a good dose of plagiarism. There is a heap of neglected literature which pre-dates and far exceeds the beauty and wisdom within the Bible.

It should annoy you that this phantasm continues to received such unwarranted devoted attention. It has directly caused some of the vilest inhumanity through out history. Against, those overwhelming damning annals of depravity - how in good faith can people still persist with this unsubstantiated reverence?

And yet, one can still look for the beauty & wisdom contained therein nonetheless.....Esse percepti.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Except none of the life here on earth can claim to be perfectly adapted - it is and always has been vulnerable to even relatively minor changes to the eco-system that can trigger extinctions. The earth itself routinely hurts life through earthquakes, volcanoes and other natural disasters, that seems to cast doubt on the idea that earth is finely-tuned for life. If earth were created and then tuned by a powerful being, that being did a bad job. Why else would there be so many natural disasters, why else have there been mass extinctions throughout history, why else are there so many diseases that can kill or cripple so many creatures, including us?

And yet life still flourishes in droves nonetheless....It's almost as if the earth is a living entity all of it's own....If the planets were not placed precisely in their alignment, then there'd be no life on earth....I'm not entirely sure how much more fine-tuned our solar system needs to be, to enable that kind of an accidental occurrence.....Not to mention the earth's mantle, it's electro-magnetic field & Van Allen belts....All crucial to the existence & maintenance of life here on earth.....But no, no.....It's all just an accidental coincidence I tell you.

 

[darth_timon]

And yet life still flourishes in droves nonetheless....It's almost as if the earth is a living entity all of it's own....If the planets were not placed precisely in their alignment, then there'd be no life on earth....I'm not entirely sure how much more fine-tuned our solar system needs to be, to enable that kind of an accidental occurrence.....Not to mention the earth's mantle, it's electro-magnetic field & Van Allen belts....All crucial to the existence & maintenance of life here on earth.....But no, no.....It's all just an accidental coincidence I tell you.

You're ignoring the point. A world finely tuned for life would not be one rife with disease, one that is filled with natural disasters and one that can be completely undone by the slightest variations to planetary conditions. If the earth were designed, it's clear it's a flawed design, despite the points you've raised. How else can you explain all the problems?

 

[Procrastinator35]

You're ignoring the point. A world finely tuned for life would not be one rife with disease, one that is filled with natural disasters and one that can be completely undone by the slightest variations to planetary conditions. If the earth were designed, it's clear it's a flawed design, despite the points you've raised. How else can you explain all the problems?

But life persists & flourishes nonetheless....Because all the necessary pre-conditions for it are aligned & in place....I'll leave it to you to deduce the over-arching truth.

 

[darth_timon]

But life persists & flourishes nonetheless....Because all the necessary pre-conditions for it are aligned & in place....I'll leave it to you to deduce the over-arching truth.

You haven't shown how the mere existence of life or its ability to persist means the earth (or the universe) are finely tuned for it. You're creating a Red Herring argument. The earth is not fine-tuned for life. I have pointed out, repeatedly, the many ways in which it is not. You have ignored this. I suggest you take the time to familiarise yourself with the Red Herring Fallacy and then address the actual points raised.

 

[Procrastinator35]

You haven't shown how the mere existence of life or its ability to persist means the earth (or the universe) are finely tuned for it. You're creating a Red Herring argument. The earth is not fine-tuned for life. I have pointed out, repeatedly, the many ways in which it is not. You have ignored this. I suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with the Red Herring Fallacy and then address the actual points raised.

LOL....Yer what?....Suggest you re-read your own guff there Darth.....The saying 'Cart before the horse' comes to mind.

I don't need an argument, when the earth is an argument for itself, including our own existence.....The fact you can't even see that is some pretty funny stuff indeed.

The Earth is life itself Darth.....Including all the Red Herrings that exist within it.....LOL

 

[darth_timon]

LOL....Yer what?....Suggest you re-read your own guff there Darth.....The saying 'Cart before the horse' comes to mind.

I don't need an argument, when the earth is an argument for itself, including our own existence.....The fact you can't even see that is some pretty funny stuff indeed.

The Earth is life itself Darth.....Including all the Red Herrings that exist within it.....LOL

I'll take your non-answer as an admission you cannot answer me thank you.


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[NeutralZone]

Procrastinator35:

I guess that explains why there are thousands of innocent people behind bars, serving time for crimes they did not commit--because the prosecutor "proved" they did it. Right?

I doubt there are thousands.

Illinois Nazi:

The evidence says there are thousands of innocent people in jail.

USA:
"Death sentences are uniquely well-documented. We don’t know nearly enough about other kinds of criminal cases to estimate the rate of wrongful convictions for those. The rate could be lower than for capital murders, or it could be higher. Of course, in a country with millions of criminal convictions a year and more than 2 million people behind bars, even 1 percent amounts to tens of thousands of tragic errors."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...eddc056ad8a_story.html?utm_term=.0293024ec921​

Now, if there are thousands of innocents locked behind bars in the USA, where people are given free lawyers if they can't afford one, what do you suppose is happening in Australia where there is no offering of free legal counsel?

AUSTRALIA:
"It has also been pointed out that in the United States, every person has a legal right to a lawyer, whereas in Australia there are many who are forced to represent themselves because they are not eligible for legal aid but cannot afford a private lawyer.

Those factors suggest that the rate of wrongful convictions in Australia may be high, and that many of those convicted and sent to prison are in fact innocent."
https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.c...likely-to-be-overturned-than-other-countries/​

So my point remains: The person who claims Jehovah is not eternal has the burden of proving it. The person doing the denying bears the burden of proof. This can be compared to a person accused of a crime who denies committing the crime. But his or her denial is not going to get him/her released from jail. He or she must produce evidence to prove his or her innocence.

NeutralZone

 

[M Malice]

And yet life still flourishes in droves nonetheless....It's almost as if the earth is a living entity all of it's own....If the planets were not placed precisely in their alignment, then there'd be no life on earth....I'm not entirely sure how much more fine-tuned our solar system needs to be, to enable that kind of an accidental occurrence.....Not to mention the earth's mantle, it's electro-magnetic field & Van Allen belts....All crucial to the existence & maintenance of life here on earth.....But no, no.....It's all just an accidental coincidence I tell you.

I am with you on this one P35, the earth appears to be fine tuned for life although IMO it is merely a fait accompli of nature, a numerical certainty if you will that life flourishes on this magnificent awesomely natural globe, stand in awe of nature not some fairy tale biblical insecure creator in need of reassurance.

You nailed it with the bolded.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Illinois Nazi:

So my point remains: The person who claims Jehovah is not eternal has the burden of proving it. The person doing the denying bears the burden of proof. This can be compared to a person accused of a crime who denies committing the crime. But his or her denial is not going to get him/her released from jail. He or she must produce evidence to prove his or her innocence.

NeutralZone

You don't think small do you?

First you completely and convincingly overturn 700 years of common law history by totally reversing the burden of proof.

And now you fundamentally reverse 2500 years of development in logic by totally reversing the burden of proof there, as well.

That's one in the eye for you Aristotle.

Mind you, one wonders why, if you are so convinced of your claims about jehovah, you are so resistant to even trying to prove them.

Perhaps you need to ask the rev for bigger pamphlets.

 

[chelseacarlton]

It's finely tuned to destroy.
Yet,life adapts,it evolves to its circumstances,not the other way round as the fundies love to suggest,the perfect example of cart before the horse.
Unless of course they can provide even one piece of evidence for their argument,just one piece is all it would take!
Just 1!

 

[M Malice]

It's finely tuned to destroy.
Yet,life adapts,it evolves to its circumstances,not the other way round as the fundies love to suggest,the perfect example of cart before the horse.
Unless of course they can provide even one piece of evidence for their argument,just one piece is all it would take!
Just 1!

Brilliant cc, you nailed the blindingly bloody obvious, why the hell didn't I see it. EVOLUTION!

They do say sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.