Religion Our Universe, Fine-Tuned for Life--Accident or Design?

[yebiga]

Illinois Nazi:

No, it is not. The person DENYING must prove his/her innocence. One of the reasons why innocent people end up in jail is because evidence of their innocence is ignored or not found.

NeutralZone

Because of the confidence in which you post this nonsense, I am compelled to respond.

The reason people end up in prison is because the evidence of their guilt is overwhelming - beyond a reasonable doubt.
We are all assumed to be innocent until proven other-wise.

The first document raised in a court hearing is the Charge or Claim and part of that includes the evidence. If that is flimsy the matter doesn't even get to court.

So here we are all getting along swimmingly, when some dude makes an unverifiable claim about this Jehovah and his magnificent eternalness, etcetera, etcetera.
Nice! Prove it!

(Answer):- quote from bible

Sorry, case dismissed as hopeless -

 

[Mningasimisonda]

I'm not sure that you recognize how you have utterly contradicted yourself here.....Those petty, insignificant limitations you speak of, are what both bound & enact an order into the chaos....Almost as if, they were set there for a reason.

Hint: You can't use a tool of intelligent design (Man's cognitive, reasoning mind) to disprove the phenomenon itself in nature.....You kind of cut your own feet off at the base, so to speak, in both a metaphorical & ontological way.....Though I feel sure that those with an ounce of nous will comprehend the absurdity involved in your argument.

I'm agnostic in a sense for this exact reason. I have no care for creating theories I can't test then arguing about them as though there is a point to it.

By the way, the bounding just means things have properties. So does a rock, but I don't call it intelligent to try to prove there is a God.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'm agnostic in a sense for this exact reason. I have no care for creating theories I can't test then arguing about them as though there is a point to it.

By the way, the bounding just means things have properties. So does a rock, but I don't call it intelligent to try to prove there is a God.

I'm not trying to prove there is a God by it....People can come to their own conclusions about that.

The point was rather more one about the nature of man & the presuppositions that adhere behind argumentation as such.

Even your point above has some design & structure to it.....I mean, You had to engage your intellect in order to construct it for a start.

Perhaps now, you can see my point.....Namely: That a design structure is hard-wired into the human psyche.....That our minds are an aspect of nature become self-consciously manifest....

 

[Mningasimisonda]

I'm not trying to prove there is a God by it....People can come to their own conclusions about that.

The point was rather more one about the nature of man & the presuppositions that adhere behind argumentation as such.

Even your point above has some design & structure to it.....I mean, You had to engage your intellect in order to construct it for a start.

Perhaps now, you can see my point.....Namely: That a design structure is hard-wired into the human psyche.....That our minds are an aspect of nature become self-consciously manifest....

I think it is natural to see beauty in nature and humans. We're on the same page there.

I've learnt enough science to see it differently maybe. i.e. it all looks less magical when you see the tricks behind it.

Also science doesn't really support that the universe is deterministic. People just get that idea from carefully controlled lab experiments at school and TV scientists.

 

[M Malice]

I think it is natural to see beauty in nature and humans. We're on the same page there.

I've learnt enough science to see it differently maybe. i.e. it all looks less magical when you see the tricks behind it.

Welcome to the thread M, great few posts. Evolution and infinity explain our existence IMO, and I couldn't agree more with the bolded, stand in awe of the magnificence of nature not some make believe bearded man in the sky.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I think it is natural to see beauty in nature and humans. We're on the same page there.

I've learnt enough science to see it differently maybe. i.e. it all looks less magical when you see the tricks behind it.

Also science doesn't really support that the universe is deterministic. People just get that idea from carefully controlled lab experiments at school and TV scientists.

Sure....Beauty is all about symmetry & proportion.

But again....You've missed the point.

'Seeing' behind the tricks' has nothing to do with your study of science, but is rather more about man's abstract conceptual abilities to 'see beyond' the mundane via the transcendent principle implicit within our psychic make-up.

You'll get a grasp of metaphysics one day, I'm sure.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

Sure....Beauty is all about symmetry & proportion.

But again....You've missed the point.

'Seeing' behind the tricks' has nothing to do with your study of science, but is rather more about man's abstract conceptual abilities to 'see beyond' the mundane via the transcendent principle implicit within our psychic make-up.

You'll get a grasp of metaphysics one day, I'm sure.

Maybe. I think Google is a bit ahead of me though. It defines metaphysics as: "abstract theory with no basis in reality".

 

[cannot]

Maybe. I think Google is a bit ahead of me though. It defines metaphysics as: "abstract theory with no basis in reality".

they changed their motto from "dont be evil" a couple year ago... take it with a grain of salt

Sure....Beauty is all about symmetry & proportion.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Maybe. I think Google is a bit ahead of me though. It defines metaphysics as: "abstract theory with no basis in reality".

Nice.

You'd better let Stephen Hawking know that all his publisher's want their money back then.

 

[RupieDupie]

Google: Don't do evil
Yet only Google has a monopoly on what it is to do so

And yet, life exists here on earth anyway....And it is especially prolific within our oceans....Oceans without which, there would be no life on Earth.

We share a uniqueness with the earth in that we are 70 % water, much the same as it's surface.....Accidental Coincidence?.....Not likely.

All the conditions necessary for life to exist on Earth are far too numerous to calculate.....It's perfection itself.

But wouldn't it be simpler to argue that the reason that the an organism is suited to its environment was that it evolved to be that way? Not by accident?

 

[M Malice]

But wouldn't it be simpler to argue that the reason that the an organism is suited to its environment was that it evolved to be that way? Not by accident?

Didn't you know RD, no such thing as evolution, life just blinked into existence due to the creator, he or she is a tad narcissistic and needy though, hence the required worship.

 

[RupieDupie]

Didn't you know RD, no such thing as evolution, life just blinked into existence due to the creator, he or she is a tad narcissistic and needy though, hence the required worship.

And what's even cooler is The God Quantum Effect, in that the more a person can say about their God* the easier it is to have a dogma for all to follow, but simultaneously also makes it easier to prove that their God does not exist. The less a person can say about their God* the harder it becomes for a person to prove that their God does not exist yet this does not lead to a dogma for all to follow.

If Creationists want to make their God abstract, at least they cannot also argue that the same God hates homosexuals etc

*Supernatural God rather than a tree or another person

 

[Pessimistic]

the argument that 'everything must have a designer/creator' falls over when you ask who created god?

 

[FredLeDeux]

the argument that 'everything must have a designer/creator' falls over when you ask who created god?

It's called infinite recursion, and raises reasonable doubts about his being a creator.

Unless, of course, NZ is correct and "jehovah" is "eternal" because the bloke/s who wrote Psalms told "jehovah" that he was "eternal"; there is no evidence that he actually knew he was "eternal" until that/those bloke/blokes told him about it, but maybe he had just decided to keep it a secret up until then, who are we to question his mysterious ways?

After all, nobody has produced any evidence to prove this, but nobody has disproved it either, so therefore it's the truth.

 

[RupieDupie]

It's called infinite recursion, and raises reasonable doubts about his being a creator.

Unless, of course, NZ is correct and "jehovah" is "eternal" because the bloke/s who wrote Psalms told "jehovah" that he was "eternal"; there is no evidence that he actually knew he was "eternal" until that/those bloke/blokes told him about it, but maybe he had just decided to keep it a secret up until then, who are we to question his mysterious ways?

After all, nobody has produced any evidence to prove this, but nobody has disproved it either, so therefore it's the truth.

Suppose, time = change, then an "eternity" of no change would be not even an instant of time, nothing much to do with the discussion though....

 

[FredLeDeux]

Suppose, time = change, then an "eternity" of no change would be not even an instant of time, nothing much to do with the discussion though....

FFS, don't start him off about that time is change gobbledygook again.

 

[Procrastinator35]

And you're presenting those 2 sentences as contraries.....You do have a sense of humor.

 

[Pessimistic]

Polar bears have adapted or fine tuned to their environment, as have penguins.

They're poles apart though

 

[La Di Da]

it is pure narcissism and human ego to suggest that everything was created by design for us. I'm not sure how anybody could come to any other conclusion.

 

[Pessimistic]

it is pure narcissism and human ego to suggest that everything was created by design for us. I'm not sure how anybody could come to any other conclusion.

Narcissism combined with denouncing narcissism at aevery opportunity

 

[chelseacarlton]

You needn't look any further than genesis 1:25-27 and 2:19-19
That's about all we need to know about creation.
Wrong!

 

[NeutralZone]

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

Quoting the Bible in this instance is a form of self-referencing.

It's circular reasoning.

'God exists because he says so in the Bible'.

darth_timon:

Why? Because you say so?

It so happens that the Bible is inspired of God, and there is ample evidence to prove it.

NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

Your using a clever variation of Chewbacca defense.

So clearly Jehovah must exist

Otherwise it makes no sense

You must acquit.

yebiga:

Evidence that Jehovah exists is seen in our fine-tuned universe, unless you can provide us with a credible explanation for how precision in the universe happened by itself--repeatedly.

NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

The reason people end up in prison is because the evidence of their guilt is overwhelming - beyond a reasonable doubt.
We are all assumed to be innocent until proven other-wise.

yebiga:

I guess that explains why thousands of innocent people are sitting in jail. Because "the evidence of their guilt is overwhelming - beyond a reasonable doubt." Correct?

By the way, I went through this routine a couple times already in this thread, where I presented evidence of thousands of innocent people being in jail for crimes they did not commit. I presented evidence of such at Post 284. Here is the link to that particular post: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ident-or-design.1170044/page-12#post-51764243

NeutralZone

 

[yebiga]

yebiga:

Evidence that Jehovah exists is seen in our fine-tuned universe, unless you can provide us with a credible explanation for how precision in the universe happened by itself--repeatedly.

NeutralZone

Who is this dude Jehovah? Did you know the Hindu's think god is an elephant called Ganesh? It s like a metaphor I suppose.
There are a number of scientists who reckon we are living in a simulation. Now, that would explain all the precision in the universe your seeing.

Tell me, when you look up into the night sky - do you actually see Jehovah? Do you see Jehovah anywhere? Where did you even hear of this Jehovah?

Why can't Neo of the Matrix be Jehovah? And as you say, you can't prove his not. So the possibility that my next stool is the creator is equally disprovable.