Analysis Our weakpoints

[Chief Ten Beers]

Our weak point? Too easy....J White.

 

[Robroy22]

On the whole thing excellent points raised.
All sides need the big boys and good big boys.

That's why I bang on about cox, err, Witts and Grundy and not to readily give away our big Fellowes (not wes, he was always welcome to pack up and go, just an aside) in trades or swaps with other clubs unless it's the mother of all deals.
The matter raised in your post is, we do have what we require, but we are awaiting their natural maturity which takes time as Goldstein took a few years as did that redwood tree in Freo.
And we will have three redwood Giants to choose from. Happy days (not the Fonze w w w rrrr oooo ng)

Only issue I slightly feel is not correct is McEvoy, I think he's an average value conveyance and no improvement is likely. He's ok, but just ok.

In fact I am positive if we said to hawthorn today for this season only
We will take Hale (after defrosting him for another year, groan) McEvoy, and tunnel ball star Jack Fitzpatrick and Ceglar (giggle) and you take Grundy, Witts, Cox (that's 4 for 3) they would so quickly swap we wouldn't get out the door and they'd have the contracts done.

I'd take McEvoy and Hale right now and laugh....(even though one's a Freo coach)....They both have mature bodies (something we'll still have another two years or so to wait for) and play their roles to perfection. Hawthorn has always valued combative rucks, they don't have to be elite athletes or have Farmer like skills to be successful. I'd say McEvoy is at least on par with Charlie Manson and surprise surprise....they're both premiership ruckmen.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Don't think a years experience can be counted on to get them there though....Rucks need to be fearless buggers.

They are both tough as nails. They just need time. Grundy will be a top three ruckman in the competition at some point in his career and Witts potentially could be better than Grundy at actual ruckwork, but less effective around teh ground.

I have every faith that for once we are on the right path with ruckmen after 20+ years of failure (small window with Jolly for 2-3 years the exception)

 

[Robroy22]

They are both tough as nails. They just need time.

Great....can't wait to see some dominance from them

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I'd take McEvoy and Hale right now and laugh....(even though one's a Freo coach)....They both have mature bodies (something we'll still have another two years or so to wait for) and play their roles to perfection. Hawthorn has always valued combative rucks, they don't have to be elite athletes or have Farmer like skills to be successful. I'd say McEvoy is at least on par with Charlie Manson and surprise surprise....they're both premiership ruckmen.

Manson better competitor, McEvoy more naturally capable if I put it that way.
McEvoy to me is average ok, Hawthorn would today play Grundy before McEvoy.
If Grundy was a hawk some here would likely be bleating why didn't we get someone like Grundy. Graham wright is so good as a recruiter, how did we miss him etc etc etc
Just my view.

Ceglar, Fitzpatrick they are there to fill gaps etc

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Great....can't wait to see some dominance from them

Thats the problem. You cant wait.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Manson better competitor, McEvoy more naturally capable if I put it that way.
McEvoy to me is average ok, Hawthorn would today play Grundy before McEvoy.
If Grundy was a hawk some here would likely be bleating why didn't we get someone like Grundy. Graham wright is so good as a recruiter, how did we miss him etc etc etc
Just my view.

Ceglar, Fitzpatrick they are there to fill gaps etc

Sorry I meant to say

James Manson is a ripper bloke and was a great clubman. What he got out of himself is an example to everyone about endeavour and application.

 

[Robroy22]

Thats the problem. You cant wait.

Timmy I was born in 1949.....I waited from '58-90.....believe me I can wait!
I just don't want to concentrate on more midfielders or kicking efficiency stats when I know the main position we need filled is that of a dominant ruckman.
I hope we get two or three out of this current batch, but until we do....the other "tactics" will just be "finger in the dyke" responses to our problems.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Great....can't wait to see some dominance from them

It's coming soon enough
especially cox he'll come soon enough into the top choices we have.

One thing Jolly was super for us and so important. With hard as player, ball, that ensured a genuine premiership shot,which came to fruition

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Timmy I was born in 1949.....I waited from '58-90.....believe me I can wait!
I just don't want to concentrate on more midfielders or kicking efficiency stats when I know the main position we need filled is that of a dominant ruckman.
I hope we get two or three out of this current batch, but until we do....the other "tactics" will just be "finger in the dyke" responses to our problems.

Are we allowed to talk about fingers in dykes?

 

[Robroy22]

Are we allowed to talk about fingers in dykes?

In the context I said it in....I still think its relevant. I guess if ppl want to draw other analogies they can.....but seriosly, why would you?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

In the context I said it in....I still think its relevant. I guess if ppl want to draw other analogies they can.....but seriosly, why would you?

Just mucking around. Tongue firmly in cheek...

Bothers me not the slightest.
I guess I was augmenting the play on words and the perhaps double meaning.

I'm not against any form of language use that was employed.

Been a lovely day here in Melbourne, just returned from the races, good day, as no betting cane home even

 

[Gone Critical]

Loving this discussion. Agree with Rob an aggressive good ruckman in finals especially is worth their weight in gold. Still don't particularly see McEvoy as that. For mine Hawks have shown you can get flags with ordinary rucks. Also Charlie Manson V McEvoy is not right as one was a second ruck. Manson was perfect in that role but I doubt he could have pulled off 1st ruck duties. McEvoy can but he isn't fearless like Charlie.

We are well placed I believe and Cox could, as Saintly pointed out, become like no one else has ever been that's the dream

 

[Gone Critical]

Just mucking around. Tongue firmly in cheek...

Bothers me not the slightest.
I guess I was augmenting the play on words and the perhaps double meaning.

I'm not against any form of language use that was employed.

Been a lovely day here in Melbourne, just returned from the races, good day, as no betting cane home even

Sitting in Byron rIght now, sunny lovely day also

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Timmy I was born in 1949.....I waited from '58-90.....believe me I can wait!
I just don't want to concentrate on more midfielders or kicking efficiency stats when I know the main position we need filled is that of a dominant ruckman.
I hope we get two or three out of this current batch, but until we do....the other "tactics" will just be "finger in the dyke" responses to our problems.

It was a general comment about impatience....wasnt specifically pointed at you even if it seemed that way. Apologies for that....couldnt help myself!!! I think list-wise we have most positions covered for the future both immediate and longer term. I dont think we have any "problems" as such.....but its a very competitive game and you need a lot of things to go your way, especially in our case player development and injury management. Grundy is as exciting a prospect as we have had since Moore and we have Witts as backup who is probably a better prospect than anybody weve had since Monkorst....except for Grundy. And we have Moore junior also on the list....a better second ruck since I dont know when......probably since his old man was Len Thompsons understudy

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Sitting in Byron rIght now, sunny lovely day also

Wonderful

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Why less Broomhead when he is 1 of our most Classiest Players?

Because he is yet to prove himself as a consistent player, is not noted for his clearance numbers and is small, lightly built and easily brushed aside - hence 'lesser'!

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Am also enjoying this discussion, particularly Robroys' contribution. Knightmare has convinced me that Reid and Maynard need to play back as rebounding defenders to give us some chance of hitting a target upfield. Aish may be another candidate for a rebounding role, but I have to admit to knowing next to nothing about Phillips, though I can only hope he lives up to the early hype.

Thank God for something more serious than a basketballer's love for Maxwell and that cretinous creature we lost to the Saints. Scharenburgs' loss is going to really effect our rebound and defence. With him in the side I'd have been far more optimistic about our ability to impact the competition in 2016.

Witts and Grundy really need to repay our faith in them this season. They have both been given lots of opportunity for development and are expected to start winning their fair share of taps this season. We can't continue making allowance for their youth when they are no longer truly youthful.

 

[PicaBoo]

Our weak point? Too easy....J White.

You mean the 3rd tall that lost almost 10kg of weight in the preseason, played as 2nd tall and 2nd ruck and had a good season according to his abilities ?
Too easy indeed for those who don't want to blame their fav posterboys in the fwd line like Cloke & Elliott.

 

[TradeDraft]

I hate to over simplify but our main point of weakness is our rucks. Look at the good sides, you'll see a good to dominant ruckman. It's no coincidence that we've slipped back in all respects since Jolly was retired. The game starts in the middle, every few minutes it returns there and in between times there are stoppages manufactured by defensive structures that favour the big strong bodied rucks like Mumford, McEvoy or Goldstein. If you look at premiership sides over the years you'll find the ones that dominated had great BIG rucks. Charman and Keating, Ottens, Lee, Monkhurst, Madden, Jolly (at two clubs) Polly Farmer, Nicholls....it's a pre-curser to success. Get a dominant ruckman or pair of rucks and you can win a flag. The fact that North made a PF last year is all due to Goldstein....thats how far a dominant ruckman can take a side.
Since Jolly left we've wobbled along with our pair of baby rucks and they just get smashed at centre bounces. So much so that even great midfielders like Pendles, Swanny and Beams couldn't compete with other mids and had resort to "roving to the opposition rucks". Being the 18th side in centre clearances exemplifies our predicament.
A midfielder of Buckley's caliber ( and Robert Harvey, Scotty Burns etc...) knows the importance of strong rucks so I can only presume that they have undergone this long drawn out ( and some might say painful )process of "blooding" our young rucks and getting game time and pre seasons into them so that their development coincides with the renewal and regeneration of the club over all.

When one of (or hopefully all of ) Grundy, Witts, Cox become dominant centre bounce ruckmen then everything else will flow. Winning centre clearances puts oppositions on the back foot and makes defending a lot easier. It also gives our forwards the ability to lead into space because we have the initiative from a centre clearance.

Its our biggest weakness. If it gets solved this year we can look forward to a lot more success.
We NEED a DOMINANT RUCKMAN.

It has been a Weakness but can become a Strength will Quickly

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Am also enjoying this discussion, particularly Robroys' contribution. Knightmare has convinced me that Reid and Maynard need to play back as rebounding defenders to give us some chance of hitting a target upfield. Aish may be another candidate for a rebounding role, but I have to admit to knowing next to nothing about Phillips, though I can only hope he lives up to the early hype.

Thank God for something more serious than a basketballer's love for Maxwell and that cretinous creature we lost to the Saints. Scharenburgs' loss is going to really effect our rebound and defence. With him in the side I'd have been far more optimistic about our ability to impact the competition in 2016.

Witts and Grundy really need to repay our faith in them this season. They have both been given lots of opportunity for development and are expected to start winning their fair share of taps this season. We can't continue making allowance for their youth when they are no longer truly youthful.

You are only as young as you feel

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

You are only as young as you feel

Grundy will be 22 in April:

And Witts will be 23 and a half:

It is time for Witts to strut his stuff. And Grundy has teased us with his talents since year 1, but must now show why he should never have dropped so far to us in the draft order, from 5 (or so) to 18.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Grundy will be 22 in April:

And Witts will be 23 and a half:

It is time for Witts to strut his stuff. And Grundy has teased us with his talents since year 1, but must now show why he should never have dropped to us so far in the draft order, from 5 (or so) to 18.

Agree it's their time, now go out and earn it

 

[NT.Thunder]

Sounds like there would've been a lot of pressure on Shaz this season had he been fit to play

 

[PicaBoo]

Sounds like there would've been a lot of pressure on Shaz this season had he been fit to play

There is a lot of pressure on anyone who is fit to play, bar a few elite players.