Outstanding Performance: Clean, Enhanced or Juiced

[Vader]

Are those times from training rides on Strava or in-stage times?

Either way, it shows that Pogacar's time isn't as unbelievable as some make out given this time was a short TT that Pog could go all out, and not at the end of a long stage with more racing to follow

There's several ways you could read it.

I regard Froome & Nibali as 2 of the worst dopers of the last 15 years, albeit using drugs which have so far proven undetectable. That Pogacar has beaten their bests by 10 & 30 seconds respectively casts a huge shadow over Pogacar's ride last night. Remember that's at least the 3rd climb this Tour which he (and other riders) have smashed the previous records. This year's peleton is clearly on some very good juice.

On the other hand, the times set by Nibali, Froome & Aru were probably at the end of a 150+km stage, whereas Pogacar was starting relatively fresh with only 20km of flat TT behind him at the start of the climb.

 

[Vader]

At the time I was "that is some BS"...but given the chasing pack were a bunch of softies, I dunno.

Nah... it was no more believable than Landis' big day out.

 

[Number37]

Are those times from training rides on Strava or in-stage times?

Either way, it shows that Pogacar's time, while great, isn't as unbelievable as some make out given this time was a short TT that Pog could go all out, and not at the end of a long stage with more racing to follow

They're all in-stage times...most teams now upload their data to Strava.

To be fair, those previous records were set at the end of a stage - not a short TT.

Yep but they wouldn't have gone full gas from the bottom.

 

[Stuxnet]

99 times out of 100 that TT from Roglic not only holds onto that lead but extends it. Freakish ride from Pogacâr

Was so freakish that its quite unbelievable isnt it?

Slovenia the new kings of doping (i guess they already were pre tour)

 

[PoopingHindi]

Was so freakish that its quite unbelievable isnt it?

Slovenia the new kings of doping (i guess they already were pre tour)

every time someone is successful in cycling they're the new king of doping. it's getting old.
i'm pretty sure they all dope equally. some respond better, some have more talent and some work harder.

 

[Visions]

I feel Dumoulin's comments are pretty direspectful, he rode a TT bike up a climb with multiple 11% sections. The bike would have to be at least a kilo heavier than a road bike and his body weight would 10kg heavier than Pog. VanAert would also 10kg heavier. At 400 watts the Pog would be about 2-3kmh quicker up the climb than those 2. The bigger question is how he was so fast on the flat.

Exactly.

Porte also was a minute quicker up the climb than Dumoulin too. Does he think that is suss too?

 

[Stuxnet]

every time someone is successful in cycling they're the new king of doping. it's getting old.
i'm pretty sure they all dope equally. some respond better, some have more talent and some work harder.

Mmm nah. This was lance armstrong, floyd landis style disgrace. They might all dope, but for sure they dont all dope equally. Dont be a fool.

 

[Over The Post]

I created a new thread for this given this morning's news that Arkea-Samsic are in the s**t which of course taints Nairo Quintana and Warren Barguil.

Two in custody over suspected doping at this year's Tour de France

Two people are in custody as French prosecutors launch an investigation into potential doping offences at this year's Tour de France.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Number37]

I created a new thread for this given this morning's news that Arkea-Samsic are in the sh*t which of course taints Nairo Quintana and Warren Barguil.

Two in custody over suspected doping at this year's Tour de France

Two people are in custody as French prosecutors launch an investigation into potential doping offences at this year's Tour de France.

www.abc.net.au

They searched the rooms of Nairo & Dayer Quintana and Winner Anacona.
Barguill is in the clear.

 

[owen87]

Exactly.

Porte also was a minute quicker up the climb than Dumoulin too. Does he think that is suss too?

It's the speed on the flat over Dumoulin that really stands out, you'd expect guys like Porte / Pogacar / Roglic to be quicker on the climb with a road bike, but on the flat?

Pogacar's ride is in the alien territory of unbelievable.

Entertaining to watch though.

 

[Number37]

It's the speed on the flat over Dumoulin that really stands out, you'd expect guys like Porte / Pogacar / Roglic to be quicker on the climb with a road bike, but on the flat?

Pogacar's ride is in the alien territory of unbelievable.

Entertaining to watch though.

He took most of the time in the 2nd half of the ITT against every rider.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-where-tadej-pogacar-won-the-tour-de-france-time-trial/

 

[drd23]

Later on, Arkéa-Samsic released a statement on the matter, with team manager Emmanuel Hubert saying that the investigation concerned "a very limited number of riders and their close relatives who are not employed by the team". He added that the team would "disassociate" itself from such acts if the investigation confirms that doping has taken place.

French police open doping investigation after Arkea-Samsic hotel search at Tour de France

Prosecutor talks of discovery of medicines and 'a method that could be qualified as doping'

www.cyclingnews.com

Sounds like the Arkea-Samsic team manager is throwing the Colombians under the bus

 

[Orange Agent]

French police open doping investigation after Arkea-Samsic hotel search at Tour de France

Prosecutor talks of discovery of medicines and 'a method that could be qualified as doping'

www.cyclingnews.com

Sounds like the Arkea-Samsic team manager is throwing the Colombians under the bus

For whatever reason they replaced the team doctor with Nairo's Columbian doctor, maybe it was Nairo's insistence, doesn't look great. Whatever they were using it was the wrong stuff.

 

[Orange Agent]

It's the speed on the flat over Dumoulin that really stands out, you'd expect guys like Porte / Pogacar / Roglic to be quicker on the climb with a road bike, but on the flat?

Pogacar's ride is in the alien territory of unbelievable.

Entertaining to watch though.

I thought the JV guys apart from WVA all looked pretty sore, they all struggled to stand on the pedals with quad tightness which makes it very hard to generate cadence and power. Robbie McEwen spoke about Pogi still having puppy fat because his legs aren't full developed at 21. It think this ended up working in his favour. And he has been smashing climbing records for over 12 months now. Last year's Tour of California is a prime example.

 

[drd23]

Quintana's put out a statement saying that they were only legal "vitamin supplements" that were seized in the raid

Late on Tuesday night, Quintana released a statement to social media giving his side of the story. The 30-year-old, who finished 17th in Paris, said that the police had seized "perfectly legal" vitamin supplements, adding that no doping substances were found during the raid.

"The French gendarmerie carried out an operation in the hotel where my team was staying on Wednesday 16th September in Meribel, after the stage of the Tour de France had finished," Quintana wrote.

"On that day the authorities entered my room and seized vitamin supplements that were perfectly legal, although perhaps not familiar to the French authorities. This is the main reason why it has taken time to clear up everything that happened.

"To avoid any doubt, I would like to confirm that no doping substances were ever found."

Quintana's long-time soigneur, Mikel Otero, and Fredy Alexander González Torres, a doctor reportedly called up by the team as a replacement, remained in custody on Tuesday, according to report by Le Parisien.

In his statement, Quintana stressed that the French authorities had not accused him of anything and noted that he and his brother attended the interview on a voluntary basis.

"I would also like to clear up a misunderstanding: neither during the recent Tour, nor during any other previous race, I have never consulted assistants or staff who were not part of the team. I do not have, and have never had, anything to hide," Quintana wrote.

Nairo Quintana: I don't have anything to hide

Colombian says no doping substances were found during Arkéa-Samsic Tour de France raid

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Number37]

Quintana's put out a statement saying that they were only legal "vitamin supplements" that were seized in the raid

Nairo Quintana: I don't have anything to hide

Colombian says no doping substances were found during Arkéa-Samsic Tour de France raid

www.cyclingnews.com

You would think that the UCI would be duty bound to kick him off the tour if anything suss had been found, that he was allowed to continue backs up his story.

 

[owen87]

I thought the JV guys apart from WVA all looked pretty sore, they all struggled to stand on the pedals with quad tightness which makes it very hard to generate cadence and power. Robbie McEwen spoke about Pogi still having puppy fat because his legs aren't full developed at 21. It think this ended up working in his favour. And he has been smashing climbing records for over 12 months now. Last year's Tour of California is a prime example.

At 21 your engine for an event like that isn't anywhere near fully developed, I don't think JV rode a particularly smart race, but Pogacar having puppy fat isn't the reason he won the TDF.

 

[bing181]

... albeit using drugs which have so far proven undetectable.

Yeah, bummer when the facts don't fit your conspiracy theories.

 

[Vader]

Yeah, bummer when the facts don't fit your conspiracy theories.

Lance Armstrong never tested positive either, or so he famously bragged. A lack of positive tests does not mean that a rider is clean. Far from it.

With the professionalism of UK Postal, and the scientific advantages of having access to the Team GB doping cabinet, I would be shocked if Froome/Wiggins/Thomas ever tested positive. The fact that Dr Richard Freeman got sprung for carrying the jiffy bag was a massive shock - I never thought they would be so careless. They certainly weren't that careless when it came to the actual riders.

If you actually think that they're clean, then you're a fool.

 

[Orange Agent]

At 21 your engine for an event like that isn't anywhere near fully developed, I don't think JV rode a particularly smart race, but Pogacar having puppy fat isn't the reason he won the TDF.

UAE performance director compares Pogačar to five-time Tour champion Indurain

Tour de France winner Tadej Pogačar already has the mental and physical makeup of a championship cyclist at such a young age, according to UAE Team Emirates' performance director Íñigo San Millan.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[owen87]

UAE performance director compares Pogačar to five-time Tour champion Indurain

Tour de France winner Tadej Pogačar already has the mental and physical makeup of a championship cyclist at such a young age, according to UAE Team Emirates' performance director Íñigo San Millan.

www.sbs.com.au

Indurain isn’t exactly the model of clean sport unfortunately

 

[Number37]

Indurain isn’t exactly the model of clean sport unfortunately

Which athlete is a model of clean sport?

I find it hard to believe that any athlete hasn't doped, particularly when they have beaten athletes who dope.
All of the sports science is geared towards getting as close to the boundary as possible.

We tend to be a little more forgiving of our favourite athletes.
A good example is SK Warne. He doped. Gave the usual excuse...wasn't me, was an accident, if I'd known then I would have done things differently.

 

[Orange Agent]

Indurain isn’t exactly the model of clean sport unfortunately

I raised the issue of muscle soreness by the JV guys as opposed to Pogacar. This article explains why Pogacar was still fresh for the TT and some others were not. In my experience mito training 100% works to avoid/reduce fatigue.

 

[owen87]

Which athlete is a model of clean sport?

I find it hard to believe that any athlete hasn't doped, particularly when they have beaten athletes who dope.
All of the sports science is geared towards getting as close to the boundary as possible.

We tend to be a little more forgiving of our favourite athletes.
A good example is SK Warne. He doped. Gave the usual excuse...wasn't me, was an accident, if I'd known then I would have done things differently.

Some sports certainly lend themselves to being more obvious with doping than others, cycling for example, particularly on climbs, generally the biggest engine wins. Soccer, or AFL requires other skills that aren't necessarily as obviously benefitted by doping - though clearly having a bigger engine, stronger muscles, or quicker recovery is going to be beneficial to them also.

Cycling has the unfortunate reputation as being dirty because there's been some massively public doping busts of high profile athletes, and they now test more than many other sports. Tennis barely bothers for example, whilst NFL or MLB players have to just about be caught with a needle hanging out of their arm to even consider getting done.

I raised the issue of muscle soreness by the JV guys as opposed to Pogacar. This article explains why Pogacar was still fresh for the TT and some others were not. In my experience mito training 100% works to avoid/reduce fatigue.

I would take any comments regarding physiological attributes with a grain of salt;

What is Lance Armstrong's secret?

Is the Tour de France winner endowed with a supreme athletic physiology by a genetic freak? Or does he just work harder than the rest?

www.theguardian.com

 

[Number37]

I raised the issue of muscle soreness by the JV guys as opposed to Pogacar. This article explains why Pogacar was still fresh for the TT and some others were not. In my experience mito training 100% works to avoid/reduce fatigue.

There has been some studies done on recovery which would suggest Pog wouldn't recover any faster than his competitors.


A recent study, published in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research in 2017, looked at this issue. In the study, two groups of subjects did knee extensions and eccentric knee flexions, completing 8 to 10 repetitions. One group was between the ages of 18 and 30 while the second group was 40 to 59 years of age.

Once the workouts were over, the researchers measured markers of muscle damage, muscle thickness of the muscles worked via ultrasound, isometric and isokinetic torque, and muscle soreness. The results? There was really no difference between the two groups in terms of maximum isometric torque or peak isokinetic torque at 2 hours, 24 hours, and 48 hours after the workout. Both groups experienced muscle soreness and an increase in markers of muscle damage, but the increase was similar in both groups.

This study suggests that middle-aged and younger participants respond similarly to resistance training and the exercise recovery time process proceeds at the same rate.

Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 31(12): 3454-3462.Berkeley University of California. “Do Older People Need Longer to Recover from Exercise?”

https://cathe.com/really-need-exercise-recovery-time-age/