Outweighed

[Gaborone]

Earlier in the year I heard a stat that really staggered me. Despite the fact that the Hawthorn and Collingwood teams playing against each other were almost the same average height each Collingwood player was on average 4 kg heavier. I didn't check it out but remained in the memory bank

Tonight I thought that I would see how we stacked up against Geelong at last week's Qualifying Final - and this is what I found:

Cats Hawks

Brad Ottens 106 David Hale 102 -4
Trent West 104 Lance Franklin 102 -2
James Podsiadly 102 Max Bailey 101 -1
Tom Hawkins 101 Grant Birchall 93 -8
Josh Hunt 100 Josh Gibson 92 -8
Tom Lonergan 98 Luke Hodge 90 -8
Matthew Scarlett 94 Brent Guerra 90 -4
Cameron Ling 92 Jordan Lewis 90 -2
Harry Taylor 92 Shaun Burgoyne 88 -4
Corey Enright 91 R. Schoenmakers 86 -5
Paul Chapman 88 Brad Sewell 86 -2
James Kelly 88 B. Whitecross 85 -3
Jimmy Bartell 88 Thomas Murphy 85 -3
Andrew Mackie 87 Sam Mitchell 83 -4
Steve Johnson 87 Matt Suckling 82 -5
Joel Selwood 86 Michael Osborne 81 -5
Mitch Duncan 82 Liam Shiels 80 -2
Mathew Stokes 80 Cyril Rioli 80 -
David Wojcinski 80 Isaac Smith 77 -3
Travis Varcoe 80 Paul Puopolo 76 -4
Daniel Menzel 79 Luke Breust 76 -3
Allen Christensen 77 Chance Bateman 75 -2

Total Wt Kg Geelong 1982kgs Hawthorn 1900 kgs -82kg
Average Wt Kg 90.1kg 86.36 kg

Once again the difference is huge - and it helps explain the strengths Hawthorn plays to - keep possession - because in the crunches we are at a significant weight disadvantage.

What I find puzzling is why Hawthorn has not bulked up like Geelong and Collingwood (and West Coast, I believe, who have always had muscles on muscles).

 

[macdaddio]

Weight had nothing to do with our season or our 2008 flag, our weakness has nothing to do with weight it is a mental thing that we just can not beat the Cats not wieght...

 

[Harper_Hawk]

Weight had nothing to do with our season or our 2008 flag, our weakness has nothing to do with weight it is a mental thing that we just can not beat the Cats not wieght...

Can't have said it better.

The premiership win over them in 2008, they will never let us forget. Until we break this hoodoo they have over us, they will continue crushing our endeavours.

We have a chance to redeem ourselves on Friday. To lift our spirits again.

 

[RIOLIUSTAR]

Admire your research OP

But its not Rugby Union, where comparing pack weights which might hold some relevence.

Its more about the will for the contest and ability to sustain that will for 120 minutes and also taking opportunities when they arise.

We didn't do either hence we are playing this week

 

[QuietB]

I think that the OP is closer to the truth than they are given credit for. Hawks are a pack of short people compared to Geelong and we got rag dolled on Friday night - absolutely smashed in the air through brute strenngth.

Another way of looking at it is who since 2000 have been a small side? Bombers were huge, Brisbane were massive, Port maybe not so much, Sydney and Brisbane were both mature and big, Cats big, Pies big.

Size is part of the winning formula. Hawks were the exception, not the rule.

 

[Rabbitpig]

Weight had nothing to do with our season or our 2008 flag, our weakness has nothing to do with weight it is a mental thing that we just can not beat the Cats not wieght...

Sorry to disagree McDaddio, but this old wives tale that we are mentally fragile against the cats is just not true. I'd love for our losing streak against them to be something as abstract as a voodoo mental problem because we could overcome this far easier than Ottens and a well drilled tall forward line that feeds out on our undersized defense. They have been a better side than us, give them some credit.

I still think with a bit of tinkering to our structures, and a committed effort, that we're every chance of knocking them off if we make it to the big one.

 

[spudmaster]

He has a point - last time we beat the cats, we had Stewie Dew

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Weight had nothing to do with our season or our 2008 flag, our weakness has nothing to do with weight it is a mental thing that we just can not beat the Cats not wieght...

Not so sure it is that simple. They were visibly bigger and stronger, that means our only option is to outrun them and avoid one on one contests.

It is too late for this year but it would not hurt us to bulk up a few of the guys.

 

[Agent Smith]

It is too late for this year but it would not hurt us to bulk up a few of the guys.

Worked well for Buddy and Hodgie from memory.

Oh wait...

 

[savagelunchbox]

Earlier in the year I heard a stat that really staggered me. Despite the fact that the Hawthorn and Collingwood teams playing against each other were almost the same average height each Collingwood player was on average 4 kg heavier. I didn't check it out but remained in the memory bank

Tonight I thought that I would see how we stacked up against Geelong at last week's Qualifying Final - and this is what I found:

Cats Hawks

Brad Ottens 106 David Hale 102 -4
Trent West 104 Lance Franklin 102 -2
James Podsiadly 102 Max Bailey 101 -1
Tom Hawkins 101 Grant Birchall 93 -8
Josh Hunt 100 Josh Gibson 92 -8
Tom Lonergan 98 Luke Hodge 90 -8
Matthew Scarlett 94 Brent Guerra 90 -4
Cameron Ling 92 Jordan Lewis 90 -2
Harry Taylor 92 Shaun Burgoyne 88 -4
Corey Enright 91 R. Schoenmakers 86 -5
Paul Chapman 88 Brad Sewell 86 -2
James Kelly 88 B. Whitecross 85 -3
Jimmy Bartell 88 Thomas Murphy 85 -3
Andrew Mackie 87 Sam Mitchell 83 -4
Steve Johnson 87 Matt Suckling 82 -5
Joel Selwood 86 Michael Osborne 81 -5
Mitch Duncan 82 Liam Shiels 80 -2
Mathew Stokes 80 Cyril Rioli 80 -
David Wojcinski 80 Isaac Smith 77 -3
Travis Varcoe 80 Paul Puopolo 76 -4
Daniel Menzel 79 Luke Breust 76 -3
Allen Christensen 77 Chance Bateman 75 -2

Total Wt Kg Geelong 1982kgs Hawthorn 1900 kgs -82kg
Average Wt Kg 90.1kg 86.36 kg

Once again the difference is huge - and it helps explain the strengths Hawthorn plays to - keep possession - because in the crunches we are at a significant weight disadvantage.

What I find puzzling is why Hawthorn has not bulked up like Geelong and Collingwood (and West Coast, I believe, who have always had muscles on muscles).

By your theory, a team full of 100+kg ruckman would be unbeatable against a team of the elite skilled players <190cm?

By your theory, a team full of fat losers (approx. 170cm, 120kg) would be better then the physically fittest, best-tuned football team in the world?

Weight really only factors in when it's ruckman vs. ruckman around the ground or stay-at-home forward vs. their defender. Basically the matchups where it's body on body, wrestling with your opponent.
Yes size matters in the midfield, but you can get away with having some skinny mids if they're durable. e.g. Dyson Heppell

 

[Pessimistic]

More junk food shops in geelong.

I hear Chappy bitch slapped some girl who got between him and a 7 eleven....

On topic makes a wiry beanpole like M tuck winning seven premierships all the more creditable

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Worked well for Buddy and Hodgie from memory.

Oh wait...

Worked well for Hawkins, Mumford, Ottens, Pods, Cloke, Dawes

Oh wait - their teams won last week.

 

[WWSD]

T.Cloke 196cm 108kg L. Franklin 196cm 102kg
C.Dawes 193cm 105kg J.Roughead 193cm 100kg

Big difference between the teams two forwards. No doubt that being big like Cloke & Dawes can help out marking defenders plus it helps when taking a contested mark. But at the same time forwards now a days cover a lot of ground and run all game. So Franklin & Roughead are more athletic type forwards then Cloke & Dawes. It's not good being to bulky. Look at Franklin highlights in 2008. He was skinny & athletic. No a days he can barely side step run and jump at the footy. Better if they stay the way they are.

 

[burner1]

I think its interesting if you compare it in matchups where size/strength will be important

Geelong played 2 power forwards and rotated both rucks forward (vs our 3 tall defenders):

Brad Ottens 106 Grant Birchall 93
Trent West 104 Josh Gibson 92
James Podsiadly 102 Schoenmakers 86
Tom Hawkins 101

Just shows how much shoey was fighting out his weight division - that he got outbodied when left one out vs players 15-20kgs heavier and facing mountain of unpressured ball into the fwd line (that was kicked on his head rather than to a lead) is not a great surprise

Then compare our forward line:

Talls:
Tom Lonergan 98 Lance Franklin 102
Matthew Scarlett 94 David Hale 102
Harry Taylor 92 [ ]?

Mid-size marking targets:
Josh Hunt 100 Whitecross 85
Corey Enright 91 Michael Osborne 81
Andrew Mackie 87 Cyril Rioli 80

Pretty clear that once bailey went off and hale was forced into ruck that there's no way our fwd line would have a chance aerially if we bombed the ball in (which is all we did) - geelong defenders just too big and tall.

The inside midfields match up relatively well - but geelong just smashed us which meant they could play the game on their terms and could exploit our weaknesses.

We can beat them but we have to control the pill - let us spread their defence and utilise our small fwds (if ball is always bombed in and doesn't hit ground not much use playing 3+ smalls) and set up our structures down back so we can get 3rd man up to bring ball to ground and then rebound with our superior footskills.

If we can't set up our structure going forward/get control of the pill and have to bomb the ball in forward and our back 6 is exposed one-out with quick ball we will seriosuly struggle more than the other top 4 sides. They all have the opposite to us - big power forwards and strong marking defenders.

 

[Gaborone]

By your theory, a team full of 100+kg ruckman would be unbeatable against a team of the elite skilled players <190cm?

By your theory, a team full of fat losers (approx. 170cm, 120kg) would be better then the physically fittest, best-tuned football team in the world?

Weight really only factors in when it's ruckman vs. ruckman around the ground or stay-at-home forward vs. their defender. Basically the matchups where it's body on body, wrestling with your opponent.
Yes size matters in the midfield, but you can get away with having some skinny mids if they're durable. e.g. Dyson Heppell

There is a difference between an observation and a theory. I have provided an observation. I am happy for you to explain or ignore it.

 

[macdaddio]

Not so sure it is that simple. They were visibly bigger and stronger, that means our only option is to outrun them and avoid one on one contests.

It is too late for this year but it would not hurt us to bulk up a few of the guys.

Round 12 we had them on toast, we still had the same side apart from Ruff and maybe Renouf and they ran over top of us. Sure they are bigger, but in every game we have played since 2008 GF they have beaten us and no one can tell me that in every game that the only reason that they keep beating us is because of their size??

 

[Gaborone]

Round 12 we had them on toast, we still had the same side apart from Ruff and maybe Renouf and they ran over top of us. Sure they are bigger, but in every game we have played since 2008 GF they have beaten us and no one can tell me that in every game that the only reason that they keep beating us is because of their size??

That is not what is being said. Each team has its advantages and Geelong is obviously a heavier team than Hawthorn. That is an advantage in the crunches - and their big man dept monstered us on Friday night (to quote another poster). If possible we need to negate the advantages other teams hold over us. The first step is not to be afraid to identify them.

 

[Adebisi]

I am nowhere near convinced that buddy and hodge 'bulking up' was a problem. To be honest i saw no real difference apart from them looking fatter....certainly didn't look like functional muscle increase in their weight.

Burge and Russel come from running/athletic backgrounds....neither would be the first strength coaches you would go to on adding lean muscle mass when talking afl circles

 

[lamaros]

Now that Bomber is back at Essendon all he seems to talk about is how much he wants to fatten most of our players up, so it certainly seems like he would agree with the OP. As a two time premiership coach you would probably give his opinion a bit of attention.

There's no ignoring the fact that bigger players have an advantage in contested situations and in avoiding tackles. It's no surprise to learn that a pacey player like Ablett is far better at breaking tackles than a pacey player like Winderlich. When you are 6cm shorter and weigh 4kg more you have a lot more body strength to work with.

And as can be seen from players like Ablett and Wojo and such, just because you are heavier doesn't mean you have to lose mobility or pace. There are no real disadvantages.

However the OP hasn't taken height in to account. A taller team will obviously weigh more than a shorter one, and Geelong did seem to have a bit of height on you as well. You do have a few younger guys who can probably add a bit of size, but players like Hodge and Mitchell, Lewis and Sewell are already solid enough. Weight isn't an issue there.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Now that Bomber is back at Essendon all he seems to talk about is how much he wants to fatten most of our players up, so it certainly seems like he would agree with the OP. As a two time premiership coach you would probably give his opinion a bit of attention.

There's no ignoring the fact that bigger players have an advantage in contested situations and in avoiding tackles. It's no surprise to learn that a pacey player like Ablett is far better at breaking tackles than a pacey player like Winderlich. When you are 6cm shorter and weigh 4kg more you have a lot more body strength to work with.

And as can be seen from players like Ablett and Wojo and such, just because you are heavier doesn't mean you have to lose mobility or pace. There are no real disadvantages.

However the OP hasn't taken height in to account. A taller team will obviously weigh more than a shorter one, and Geelong did seem to have a bit of height on you as well. You do have a few younger guys who can probably add a bit of size, but players like Hodge and Mitchell, Lewis and Sewell are already solid enough. Weight isn't an issue there.

That was all that you needed to say. Basically sums up what everyone has been saying.

 

[Harper_Hawk]

That was all that you needed to say. Basically sums up what everyone has been saying.

From what I saw, their midfielders were quicker to respond to ottens taps at the centre bounces than ours. We looked asleep in that dept..I sat behind the goals punt road end on ground level and watched how the ball came in. Yes they're heavier and taller. But our midfielders match theirs I believe. We just weren't first to the ball. Being first a lot of things can happen. You can get pinged, draw a tackle, draw a free, kick or handball. But you still have control of the ball.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

I always thought it was the horizontal stripes on Geelong's jumper that made them look fat.

 

[jpzhawk]

weight definatly plays a part . its not the whole reason , but it is without doubt a contributing factor . i have also wondered why we havent bulked up a bit . not everyone , but certainly the ones we need to .
working as a team to structures , game plans and having great skills are all factors but if we keep getting bullied off the ball in the clinches , or one on one contests by stronger bodies , we dont have the ball to use . simple . we cant keep getting away with playing a keepings off brand . need to be ruthless , agressive , tough , hard , skilled , have a gut full of mojo and be able to run run run in waves . this is what gave us the golden years .
perhaps it would be an interesting experiment to compare weights of teams like our current group , the 2008 group and say the teams from 1983 and 1988/89 .

 

[CleanRightBoot]

Great to see a post thinking the same way I was after watching Friday night's game. Weight is not the only factor but the side we put on the park lacked physical presence in those one on one body contests. We have plenty of grunt (Sewell, Hodge, Lewis Shiels etc) but those missing from our 2008 GF side last Friday night were solid ; Robbie Campbell, Stewie Dew, Trent Croad and the big Roughnut.

All of these 4 were crucial in negating any physical advantage our opponents may have had.

Agree with the some of the other posts that our game plan is NOT built around big solid bodies and this is obvious when we pressure in the midfield then outkick/outrun our opponents.

For this week I'd love to Big Max and Hale throw their big frames around in the middle/stoppages a bit more and perhaps Savage to come in to boost our speed/running on the spread.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Round 12 we had them on toast, we still had the same side apart from Ruff and maybe Renouf and they ran over top of us....

We play our best footy against the handbags. The last few times, even when we have been playing poorly we have lifted. Crap results but they have been great games to watch.

Maybe we lift a cog and simply run out of tickets.