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Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
Sep 5, 2014
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Any company able to service debt in the manner that United are able to wouldn't be fazed by their debt level.
The principle of debt being fine in principle is absolutely fine. Debt being used to fund growth or infrastructure is good. Using debt to pay dividends and consultancy fees for 17 years is not.
 

Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
Sep 5, 2014
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If the debt solely came from them buying the club it's hardly grown under their reign?

If the growth in the debt was investment in players which supporters cried out for, then is that their fault?
£650M at takeover. £1B+ now. Under £100M of the total debt has been used to fund player purchases.
 

SM

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£650M at takeover. £1B+ now. Under £100M of the total debt has been used to fund player purchases.

I don't quite know how you can apportion the debt in that manner. They've spent huge amounts on players while owners of the club. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have needed to fund dividends with debt, so the debt is either directly or indirectly a result of their investment in the squad. It's hard to believe any claim that there has been an underinvestment in the United playing squad under the Glazers.

Leveraged buyout aside (and plenty of other clubs have gone down this avenue too so it's not a demonic Glazer strategy), the only criticism that can be levelled at their spending is the lack of investment in infrastructure, but I just think taking a "Debt is big reeee" attitude to the club is overly simplistic.
 

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Elmer_Judd

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Didn't Old Trafford used to be consider one of the prime (financial) assets of MUFC (least before the Glazers took over and neglected it)

It's hosted test cricket (Ashes) football and rugby finals, speaking as an outside with no love for the Red Devils, how the Glazers have run one of the most historic and famous stadiums not just in the UK but the world is shameful.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
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Didn't Old Trafford used to be consider one of the prime (financial) assets of MUFC (least before the Glazers took over and neglected it)

It's hosted test cricket (Ashes) football and rugby finals, speaking as an outside with no love for the Red Devils, how the Glazers have run one of the most historic and famous stadiums not just in the UK but the world is shameful.

Old Trafford has never hosted cricket lmao.. That's an entirely separate ground. Think through why it might never have hosted cricket.
 

Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
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I don't quite know how you can apportion the debt in that manner. They've spent huge amounts on players while owners of the club. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have needed to fund dividends with debt, so the debt is either directly or indirectly a result of their investment in the squad. It's hard to believe any claim that there has been an underinvestment in the United playing squad under the Glazers.

Leveraged buyout aside (and plenty of other clubs have gone down this avenue too so it's not a demonic Glazer strategy), the only criticism that can be levelled at their spending is the lack of investment in infrastructure, but I just think taking a "Debt is big reeee" attitude to the club is overly simplistic.
It is quite simple really. Until the summer transfer window player purchases were made with funds generated by the club. Last summer the Glazers arranged a £150m facility with Santander and emptied it to pay themselves dividends, consultancy fees and buy Casemiro. That was additional debt loaded onto the club.

That answers your first line. The rest of it is about stuff I haven't discussed nor believe in. I enjoyed your reference to 'their spending'. They haven't spent anything.
 

Elmer_Judd

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Old Trafford has never hosted cricket lmao.. That's an entirely separate ground. Think through why it might never have hosted cricket.

Well okay, it's an easy mistake to make though :)
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
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It is quite simple really. Until the summer transfer window player purchases were made with funds generated by the club. Last summer the Glazers arranged a £150m facility with Santander and emptied it to pay themselves dividends, consultancy fees and buy Casemiro. That was additional debt loaded onto the club.

That answers your first line. The rest of it is about stuff I haven't discussed nor believe in. I enjoyed your reference to 'their spending'. They haven't spent anything.

I suppose my point is that if they hadn't bought those players, the funds generated by the club would have been paid as a dividend to the owners and they wouldn't have needed the facility with Santander, that's all.

They own the club, the club funds constitute their spending. Yes they haven't invested their own money into the club, but again plenty of club owners don't.

I'm not trying to argue they're amazing owners, but the crying poor from United fans purely because of the debt levels while United continue to challenge for and pick up some of the biggest trophies in the game is a bit over the top. It's like Arsenal fans pulling their hair out over their owners a few years ago while they 'only' finished 4th and are now back challenging for the league under those same owners.
 

RPCB

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The decrepit toilet Old Trafford and the Cricket ground Old Trafford are different.
 

Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
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I suppose my point is that if they hadn't bought those players, the funds generated by the club would have been paid as a dividend to the owners and they wouldn't have needed the facility with Santander, that's all.

They own the club, the club funds constitute their spending. Yes they haven't invested their own money into the club, but again plenty of club owners don't.

I'm not trying to argue they're amazing owners, but the crying poor from United fans purely because of the debt levels while United continue to challenge for and pick up some of the biggest trophies in the game is a bit over the top. It's like Arsenal fans pulling their hair out over their owners a few years ago while they 'only' finished 4th and are now back challenging for the league under those same owners.
Yes they have grossly mismanaged the club which has resulted in them having to further leverage the club in order to pay themselves.

United don't need owners to put their own money in. Only an idiot could * up like the Epstein lovers could.

Who is crying poor. Can United fans not be concerned about the worsening financial state of the club? When was the last time United challenged for or picked up a major trophy? The club is being sold because there is no money left. Look at the annual report. It doesn't need an accountant to work it out.
 

SM

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Yes they have grossly mismanaged the club which has resulted in them having to further leverage the club in order to pay themselves.

United don't need owners to put their own money in. Only an idiot could * up like the Epstein lovers could.

Who is crying poor. Can United fans not be concerned about the worsening financial state of the club? When was the last time United challenged for or picked up a major trophy? The club is being sold because there is no money left. Look at the annual report. It doesn't need an accountant to work it out.

You won the Europa League only a few years ago didn't you? It's not a top line trophy but I'd put it on par or ahead of something like the League Cup.

Crying poor in terms of complaining about the debt I suppose is what I meant. My impression was the club was being sold for the same reason Liverpool was, but maybe that's wrong. Seemed to be Keiren Maguire's opinion and he is an accountant.

Guess end of the day I'll never understand the mentality of big club supporters, as I've said in the Arsenal thread previously. United are not in some perilous position, they're fine. Yes a new owner may come in with more ambition and that will be great for you. But in terms of money spent on players you're 'competitive' with City, Liverpool etc. it's just being spent terribly.
 
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Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
Sep 5, 2014
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You won the Europa League only a few years ago didn't you? It's not a top line trophy but I'd put it on par or ahead of something like the League Cup.

Crying poor in terms of complaining about the debt I suppose is what I meant. My impression was the club was being sold for the same reason Liverpool was, but maybe that's wrong. Seemed to be Keiren Maguire's opinion and he is an accountant.

Guess end of the day I'll never understand the mentality of big club supporters, as I've said in the Arsenal thread previously. United are not in some perilous position, they're fine. Yes a new owner may come in with more ambition and that will be great for you. But in terms of money spent on players you're 'competitive' with City, Liverpool etc. it's just being spent terribly.
So not competing for major trophies then.

Where has Maguire expressed that opinion? I've seen the opposite. Again you are confusing crying poor with being very worried.

If you read the financials you'd come to a different conclusion. No s**t the money has been spent terribly. United fans have been complaining about Woodward and Joel Glazer running a ridiculous transfer strategy since 2005 ffs.
 

SM

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So not competing for major trophies then.

Where has Maguire expressed that opinion? I've seen the opposite. Again you are confusing crying poor with being very worried.

If you read the financials you'd come to a different conclusion. No s**t the money has been spent terribly. United fans have been complaining about Woodward and Joel Glazer running a ridiculous transfer strategy since 2005 ffs.

Price of Football podcast when discussing the motivations for Glazers to sell he suggested it was likely that they were getting out for top dollar in the same manner that Liverpool's owners are looking to sell. Plus the unpopularity with the fans doesn't help, but it hasn't prevented them owning the club for the last decade post-Fergie.

It's fine, like I said if you get new ambitious owners, all power to you, and I'm never going to argue that clubs don't deserve owners with their best interests at heart, but this discussion started because I thought the point about the United debt levels was a bit of an overreaction, that's all.
 

Bojan KantKick

Man United Legacy Supporter
Sep 5, 2014
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Price of Football podcast when discussing the motivations for Glazers to sell he suggested it was likely that they were getting out for top dollar in the same manner that Liverpool's owners are looking to sell. Plus the unpopularity with the fans doesn't help, but it hasn't prevented them owning the club for the last decade post-Fergie.

It's fine, like I said if you get new ambitious owners, all power to you, and I'm never going to argue that clubs don't deserve owners with their best interests at heart, but this discussion started because I thought the point about the United debt levels was a bit of an overreaction, that's all.
Yeah I'm fine with debt in principle being used to fund asset purchases, growth and infrastructure investment with a sound long term strategy of repayment.

I recall listening to a podcast with Maguire after the clubs financials were published where he essentially agreed that the clubs financial position had forced the Glazers hand. They will be getting top dollar and getting access to the whole market of prospective buyers ahead of Liverpool is a sound move. The Glazers couldn't give a s**t about the fans.
 

Jatz

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Wasn’t expecting that.

Not familiar with the Hammers ownership structure, where to from here? Is Sullivan still involved?
 

Bradesmaen

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Wasn’t expecting that.

Not familiar with the Hammers ownership structure, where to from here? Is Sullivan still involved?
Joint Chairman with Sullivan. Assume his stake will go to his first daughter as she's the CEO of companies that were under his ownership.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
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Haven't they basically sold the club but are waiting for the stadium option to lapse?
 

Zidane98

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Making all coaches to away games free for supporters for the remainder of the season. What a guy. Some owners really do walk the walk not just talk the talk.


Send him a DM. He might just fly you over to the next Hull game.
 

Zidane98

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Chinese owners are bad news these days. Xi used to look after his billionaire mates who invested in football. Now it is no longer his pet interest. China league stuffed. Xi obsessed with zero covid these days. Even Citehs Chinese shareholder looking to get out.
 

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