Discussion Paddy v Petracca

[Winmar2Lockett]

But poor drafting has cost us 8 years without playing in a final. Ball might have cost us a premiership but at least the drafting around him was excellent.

Ya reckon taking CP over PM would have got us into the finals over the past 5 seasons?

Poor drafting in the era that we were playing final is what has cost us for the past 8 years.


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[Winmar2Lockett]

He wasn't THAT highly rated though. As was said in an article someone else linked earlier some recruiters had him around 5. He was very clearly not a pick 1. And as I've already said several times I'm not just criticising the pick because it was paddy. I'm criticising the pick because pick 1 should be used on the best player in the draft not to fill list needs. Pick 1 should be used on a player who doesn't have latent health issues and question marks over their capacity to transition from TAC to AFL. It was the wrong call not just because Paddy was a bust but because using pick 1 on a KPF purely because they're a KPF when they clearly weren't the best player in the draft was the wrong decision. I said so beforehand, I said so at the time and I've said so ever since.

And as I've already responded to but you might've missed. This assertion that KPFs are so ridiculously expensive is wrong. Boyd is the only one who's gone really anywhere near that much but every year a marquee midfielder gets traded for more. You keep saying the decision was "most definitely justified" but I don't agree. I don't think it was justified and saying "they got spooked by how much Boyd went for" isn't a satisfactory defence. If our list management team didn't have the foresight to understand that the bulldogs overpaid astronomically for an essentially unproven KPF and that it wouldn't be a norm then that's yet another indictment on their capacity to perform their jobs not a reason to take Paddy at 1. It's a poor defence and frankly I'm just getting a bit tired of seeing the same thing written over and over.



Hodge was a triple premiership winning captain who played more games and is one of the most respected leaders football has ever seen. If you can't admit that there's even an argument there for him being better than Judd then that's on you. My point wasn't that they were all the best players in their draft, but that all of those pick 1s at least were in the conversation, if they weren't the best they're top 5. (Also just quietly Weitering is outperforming Gresh).

Petracca isn't the best in the comp this year, but he's pretty close. And yeah a pretty hohum draft that also had Moore, Heeney, De Goey, Weller, Lever, Steele, McLean, Miller etc. It was an average draft.

I'm pretty much done on this topic I didn't really intend to start a 13 page thread but at the end of the day I'm less annoyed that it was Paddy in particular and more annoyed that our recruiters took a player at pick 1 who wasn't the best prospect in the draft. I've never been a fan of picking for needs but I understand it with picks in the 40s. Not pick 1 though.

A total re-writing of history.

Didn’t you post the other day that Paddy was the #1 pick in the opinion of at least 2 other clubs?

Our needs at the time where... well everything. Except for a half fwd-mid who we’d taken at pick 3 the year before. We’d also taken 2 other mids in 2013 & had a few under performing young blokes like Ross & Newnes that the hoped would become FT midfielders.

Compare that to who we had behind Roo at the time... Tom Lee & Beau Wilkes!

And you may have intentionally forgotten this but the CP had the same question marks over him that Paddy did. Man playing v boys, etc.

plus the query would he be able to become a full time mid due to an average work ethic.


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[Winmar2Lockett]

Prob well documented but we ended up doing okay out of the 2014 draft:

- Steele
- Howard
- Butler
- Austin

Much better draft haul than:
- McCartin
- Goddard
- McKenzie
- Lonie

I wouldn’t trade Steele for Petracca either.

Marshall as a rookie too


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[George]

That's a lot of text and I can't really respond to all of it. So I'll do the main 2. Firstly I thought Paddy would be a bust before the draft because the reason he was so dominant in TAC was his weight advantage. I had a strong feeling he'd struggle to move that to the afl given zone defence is banned in TAC and he'd be against better defenders who were taller, faster, just as heavy and much smarter than him. I don't think he ever showed any real forward craft in TAC he just pushed people off the ball. He was unable to protect the drop of the ball, poorly timed his leads and tended to look gassed by half time. All this on top of being diabetic, short for a KPP and slow. With all that in mind it leads me to my second point.

Gun midfielders are more important than any other position on the ground. Games are won and lost from the middle and it's one of the reasons Geelong has been dominant for so long despite Hawkins being fairly average through a lot of his career with the odd purple patch and why Collingwood have been high the last few years despite Mason Cox being the "best" KPF they have. So to answer your last question, because we wouldn't have needed to spend out the nose for the best KPF in the AFL. We could've looked literally anywhere else to find a half decent KPF. VFL, later picks, rookie picks, reformed defenders, GWS/GC. And again you still haven't addressed my main point. Where is this precedent that was set by Boyd? Why haven't any other clubs forked up a mil a year for KPF since and yet they do the same thing every year for gun mids? The game revolves around midfielders so actually I'd rather have drafted the best one available, traded for midfielders too and made the forward line work with whatever was leftover.

Finally any comparison between King and Paddy is laughable but for what it's worth I still wanted Rozee or Smith in 2018.

All good happy to agree to disagree.

 

[gringo2011]

Ya reckon taking CP over PM would have got us into the finals over the past 5 seasons?

Poor drafting in the era that we were playing final is what has cost us for the past 8 years.


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Not alone but it was the most symbolic of drafts as to why we were where we were. I think that was probably the one that did Trout in. The others there was at least something to salvage out of the draft period. That one just shat everywhere from what was a pretty enviable position to start from.

 

[Crusty Undies]

A total re-writing of history.

Didn’t you post the other day that Paddy was the #1 pick in the opinion of at least 2 other clubs?

Our needs at the time where... well everything. Except for a half fwd-mid who we’d taken at pick 3 the year before. We’d also taken 2 other mids in 2013 & had a few under performing young blokes like Ross & Newnes that the hoped would become FT midfielders.

Compare that to who we had behind Roo at the time... Tom Lee & Beau Wilkes!

And you may have intentionally forgotten this but the CP had the same question marks over him that Paddy did. Man playing v boys, etc.

plus the query would he be able to become a full time mid due to an average work ethic.


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Yeh. 2. The other 15 had him lower than 1. You're the one rewriting history saying they were roughly equally rated. The general consensus was Petracca was better but that we might take Paddy because we were looking to replace Roo. Show me a general consensus that they were equally rated.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A total re-writing of history.

Didn’t you post the other day that Paddy was the #1 pick in the opinion of at least 2 other clubs?

Our needs at the time where... well everything. Except for a half fwd-mid who we’d taken at pick 3 the year before. We’d also taken 2 other mids in 2013 & had a few under performing young blokes like Ross & Newnes that the hoped would become FT midfielders.

Compare that to who we had behind Roo at the time... Tom Lee & Beau Wilkes!

And you may have intentionally forgotten this but the CP had the same question marks over him that Paddy did. Man playing v boys, etc.

plus the query would he be able to become a full time mid due to an average work ethic.


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I actually wanted us to take 2 m Peter.



( which would be better, but not as good as ).

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Prob well documented but we ended up doing okay out of the 2014 draft:

- Steele
- Howard
- Butler
- Austin

Much better draft haul than:
- McCartin
- Goddard
- McKenzie
- Lonie

I wouldn’t trade Steele for Petracca either.

exactly ... we know that draft failed for us big time .. so we traded in the players we should have got in that draft ... end result is where we are now and im not exactly unhappy with the team we have built ..

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

A total re-writing of history.

Didn’t you post the other day that Paddy was the #1 pick in the opinion of at least 2 other clubs?

Our needs at the time where... well everything. Except for a half fwd-mid who we’d taken at pick 3 the year before. We’d also taken 2 other mids in 2013 & had a few under performing young blokes like Ross & Newnes that the hoped would become FT midfielders.

Compare that to who we had behind Roo at the time... Tom Lee & Beau Wilkes!

And you may have intentionally forgotten this but the CP had the same question marks over him that Paddy did. Man playing v boys, etc.

plus the query would he be able to become a full time mid due to an average work ethic.


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exactly this ....
attitude was a huge concern and lets be honest had tractor followed the same path that he has at Melbourne we would have lost it with him under the Richo era and chances are the tractor we see today with Melb may never have materialised ...
in the end im more confident with us being closer to flag # 2 today without Tractor and failing with paddy than i envision we would be with Tractor

 

[plugger66]

exactly this ....
attitude was a huge concern and lets be honest had tractor followed the same path that he has at Melbourne we would have lost it with him under the Richo era and chances are the tractor we see today with Melb may never have materialised ...
in the end im more confident with us being closer to flag # 2 today without Tractor and failing with paddy than i envision we would be with Tractor

Surely we can only go on current form and not guess how petracca could have ended up under richo. Now I’m going to guess and say if petracca was playing for us in his current form we would be on top of the ladder. Might sound like a huge call but I reckon he is better than a goal a game than the player playing instead of him. He is the exact player we need now. He is the player you would build for us if we could. Having said all that who cares. We picked who we picked and it was a mistake just as Marshall recruitment was amazing.

 

[Present Not Past]

Has anyone considered that had Paddy been playing under a different club/coach to Richo he might have had a completely different future to what we handed him?

 

[lewdogs]

Surely we can only go on current form and not guess how petracca could have ended up under richo. Now I’m going to guess and say if petracca was playing for us in his current form we would be on top of the ladder. Might sound like a huge call but I reckon he is better than a goal a game than the player playing instead of him. He is the exact player we need now. He is the player you would build for us if we could. Having said all that who cares. We picked who we picked and it was a mistake just as Marshall recruitment was amazing.

Marshall for a rookie pick is so insanely good. Honestly I'm mind-blown at how good that pick has turned out.

 

[plugger66]

Has anyone considered that had Paddy been playing under a different club/coach to Richo he might have had a completely different future to what we handed him?

No

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Surely we can only go on current form and not guess how petracca could have ended up under richo. Now I’m going to guess and say if petracca was playing for us in his current form we would be on top of the ladder. Might sound like a huge call but I reckon he is better than a goal a game than the player playing instead of him. He is the exact player we need now. He is the player you would build for us if we could. Having said all that who cares. We picked who we picked and it was a mistake just as Marshall recruitment was amazing.

sure but looking who he would have been behind ... could you see Richo picking him over Seb Ross ? or over Koby Steven early on, or even Luke Dunstan? factoring in the attitude issue early in his career ...
my point being having him in our team now that would be great but its a fair chance had we got him we wouldnt have gone for Steele in the trade.. again its all just guesses as we will never know what could have happend but where we are right now im content that the mistakes we made are not as dire as some people would make them out to be ..

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Has anyone considered that had Paddy been playing under a different club/coach to Richo he might have had a completely different future to what we handed him?

butterfly effect sure anything could have happened but i dont think Richo or St Kilda persay killed paddys career .. unfortunatly the way paddy played is going to lend itself to head clashes .. i guess in a differant era they would have kept playing him and he would have been ok but in this era knowing what we know about concussion and the impact later in life i think regardless of who called his name on draft night was going to face the same issue

 

[plugger66]

sure but looking who he would have been behind ... could you see Richo picking him over Seb Ross ? or over Koby Steven early on, or even Luke Dunstan? factoring in the attitude issue early in his career ...
my point being having him in our team now that would be great but its a fair chance had we got him we wouldnt have gone for Steele in the trade.. again its all just guesses as we will never know what could have happend but where we are right now im content that the mistakes we made are not as dire as some people would make them out to be ..

Yes you never know what would have happened regarding any player All I know is petracca has been a star this year and he is the player we would build if we could. We can spin it anyway we want but it was the wrong choice. Having said that it’s all over and as you said we may not have got a star player now. Just wish we had petracca. It’s swings and roundabouts though.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Marshall for a rookie pick is so insanely good. Honestly I'm mind-blown at how good that pick has turned out.

when you think about it we have done very well from the rookie list over the years .. although in the past we have been perhaps a little bit shy to make the call with the rookie list and in turn has hurt us a little ..
i know we were very much into Michael Barlow for a while and were really close to signing him as a rookie but we blinked and let Freo take him , we also had put the feelers out a year earlier with Tom Lee to pick up as a rookie but in the end blew a first round pick to trade him in from the GWS suplementry list ..
We were keen on Ben Long the year earlier than he was drafted and we went early the following year to grab him before the dogs did..
would have been nice if we got Lee and Long as rookies rather than using draft picks on them and taking Barlow would have been handy.. i think we are good at spotting that rough diamond but sometimes dont jump early enough

 

[SaintsSeptember]

when you think about it we have done very well from the rookie list over the years .. although in the past we have been perhaps a little bit shy to make the call with the rookie list and in turn has hurt us a little ..
i know we were very much into Michael Barlow for a while and were really close to signing him as a rookie but we blinked and let Freo take him , we also had put the feelers out a year earlier with Tom Lee to pick up as a rookie but in the end blew a first round pick to trade him in from the GWS suplementry list ..
We were keen on Ben Long the year earlier than he was drafted and we went early the following year to grab him before the dogs did..
would have been nice if we got Lee and Long as rookies rather than using draft picks on them and taking Barlow would have been handy.. i think we are good at spotting that rough diamond but sometimes dont jump early enough

Barlow had trained with StKilda the year before Freo took him.
He went undrafted when we were considering him.

When Lyon went to Freo , Barlow supposedly said to him " You didn't like me " .
Rumour was that Lyon didn't like his funny run.
So perhaps a Ross Lyon moment that cost us a premiership.