Pagans Paddock and Long Bomb Direct Footy

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Could come back to haunt Pagan. Isolate whoever is on Mick Martin inside 50m, and/or station a couple of big blokes up forward to be matched up by the likes of 185cm Glenn Manton and a young Livingston type.

Is the plan to have Kouta at CHB? with McKernan and Whitnall forward?
 
Not wanting to be pedantic, but the paddock is generally at the other end of the ground with extra forwards flooding to the midfield and the midfield flooding to the backline.

Well that was how I remeber it for 10 years. Could be wrong but.
 

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Originally posted by choppy
Not wanting to be pedantic, but the paddock is generally at the other end of the ground with extra forwards flooding to the midfield and the midfield flooding to the backline.

Well that was how I remeber it for 10 years. Could be wrong but.

To be even more pedantic, the Pagans Paddock only came into use during the 1998 season. Before that, Pagan would use 3 tall forwards with Carey and any two out of Longmire, Crocker, Roberts, Sholl etc. rotating through the forward area.

The Pagans Paddock was perfected in a game (ironically) against Carlton in 2001 at the MCG where the Roos forward line was totally vacant and.....well.....no-one has worked out what the point of it was, but the Paddock achieved its logical perfection that night.
 
Denis Pagan has been laughing for years at how the media label his gameplan with names such as "Pagans Padock"

Whilst there have been slight alterations, Pagans basic gameplan has remained much the same since he began at the Kangaroos in 1993. Back in '93 they had the most number of long kicks, least number of handballs, and low and behold this remained exactly the same in 2002. Check your AFL record late in the 2002 season and you will see the Kanags, as usual, had the most kicks and the least handballs.

His gameplan is based around efficiency. Mathematics. Innovations such as the "Paddock" are just tweaks, or subsidiaries to the most effective gameplan even constructed by a senior VFL-AFL coach. Kick it long, minimise your errors by doing so, cover the maxium amount of space by going direct. if possible kick the ball over the heads of your forwards into space, and maximise the tall forwards (whoever they happen to be, it doesn't matter the principle remains the same) by kicking long to them, quickly to isolate them.

At all levels, under all standards with different teams every year Denis Pagan uses simple mathematics to base the gameplan on how his players play the game. And it works. It always will, because it can't fail.

It is why Carlton will beocome an immediate premiership contender under Denis Pagan. Forget the doomsdayers. Pagan equals premierships.
 
Originally posted by tashibatts
Dan26

You obvisouly love Denis Pagan- would you rather he was at Essendon than Sheedy?

Would I ever. He was with us for one year as reserves coach in '92. Result 21-3, 160% and a premiership. Following on from 9 consecutive under 19's Grand Finals with North I might add - with a different team every two years, so people can't use the excuse "Oh he had good players" "Coincidentally" had the best under 19's playing list 9 years in a row? Yeah right.

I'd swap him for Sheedy in a second.
 
by Dan 26

At all levels, under all standards with different teams every year Denis Pagan uses simple mathematics to base the gameplan on how his players play the game. And it works. It always will, because it can't fail.

It is why Carlton will beocome an immediate premiership contender under Denis Pagan. Forget the doomsdayers. Pagan equals premierships.

bollocks.

to play pagans style u need great one on one players all over the ground. ie carey, stevens, archer, martyn, blakey, pickett etc. Carlton will not make the 8 let alone be flag contenders.
 
Pagan's style might work at Carlton, if Kouta has a big year. He could very much play in the mould of Carey circa 1994-99. If he puts in a big year, they could be right up there.

If not however, we might see CArlton perform like North of 2000-2001. Not bad, but not right up there. And let's face it, if Pagan is going to do anything with Carlton, he has to do it now, they'll be screwed in a few years time.
 
Originally posted by Dan26
Denis Pagan has been laughing for years at how the media label his gameplan with names such as "Pagans Padock"

Whilst there have been slight alterations, Pagans basic gameplan has remained much the same since he began at the Kangaroos in 1993. Back in '93 they had the most number of long kicks, least number of handballs, and low and behold this remained exactly the same in 2002. Check your AFL record late in the 2002 season and you will see the Kanags, as usual, had the most kicks and the least handballs.

His gameplan is based around efficiency. Mathematics. Innovations such as the "Paddock" are just tweaks, or subsidiaries to the most effective gameplan even constructed by a senior VFL-AFL coach. Kick it long, minimise your errors by doing so, cover the maxium amount of space by going direct. if possible kick the ball over the heads of your forwards into space, and maximise the tall forwards (whoever they happen to be, it doesn't matter the principle remains the same) by kicking long to them, quickly to isolate them.

At all levels, under all standards with different teams every year Denis Pagan uses simple mathematics to base the gameplan on how his players play the game. And it works. It always will, because it can't fail.

It is why Carlton will beocome an immediate premiership contender under Denis Pagan. Forget the doomsdayers. Pagan equals premierships.

The same system used to win the 1980 grand final.

Also Hafey was big on just kicking it long and still is. We won 4 flags in 7 years with Hafey.
 
Effective? Yes.

Unbeatable? Ahh no.

It is painfully predictable. Sydney know how to munch it up, and have done it to us for 2 years. It accomodates small gritty wins, or massive losses. We had the cattle pre 2000 (Carlton do not), and yeah, we won games. We had a bloody good football side it must be remembered.

It will win Carlton some games. My concern for Carlton :)D ) is that the style of game requires a unrelenting, season long manic attack at the footy. They aint got it IMO.

It least it will shorten Lance's career. Long bombs to Lance. It will be an athletic FB's form of heaven. Knock it to ground, b1tch slap Houlihan, and run away from fatty.

Those withches hat's at Arden St don't put out themselves Denis.

Get to it.
 
Originally posted by Yianni
Pagan's style might work at Carlton, if Kouta has a big year. He could very much play in the mould of Carey circa 1994-99. If he puts in a big year, they could be right up there.

If not however, we might see Carlton perform like North of 2000-2001. Not bad, but not right up there. And let's face it, if Pagan is going to do anything with Carlton, he has to do it now, they'll be screwed in a few years time.

We'll be fine, you sanctimonious bastard! Traipsing about Europe amusing the masses at the drop of a hat - when are you going to change your avatar, eh? - what would you know? You used to be cool, man...

(sob).

Actually, dude, when you get back i'll bet you 10 bucks the blues finish higher than North.
 

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i think your right that the teams who used to short chip kick the ball around the oval used to have it over us

the swans and the doggies were pretty good at that.

i actually hope we get some of that long kicking for goals play going again. when scholl, longmire, carey were the main part of the attack.

players like diggers rocca jones can take this mantle im sure theres more,
 
Originally posted by Dan26
Denis Pagan has been laughing for years at how the media label his gameplan with names such as "Pagans Padock"
Rubbish. Pagan cannot laugh. His face would fall off.
Originally posted by Dan26
Whilst there have been slight alterations, Pagans basic gameplan has remained much the same since he began at the Kangaroos in 1993. Back in '93 they had the most number of long kicks, least number of handballs, and low and behold this remained exactly the same in 2002. Check your AFL record late in the 2002 season and you will see the Kanags, as usual, had the most kicks and the least handballs.
OK Dan, I'm gonna book you for this one. Irrelevent use of stats in an attempt at self justification.

I wouldn't disagree with the accuracy of the stats. It has nothing whatsoever to to with disproviong a Pagan's paddock theory. If anything it is evidence for it's existance. It has always been said that the open forward line between Carey and the goals has it's success based on getting the ball in quickly. Tom Hafey's kick it long to the forwards approach is consistant with the Pagan's Paddock theory. The timeframe you refer to is not relevant. It sipmly illustrates Pagans basic game plane and to a lesser extent the make up of the team in that time - hard direct players. As far as I know nobody has claimed Pagan's Paddock appklied from Pagan's first game, just that it became an effective part of the game plan and in the opinion of some, the cornerstone of the tactic used to score from the long kicking wfficiency game he favours.
Originally posted by Dan26
Innovations such as the "Paddock" are just tweaks, or subsidiaries to the most effective gameplan even constructed by a senior VFL-AFL coach. Kick it long, minimise your errors by doing so, cover the maxium amount of space by going direct. if possible kick the ball over the heads of your forwards into space, and maximise the tall forwards (whoever they happen to be, it doesn't matter the principle remains the same) by kicking long to them, quickly to isolate them.

At all levels, under all standards with different teams every year Denis Pagan uses simple mathematics to base the gameplan on how his players play the game. And it works. It always will, because it can't fail.
Rubbish. Pagan won how many premierships with the greatest game plan ever devisied and with the greatest player ever to play (in some's opinion). For God's sake Dan the greatest game plan in the hands of the greatest coach with the best equipment would result in at leat 5 premierships in 10 years if not 8 or 9. You might say Pagan equals premierships. I say a good coach with a good squad at a club which is well run equals premierships unless too many other are better than good in those areas. Then it equals underachievement.
Originally posted by Dan26
It is why Carlton will beocome an immediate premiership contender under Denis Pagan. Forget the doomsdayers. Pagan equals premierships.
Absolute garbage. Carlton have an ordinary list that will get weaker before it gets stronger. Pagan has a game style that may or may not be suited to the capabilities of the players. Man for man the list does not match more than half the lists in the comp and then you have to consider the age injury status of certain of the better players. Apart from that, the mental approach of the players is a big x factor given recent events. Pagan is a good coach. So are a few others and many of them have better lists and less internal strife at present. They also have deaft choices.

Immediate premiership contender my arse!
Line up the Carlton list against the Brisbane list. Starting with Voss and whoever you think is Carlton's best player. Then ask yourself who you would rather have on your list. Then go down the order. At no stage will you find you choose a Carlton player. After about 10 or so players you'll probably find the gulf between the Brisbane and Carlton player so huge it will scare you in a sane assessment of Carlton's chances. If you are really in the mood try it with every list. I doub't you will find many, if any, behind Carlton's. IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.
 
Originally posted by MarkT
...
Absolute garbage. Carlton have an ordinary list that will get weaker before it gets stronger. Pagan has a game style that may or may not be suited to the capabilities of the players. Man for man the list does not match more than half the lists in the comp and then you have to consider the age injury status of certain of the better players. Apart from that, the mental approach of the players is a big x factor given recent events. Pagan is a good coach. So are a few others and many of them have better lists and less internal strife at present. They also have deaft choices.

Immediate premiership contender my arse!
Line up the Carlton list against the Brisbane list. Starting with Voss and whoever you think is Carlton's best player. Then ask yourself who you would rather have on your list. Then go down the order. At no stage will you find you choose a Carlton player. After about 10 or so players you'll probably find the gulf between the Brisbane and Carlton player so huge it will scare you in a sane assessment of Carlton's chances. If you are really in the mood try it with every list. I doub't you will find many, if any, behind Carlton's. IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.

When Dan first posted this "Carlton 4th spot in 2003" bollocks I made exactly the same points to Dan as you have here MarkT. Carlton just don't appear to have the required strength on their playing list to do much more than climb the ladder by a few places.

Save you typing fingers MarkT. Dan won't listen. Experience has shown me this.

Yes, I know, I know - I have already tried your exact same response, so I didn't take my own advice!

Mea culpa.
 
Originally posted by MarkT
Immediate premiership contender my arse!
Line up the Carlton list against the Brisbane list. Starting with Voss and whoever you think is Carlton's best player. Then ask yourself who you would rather have on your list. Then go down the order. At no stage will you find you choose a Carlton player. After about 10 or so players you'll probably find the gulf between the Brisbane and Carlton player so huge it will scare you in a sane assessment of Carlton's chances. If you are really in the mood try it with every list. I doub't you will find many, if any, behind Carlton's. IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.

Funny how Carlton beat them by 70+ points in Brisbane's first premiership year. And then in the second when Carlton were without Kouta and about 8 other players, Brisbane struggled to beat them AT THE GABBA and they JUST did by about 10 points.

On matchday Carlton will be hard to beat. I mean, St Kilda have a great list, better than a lot, but they wont go anywhere, will they?
 
Originally posted by MarkT
It sipmly illustrates Pagans basic game plane and to a lesser extent the make up of the team in that time - hard direct players...........<snip>............Pagan has a game style that may or may not be suited to the capabilities of the players.

While the movement of the ball is one thing in Pagan's tactics, the other key to the Pagan game plan is to create contests with the view of 1. winning the contested ball and 2. creating enough physical punishment on the opposition that they get fatigued. To that end, Pagan had players like Carey, Archer, Martyn, Rock, Schwass, Stevens, Pickett etc. who all loved to draw the opposition into a physical contest. I don't think the Blues have the same depth of players who can execute that "physical contest" aspect of his game plan.

From 2000 to now, the Roos teams were always vulnerable to clubs who played possession/running football that avoided physical contests. It's hardly the hallmark of a gameplan that is guaranteed to take any club to the finals and to win premierships.


As far as I know nobody has claimed Pagan's Paddock appklied from Pagan's first game, just that it became an effective part of the game plan and in the opinion of some, the cornerstone of the tactic used to score from the long kicking wfficiency game he favours.

The tactic came into use in 1998. Before than, Pagan had the luxury of being able to play 3 tall forwards. I don't think you'll see the Paddock used too often in 2003 if he has Whitnall, McKernan, and Kouta in the forward half.


Pagan is a good coach. So are a few others and many of them have better lists and less internal strife at present. They also have deaft choices.

And here's the irony of it. Pagan is a good enough coach to make sure that Carlton finish high enough to, at the very least, contest for the finals without actually threatening for the flag. However, that means that whilst the Blues will be competitive, they won't have that bad year or two that will give them access to those precious top 5 picks that will eventually deliver those players with that bit of extra ability that premiership teams inevitably have. It's a reasonable bet that for the next five years, the Blues will consistently finish between 6th and 10th.

IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.

Give them a fair run with injuries and they'll make the finals. But no way will they finish top 4.

But hey, what would I know about Pagan, his gameplan, and its chances for success? I've only seen nearly every AFL Roos game with Pagan at the helm. But I'm sure that Dan26 has some special insight (or stats) that will trump the views of the rest of us.
 
Originally posted by NorthBhoy
Effective? Yes.

Unbeatable? Ahh no.

It is painfully predictable. Sydney know how to munch it up, and have done it to us for 2 years. It accomodates small gritty wins, or massive losses. We had the cattle pre 2000 (Carlton do not), and yeah, we won games. We had a bloody good football side it must be remembered.

It will win Carlton some games. My concern for Carlton :)D ) is that the style of game requires a unrelenting, season long manic attack at the footy. They aint got it IMO.

It least it will shorten Lance's career. Long bombs to Lance. It will be an athletic FB's form of heaven. Knock it to ground, b1tch slap Houlihan, and run away from fatty.
Get to it.

ha, ha, that s the funniest line Ive heard in a while...

I do think game plans that are simple, more efficient, and rely on winning the contested ball are more likely to succeed during the finals. During finals type pressure, fancy running game, keepings off style gameplans tend to come unstuck badly. Perhaps pagan realises the point isnt to win 22/22 H&A games, its to get into the 8 (as high as possible of course), then to get into and win the GF. The roos have had pretty good finals success over the years with teams that consisted mostly of honest battlers.
 
Gerard Houllier could have coached the North teams in the nineties. Deni$ will get found out at a club where the players have no heart.
 
Originally posted by MarkT


Rubbish. Pagan won how many premierships with the greatest game plan ever devisied

He won 8 with his game plan, consisting of 5 premierships in 9 years with North under 19's, one in one year with Essendon, and 2 with North seniors. The standard of football is different but the basic coaching philopsphy is the same. I don't buy this crap about him having good players to work with. What, did he coincidentally have the best under 19's playing list 9 years in a row, even though there is a turnover of players every 2 years? Yeah right. Sure.

At North he took over a team that hadn't even made the finals for 6 years much less contend for a flag. Only a month before the first game of 1993, they lost by 150 points in the Ansett cup. He took over a rabble. A total and utter rabble who hadn't gone anywhere for more than half a decade. Don't be fooled into thinking they ever had the most talented list. They didn't. He made the players combine effectively to become a better team. He had success, because he uses the players at his disposal more effectively than any other coach in the games histroy.

Originally posted by MarkT
For God's sake Dan the greatest game plan in the hands of the greatest coach with the best equipment would result in at leat 5 premierships in 10 years if not 8 or 9.

Pagan didn't have the best playing list, or the best facilities. He didn't even have a pre-season in '93! It didn't matter. He took a team that wasn't that talented and made them a contender every season, simply because he uses his reources with brutal efficiency. He knows you can't beat mathematics. Play the percentages and you will win more often than not. The reuslt is that Denis Pagan coached teams at all levels are flag contenders virtually every season.

Originally posted by MarkT
I say a good coach with a good squad at a club which is well run equals premierships unless too many other are better than good in those areas.

Prior to 1993, North had a poor on-field record, an average list, and were not particularly well run. Pagan came and immediately turned it all around. It wasn't as if he inherited a team that was going places. He took over a team that hadn't made the finals for 6 years, and had lost by 150 points a few weeks before the first game. They were in turmoil. It's easy to be an expet 10 year later and claim they had a top list, but we're all experts in hindsight aren't we.

Originally posted by MarkT
Pagan has a game style that may or may not be suited to the capabilities of the players.

Pagan's basic game plan has been used for 20 years, 10 of them at senior level. Eery year he has diffeent teams and different players to work with. To suggest his game pan may not be suited to the capabilities of his players is absurd. His game plan has proved to be successful at North for 10 bloody years. Not one, Not two. TEN! Players came and went, but the game plan continued to be successful, because mathematics can't fail!

Originally posted by MarkT, regarding Carlton in 2003
Immediate premiership contender my arse!

No doubt you though the same thing about North prior to 1993. Result - North were an immediate flag contender. Short memory have we? Where did you predict North would finish in '93 may I ask? Carlton, rememebr have much the same side that was a flag contender only 18 months ago with the most important addition - Pagan.

Originally posted by MarkT
IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.

If Denis Pagan coaches a bottom 4 side for 3 years ina row, I will start supporting Carlton. You've been following footall long enough to know that this man will achieve results. They will become an immediate flag contender. Mark my words.
 
Originally posted by Dan26
Denis Pagan has been laughing for years at how the media label his gameplan with names such as "Pagans Padock"

Whilst there have been slight alterations, Pagans basic gameplan has remained much the same since he began at the Kangaroos in 1993. Back in '93 they had the most number of long kicks, least number of handballs, and low and behold this remained exactly the same in 2002. Check your AFL record late in the 2002 season and you will see the Kanags, as usual, had the most kicks and the least handballs.

His gameplan is based around efficiency. Mathematics. Innovations such as the "Paddock" are just tweaks, or subsidiaries to the most effective gameplan even constructed by a senior VFL-AFL coach. Kick it long, minimise your errors by doing so, cover the maxium amount of space by going direct. if possible kick the ball over the heads of your forwards into space, and maximise the tall forwards (whoever they happen to be, it doesn't matter the principle remains the same) by kicking long to them, quickly to isolate them.

At all levels, under all standards with different teams every year Denis Pagan uses simple mathematics to base the gameplan on how his players play the game. And it works. It always will, because it can't fail.

It is why Carlton will beocome an immediate premiership contender under Denis Pagan. Forget the doomsdayers. Pagan equals premierships.

Not so. Eade has Pagan worked out because the Pagan gameplan may be efficient, but it is also HIGHLY predictable.

It is very easy for teams to cover the hotspot in the forward line and run away all contests brought to ground. As an Essendon supporter surely you should have seen how your own side have just let North get in and under quickly and then close up all options when they inevitably kick it long and then switch play to the opposite side of the ground, which is always vacant and then score at will.

The Swans, Bombers and Dogs have been able to do this very regularly against us.

Pagans gameplan is all about locking it up and creating contests and I'm not sure he has the personel at the Blues to do it all over the park.
 
Originally posted by Dan26




If Denis Pagan coaches a bottom 4 side for 3 years ina row, I will start supporting Carlton. You've been following footall long enough to know that this man will achieve results. They will become an immediate flag contender. Mark my words.

3 years in row? that is hard to do and only managed by a select few :cool:

Marked
 
Hey Dan26,

I've noticed that the only post by a Roos fan that you've bothered to reply to was the one made by Tashibatts. I also see that you're happy to take on MarkT, someone who has as much knowledge about footy as anyone else here, but conveniently for you, he probably hasn't seen as many North games as myself and the other Roos fans.

You're not trying to avoid debating the Roos fans on the merits of the Pagan game plan are you?

Kind Regards
Shinboners
 
Originally posted by MarkT

Absolute garbage. Carlton have an ordinary list that will get weaker before it gets stronger. Pagan has a game style that may or may not be suited to the capabilities of the players. Man for man the list does not match more than half the lists in the comp and then you have to consider the age injury status of certain of the better players. Apart from that, the mental approach of the players is a big x factor given recent events. Pagan is a good coach. So are a few others and many of them have better lists and less internal strife at present. They also have deaft choices.

Immediate premiership contender my arse!
Line up the Carlton list against the Brisbane list. Starting with Voss and whoever you think is Carlton's best player. Then ask yourself who you would rather have on your list. Then go down the order. At no stage will you find you choose a Carlton player. After about 10 or so players you'll probably find the gulf between the Brisbane and Carlton player so huge it will scare you in a sane assessment of Carlton's chances. If you are really in the mood try it with every list. I doub't you will find many, if any, behind Carlton's. IMO they are a bottom 4 side for the next 3 years.

This is crap. The quality of the list is never material to success, but what you can extract from the list is. Because if that was the case Saints would have been playing Dockers in the last 3 GF. Brisbane till Mathews took over was a joke, still had the same side that has now won 2 in a row.

While I don't expect us to seriously challenge the flag in 03, I reckon we will be in the top 8 come Sept. Mark T would like to see you write an biased post.
 

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