Pagans Persitence with certain players

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Thread starter #1
Hi all I have tried to stay positive in the last few years where we have been in terrible form however I have a few questions to pose:
Why does Denis persist with Adrian de Luca?
I understand he probably does have a good attitude, trains hard and offers something different, however he has shown little improvement in the last 2 years and does not warrant a position in the starting 22 for Rnd 1.

The same applies to Simon Wiggins- Although he shows nothing different and has been at the club many years and still has not proven himself. Not sure if he ever will.

There are others such as Chambers, Sporn, but I am willing to give them a little more time as they have either shown something or have not been around long.

I do not understand why he does not give a game to players like Hartlett, Russell and Blackwell. As West Coast showed last night the game is changing into a fast paced one, not a traditional position setup one. These players are ideal for this type of game

Decisions like this have great effect on membership renewal (note I am a signed up member) as unfortunately a great deal of people do focus on the negatives and over the past few years Wiggins and De Luca have not really provided any real form for people to be positive about. I understand it is only round one but as a passionate supporter we need greater hope that what is being dished up at the moment. Why are we the only team that it takes years and years for our youngsters to come on and in many cases they are either deemed not up to it- Murray Vance or shipped of Kris Massie- Watch out Luke Livingston you are looking down the barrel.


On the positive side- Go blues do it for Kouta 250th he deserves it
 

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stokesy

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#2
SilKouta said:
Hi all I have tried to stay positive in the last few years where we have been in terrible form however I have a few questions to pose:
Why does Denis persist with Adrian de Luca?
I understand he probably does have a good attitude, trains hard and offers something different, however he has shown little improvement in the last 2 years and does not warrant a position in the starting 22 for Rnd 1.

The same applies to Simon Wiggins- Although he shows nothing different and has been at the club many years and still has not proven himself. Not sure if he ever will.

There are others such as Chambers, Sporn, but I am willing to give them a little more time as they have either shown something or have not been around long.

I do not understand why he does not give a game to players like Hartlett, Russell and Blackwell. As West Coast showed last night the game is changing into a fast paced one, not a traditional position setup one. These players are ideal for this type of game

Decisions like this have great effect on membership renewal (note I am a signed up member) as unfortunately a great deal of people do focus on the negatives and over the past few years Wiggins and De Luca have not really provided any real form for people to be positive about.
I think Deluca has something.

Last year he was injured.

The year before he was our best first year player.

He has shown plenty of improvement in my opinion, and earlier in the pre season when he picked the ball up off the ground and scooted along the boundary against Geelong that showed what he can do.

I think he deserves to be in the starting line up, however if he doesn't take a grab or kick goals, then get him out.

I would like to see Hartlett, Blackwell and co. in the side also.

You have said that you're willing to give Chambers and Sporn a little more time because they "have either showed something" or "have not been around long".

Both players have been around for ages, Chambers played a few years with West Coast and has shown minimal for Carlton. Although I think he has a place in the side because what he has shown, is pretty good.

Sporn's been around for some time also and if he can't step up, cya later his outta here.

I find it strange you say you will give Chambers and Sporn time because they haven't been around for a while, whilst you want Deluca out.

Wiggins isn't the most gifted footy player around, howver he has shown more than half of the team out there. He doesn't crack the sads, he puts his head over the footy and he plays the game in the right context - hard.

It's players with Wiggins style that make me sign up as a member. Watching Wiggins put his head over the ball, or lay a tackle, gives me more joy then Houlihan skirting around the packs plucking his bum hairs.
 
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Stokesy- I understand what you are saying, with Chambers I meant he had only been at Carlton for one year and with Sporn the guy has held Hird to limited impact a few times and that says something.

I think Pagan needs to make a decision with Wiggins to give him a permanent role if he is too play him as currently he is a no impact player. i.e make him a tagger and stick too it. We cannot afford to have players in the team who do the little things well, in the past there may have been a spot for him because of this, however football is a totally different game and requires a lot more than the 1% ers

As for De Luca- Yes he was best first year player, but based on current form he does not deserve a spot in the 22.
 

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#4
SilKouta, can't agree with your sentiments on DeLuca.

Last year he was struggling after coming into the side late in the year from injury and we have seen many footballers do that with limited pre-season. His first year was good, so I have no problem with him having a first up crack in 2006 before others.

He is very mobile, versatile (played back) for his size, can take a mark and kick a goal. He is young (you know what they say about big men) and over 200cm, so he can also pinch hit in the ruck, although it's not his best asset and up until now he has not had any ruck coaching, so he can improve. Bulk/Muscle over the next year or so will also help.

What he needs to learn is to get more consistent and present more when resting forward. A forward line of DeLuca, Waite, Fisher, Fevola and even Whitnall (doubt will see them all there though), could be very exciting.

I have time for him.
 

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#5
If DeLuca could take those grabs he misses more consistently he could be a great asset. He is very fast for a tall guy if somewhat ********weak and, if could hold those grabs, would require a very tall athletic defender to take him (same as O'Hailpin actually). Might mean some teams will struggle to cover Fev, Fisher, Waite and DeLuca/OHailpin. Might also force some teams to play a forward as a defender and taking some pressure off our smallish defence.
 

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#6
And to continue on with what SurreyBlue is saying, Deluca also needs an injection of confidence.

If he can play a few games in a row and be consistent, or even have a game where he can kick a little bag of goals, then thatwould be enormous.

As SurreyBlue also said, Deluca is a tall man and they take longer to develop than others.
 

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#7
stokesy said:
I think Deluca has something.

Last year he was injured.

The year before he was our best first year player.

He has shown plenty of improvement in my opinion, and earlier in the pre season when he picked the ball up off the ground and scooted along the boundary against Geelong that showed what he can do.

I think he deserves to be in the starting line up, however if he doesn't take a grab or kick goals, then get him out.

I would like to see Hartlett, Blackwell and co. in the side also.

You have said that you're willing to give Chambers and Sporn a little more time because they "have either showed something" or "have not been around long".

Both players have been around for ages, Chambers played a few years with West Coast and has shown minimal for Carlton. Although I think he has a place in the side because what he has shown, is pretty good.

Sporn's been around for some time also and if he can't step up, cya later his outta here.

I find it strange you say you will give Chambers and Sporn time because they haven't been around for a while, whilst you want Deluca out.

Wiggins isn't the most gifted footy player around, howver he has shown more than half of the team out there. He doesn't crack the sads, he puts his head over the footy and he plays the game in the right context - hard.

It's players with Wiggins style that make me sign up as a member. Watching Wiggins put his head over the ball, or lay a tackle, gives me more joy then Houlihan skirting around the packs plucking his bum hairs.
couldn't agree more in regards to everything except Wiggins. Not sure about him still. Oh well, a big year to see where they stand coming up for a few of them.
 

audas

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#8
SurreyBlue said:
A forward line of DeLuca, Waite, Fisher, Fevola and even Whitnall (doubt will see them all there though), could be very exciting.

I have time for him.
Yeah especially with Kennedy and Ohalpin being thrown in there. Definitely exciting and hard for lance to move in there.

The run around the boundry line by DeLuca was really impressive for a big man.
 

C4[2]Yo`DooR

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#9
Guys, I dont mean to sound nostaglic or anything ..

But could you imagine our side today with Laurrie Angwin in it ?

I guess my point in this post is:

Laurence Angwin >>>> Adrian Deluca

I think we'd be a lot more competitive today had we of kept Angwin.


(but we'd be short of valuable's around the club :))
 

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If Angwin was still in our side, I can't imagine the headlines in the HUN and the bad press we would be getting after his third positive drug test.


Raw talent alone will get you nowhere in the AFL. You need to at least have some basic intelligence. This bloke was as silly as a wheel.
 
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#14
Napolean said:
If Angwin was still in our side, I can't imagine the headlines in the HUN and the bad press we would be getting after his third positive drug test.


Raw talent alone will get you nowhere in the AFL. You need to at least have some basic intelligence. This bloke was as silly as a wheel.
Exactly, well said......
 

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#15
Napolean said:
If Angwin was still in our side, I can't imagine the headlines in the HUN and the bad press we would be getting after his third positive drug test.


Raw talent alone will get you nowhere in the AFL. You need to at least have some basic intelligence. This bloke was as silly as a wheel.
Ok, that being said lets look at the facts:

  • Wooden Spooners 2002,2005
  • Favourites for the Spoon 2006
  • Arguably the least talented list
  • Financial strife
  • Board room problems
The fact is, we are already receiving horrific press. I think I'd even go as far to say that we are rock bottom. Players such as Mark Bolton (the worst player in the AFL) refused to come to Carlton.

I dont mean to sound pessimistic but I do beleive where at a stage where we cant really sink any lower off field. So with all that, whats a drug cheat or two to help boost our onfield performances :)
 

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#16
C4[2]Yo`DooR said:
Ok, that being said lets look at the facts:

  • Wooden Spooners 2002,2005
  • Favourites for the Spoon 2006
  • Arguably the least talented list
  • Financial strife
  • Board room problems
The fact is, we are already receiving horrific press. I think I'd even go as far to say that we are rock bottom. Players such as Mark Bolton (the worst player in the AFL) refused to come to Carlton.

I dont mean to sound pessimistic but I do beleive where at a stage where we cant really sink any lower off field. So with all that, whats a drug cheat or two to help boost our onfield performances :)
So you point out all the negatives and then offer up another negative ..way to go genius :rolleyes:
 

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#17
Napolean said:
If Angwin was still in our side, I can't imagine the headlines in the HUN and the bad press we would be getting after his third positive drug test.


Raw talent alone will get you nowhere in the AFL. You need to at least have some basic intelligence. This bloke was as silly as a wheel.
He was so stupid, he turned up at the Cramer st ground, for a Bullants game, the week after he was kicked out of Carlton. He proceeded to walk past the coaches box & social club area where both Bullants and Carlton coaching personnel (including Denis Pagan) were sitting, thinking that wearing a beanie and a jacket, with collar raised, would maintain some anonymity. He called to another Carlton listed, young player, who also left the club in mysterious circumstances, and arranged a rendezvous on the hill, behind the goals. It was fairly obvious to any observer what was about to go down, but it happened anyway. I looked towards Pagan and Elshaug to see if they had noticed his presence, and it would seem they did, both of them looking straight towards him. The fact that this other Carlton listed player, who was not even getting a game for the Bullants, followed Angwin to the hill, would have left no doubt in the minds of the Carlton coaching personnel, that he was bad news as well. This little effort by Angwin demonstrated just how foolish and rebellious he really was. Certainly he was no loss to the club, no matter how much talent he possessed.
 

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#19
Bring Back Laurie '07? Pah-lease.

These guys are only getting a trot in the 25 because we have a few injuries at the moment (Hartlett, Santy) and guys who need to lift their form (Russell), throw in Kennedy, Bower (who can play now but not as a KPP) and Edwards (Lappin replacement reading his description) and there's a few options, althought some are physically immature.

I still have time for Sporn, Wiggins and Chambers. They're all a few bits and pieces away from being solid AFL players and have time to work on it this season if they want to avoid the chop.
 
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#20
C4[2]Yo`DooR said:
Ok, that being said lets look at the facts:
  • Wooden Spooners 2002,2005
  • Favourites for the Spoon 2006
  • Arguably the least talented list
  • Financial strife
  • Board room problems
The fact is, we are already receiving horrific press. I think I'd even go as far to say that we are rock bottom. Players such as Mark Bolton (the worst player in the AFL) refused to come to Carlton.

I dont mean to sound pessimistic but I do beleive where at a stage where we cant really sink any lower off field. So with all that, whats a drug cheat or two to help boost our onfield performances :)
The win on the weekend highlights why we do not need talented nutjobs like Angwin. The talent that he might bring is far outweighed by the negative effect he would have on team morale. A guy like Wiggins, for all his failings, at least tries his gutz out every week for the team. While this does not directly translate to possessions and spots on the highlight reel it is invaluable none the less.

Of all of the issues you highlighted above, which of these would be solved by retaining or recruiting Angwin back to the team? How many other issues would recruiting him create?

As others have highlighted, we now have some talented big guys on the list who, from all reports, have a similar attitude to a Wiggins but a lot more talent to go with.
 
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#23
We must get over this Angwin deal, I mean look what happened to his drug-buddy and mate and who also won a rising star: Karl Norman.

There's no use saying but or if, the guys were both duds.


Bannister, Davies aren't too far behind, and what planet is Longmuir revolving around this season?
 

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#24
Wiggo? This bloke has been at the club and has heart. But does not have the ability to compete at this level. He is a very good VFL player. Prenda, maybe does have something. But along with Wiggo needs to show something.

Wiggins, Chambers, Prenda, Sporn and Davies and are all playing for there respective careers.
 
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