Palestine has equal claim

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From the Letters to the Editor page in the West Australian dated 18/11/2004

' In his letter (15/11) David *********** mixes two issues- the corrupt character of Yasser Arafat and the question of a distinct Palestinian national identity--to convince us that the first is evil and the second a falsehood.

Edited/deleted paragraph.

With respect to the question of Palestinan identity, which Mr ********* rejects as a patent fraud , I have no ready answer. I have taught Middle Eastern history at various universities for 30 years and I am aware of the debate that rages about this issue.There is certainly little evidence of a modern Palestinian consciousness until the late 19th century, just as there is little evidence of a modern Jewish nationalism until Theodore Herzl published ' The Jewish State' in 1896 in which he advocated the creation of an independent Jewish state in the response to the pogroms in Eastern Europe.

The irony is that both modern Jewish nationalism and Palestinian nationalism developed in tandem with the British promising both Palestinian Jews and Arabs some form of independence during WW1 if they would adopt the allied cause.

Palestine came into existence in the 1920s as a British-mandated territory under the League of Nations. Israel was created some decades later out of the same territory. On a strict chronological basis, Palestine has at least an equal claim to modern Israel regarding national identity, but need I remind Mr ********** that not all Jews have agreed on the idea of a modern Jewish state?

There have been may schools of political debate among Jews since the 19th century, most of which have not been concerned with the revival of an Israel that ceased to exist more than 2000 years ago.

Even in modern Israel there remains a hard core of orthodox Jews who reject the idea of the creation of a Jewish state in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah.

Arafat may have been corrupt , but to deny the Palestinians a sense of identity because of this and on the basis of a particular and selective reading of history serves neither side well if they are to reach some form of co-existence''

Dr Kenneth McPherson PHD in History East Fremantle
------------------------------------------------------------------

I have highlighted areas I felt needed emphasising in regards to the arguments I see raging back and forth between assorted posters who have an interest in the region.

I would like either sides '' drum beaters'' to make a case as to why this Professor would know less than them.

I wont pretend to know as much as the professor or those descendant from the region ( maybe I am naive) but I do know the general history of the area and know that people like Moshe Dayan and David Ben-Gurion fought side by side as much as Arafat and Abbas did in the last 30 years.(using the same tactics)

I also know the area WAS called Palestine before 1948. As to who has a rightful claim? I dont know..why did the Jewish people spread throughout Europe and leave the area now known as Israel? All questions I would hope get answered before it degenerates into a slanging match
 

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Frodo

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#3
Again it comes back to Germany.

If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory and no Palestine of Israeli states would exist.

Never forget the impact of the most evil nation of the 20th century. Their actions were far reaching.
 

Qsaint

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#4
Frodo said:
Again it comes back to Germany.

If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory and no Palestine of Israeli states would exist.

Never forget the impact of the most evil nation of the 20th century. Their actions were far reaching.
No it doesn't

The empire ended after India declared independence and the Uk lost some African 'colonies'. England only has a handfull of small insignificant colonies such as Pitcairn that they would like to get rid of if the could. The British would have left Palestine at some point, even if some Zionist terrorists didn't make them exit after WW2.
 

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#5
Frodo said:
Again it comes back to Germany.

If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory and no Palestine of Israeli states would exist.

Never forget the impact of the most evil nation of the 20th century. Their actions were far reaching.
It was part of the Ottoman Empire and became British after WWI. The British fully supported the estabilishment of a Jewish state from 1917 (Balfour Declaration)
 

afc9798

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#6
Frodo said:
Again it comes back to Germany.

If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory and no Palestine of Israeli states would exist.

Never forget the impact of the most evil nation of the 20th century. Their actions were far reaching.
Oh for God's sake, go and do your homework. Seriously, your ignorance is becoming an embarassment.
 

Bombers 2003

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#7
Tim56 said:
The Jewish state was created out of areas in which Jews were already the majority in 1948.
The only area that had anything approaching a jewish majority in palestine in 1948 was the northern regions,from Tel Aviv to Galilee.
 

medusala

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#8
Bombers 2003 said:
The only area that had anything approaching a jewish majority in palestine in 1948 was the northern regions,from Tel Aviv to Galilee.
I dont often (ever) agree with Bombers but Tim you should look at the respective population figures for Palestine at the start of the century. Jews were bugger all % of the population, in fact there were just as many Christians. On your basis the Christians have just as good a claim as the Jews if not better given that the country was once part of a Christian Empire.
 

Frodo

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#9
afc9798 said:
Oh for God's sake, go and do your homework. Seriously, your ignorance is becoming an embarassment.
As the historian said in the opening post

The irony is that both modern Jewish nationalism and Palestinian nationalism developed in tandem with the British promising both Palestinian Jews and Arabs some form of independence during WW1 if they would adopt the allied cause.
So whos is the embarrasment now, di;ckhead
 
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Frodo said:
So whos is the embarrasment now, di;ckhead
Well you obviously, Tim56 has already pointed out the major flaw in your argument.

Scenario 1: no WW1 - Palestine remains part of the Ottoman empire
Scenario 2: WW1 - Britain takes control of Palestine but commits to the Balfour agreement to grant independence.

There is scope for saying "If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory"
 

evo

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#11
PerthCrow said:
Palestine came into existence in the 1920s,

T

What about the Philistines?

from Wikipedia..


The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, which belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BCE). "David and Goliath" as well as "Samson and Delilah" are two biblical accounts of Philistine/Israelite conflicts. The biblical description of Goliath's armor is consistent with Philistine iron-smithing technology of the time.



and

Philistia the name of the Philistine Kingdoms became "Palestine" under the Romans


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Sounds to me like they were there just slightly before the 1920s and the British.





<ducks for cover>
 

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Bombers 2003

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#12
evo said:
What about the Philistines?

from Wikipedia..


The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, which belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BCE). "David and Goliath" as well as "Samson and Delilah" are two biblical accounts of Philistine/Israelite conflicts. The biblical description of Goliath's armor is consistent with Philistine iron-smithing technology of the time.



and

Philistia the name of the Philistine Kingdoms became "Palestine" under the Romans


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Sounds to me like they were there just slightly before the 1920s and the British.





<ducks for cover>
A little bit before the British.
 

Frodo

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#13
Jim Boy said:
Well you obviously, Tim56 has already pointed out the major flaw in your argument.

Scenario 1: no WW1 - Palestine remains part of the Ottoman empire
Scenario 2: WW1 - Britain takes control of Palestine but commits to the Balfour agreement to grant independence.

There is scope for saying "If not for WW1 the British would still have the territory"
Not my argument sunshine. I quoted from the original post which was an extract from an expert. The insult from Tim related to my not having read up about it when clearly I had as it was in the first post.
Tim may insult the expert, his choice, but not to shoot the carrier of the message.
 
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Frodo said:
Not my argument sunshine. I quoted from the original post which was an extract from an expert. The insult from Tim related to my not having read up about it when clearly I had as it was in the first post.
Tim may insult the expert, his choice, but not to shoot the carrier of the message.
Not your argument?

Firstly, you didn't quote anybody, secondly nobody had mentioned Germany prior to you, thirdly there are no inconsistencies with what Tim wrote and what the original article posted, fourthly Tim wasn't insulting you or the original author, he was correcting you and fifthly there is no argument, you're just simply wrong in fact.
 

Lestat

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#15
Jim Boy said:
Not your argument?

Firstly, you didn't quote anybody, secondly nobody had mentioned Germany prior to you, thirdly there are no inconsistencies with what Tim wrote and what the original article posted, fourthly Tim wasn't insulting you or the original author, he was correcting you and fifthly there is no argument, you're just simply wrong in fact.
:D:D:D

Ahh, Frodo....when are you going to give it up.

Your way out of your league!
 

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#18
Bombers 2003 said:
The only area that had anything approaching a jewish majority in palestine in 1948 was the northern regions,from Tel Aviv to Galilee.
Shows how much you know. The Galil was the only area that DIDN'T have anything approaching a Jewish majority. The areas south of Tel Aviv did have a Jewish majority, and in the Negev there was no Arab population to speak of (apart from Bedouins who are happy to be Israeli).
 

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#19
evo said:
What about the Philistines?

from Wikipedia..


The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, which belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BCE). "David and Goliath" as well as "Samson and Delilah" are two biblical accounts of Philistine/Israelite conflicts. The biblical description of Goliath's armor is consistent with Philistine iron-smithing technology of the time.



and

Philistia the name of the Philistine Kingdoms became "Palestine" under the Romans


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Sounds to me like they were there just slightly before the 1920s and the British.





<ducks for cover>
Thank you for posting this. It proves the point I was making on the other thread in reply to Mr Q's ridiculous assertion that Palestine is Arab. There were Philistines but the 'Palestinian' Arabs have only existed since 1964 when the concept was invented in the government boardrooms of Damascus and Cairo as a different strategy for destroying Israel.
 

evo

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#21
MillerCHF said:
Thank you for posting this. It proves the point I was making on the other thread in reply to Mr Q's ridiculous assertion that Palestine is Arab. There were Philistines but the 'Palestinian' Arabs have only existed since 1964 when the concept was invented in the government boardrooms of Damascus and Cairo as a different strategy for destroying Israel.
Miller I have no prior opinion on this and am learning on the run. Are you suggesting that there have been no arabs occupying Palestine(Philista) any time prior to 1964?


again from Wikipedia..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine


The term Palestine originates with the Philistines, who inhabited the southern coast of the region in biblical times. The name appears to have been in continuous use from that time to the present. The Philistines were defeated in about 1000BC,.........................For nineteen hundred years afterwards, the region was subject to successive waves of invaders, each of which left some mark on its people and landscape. This can be attributed to Palestine's strategic location at the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and Europe, and its unique religious status as a "Holy Land" to the three Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
 

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#22
evo said:
Miller I have no prior opinion on this and am learning on the run. Are you suggesting that there have been no arabs occupying Palestine(Philista) any time prior to 1964?


again from Wikipedia..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine


The term Palestine originates with the Philistines, who inhabited the southern coast of the region in biblical times. The name appears to have been in continuous use from that time to the present. The Philistines were defeated in about 1000BC,.........................For nineteen hundred years afterwards, the region was subject to successive waves of invaders, each of which left some mark on its people and landscape. This can be attributed to Palestine's strategic location at the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and Europe, and its unique religious status as a "Holy Land" to the three Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Of course some Arabs have lived in what is today Israel throughout the past centuries. However, there was never any concept of a Palestinian Arab nation, even after most other Arabs in the Middle East had found a national identity. Before the late 1960s, the thought that an Arab would call themself Palestinian was unheard of. The concept was invented by the Arab nations in 1964 as a means of destroying Israel, because they had failed through conventional methods (war). That's when the PLO was set up and began their terrorist campaigns against Israeli and Jewish civilians across the world. Now the whole world is convinced of this myth.

Under the British Mandate until 1948, the only people who ever called themselves Palestinians were Jews. Also, Jordan is inhabited mainly by people who now consider themselves Palestinian so why is there a need for another Arab nation in the region? As if 22 Arab nations isn't enough anyway. If Jordan wants some of the West Bank back that's fine, but to pretend that there is a historical Arab people called the Palestinians which effectively is what the PLO have done is fabricating history. Israel is a third the size of Tasmania. To have two separate governments in the region would be ridiculous and disastrous.

I have no problem with a 2 state solution - Israel and Jordan. There is no need for a third nation to be there, especially one which is based on a fabricated history and was born out of the worst acts of terrorism perpetrated in the 20th century.

People talk of the West Bank and Gaza as if they were once 'Palestinian' land, when in actual fact they were Jordanian and Egyptian land respectively until the 1967 war when Israel occupied. No nation called Palestine ever occupied it. I even saw a BBC program which started with the words 'in a nation known as Palestine before Israel's occupation in 1967'. That statement is completely false, it is a lie and can only be explained as anti-Israel propaganda. As I said this isn't my opinion, I'm just dealing with the facts. However, pro-Palestinian propagandists don't like to deal with the facts, they just create facts as it suits them.

I hope that answers the question.
 

evo

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#23
MillerCHF said:
. Before the late 1960s, the thought that an Arab would call themself Palestinian was unheard of.



I hope that answers the question.
Well I hope I'm not coming off as dull here but it appears people who lived in the current state known as Israel were happy to be known as Philistines and post Roman occupation-Palestinians.


DO you consider the wikipedia is lying or have I misinterpretted it?


As I quoted above it's been in use for millenia,yet you say prior to the 1960s no arab called themselves a Palestinian.
 

afc9798

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#24
Frodo said:
Well Jim's reply is crud..and yours is childish as usual.

I never give up, my deluded child.
Again you've thrashed about with your arms and legs, but still failed to land a single blow. As per my original point, go and do your homework, read up and maybe you might be entitled to a view. Until that time, shut up because you are an embarassment. I have yet to see any subject where you have contributed a strong, considered argument. Give up. Simply saying that someone's reply is crud, but not providing a rebuttal, doesn't make it so.
 

Bombers 2003

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#25
MillerCHF said:
Shows how much you know. The Galil was the only area that DIDN'T have anything approaching a Jewish majority. The areas south of Tel Aviv did have a Jewish majority, and in the Negev there was no Arab population to speak of (apart from Bedouins who are happy to be Israeli).
OK.imbecile.
1-I think you'll find that the jewish concentration in Galillee before '48 was higher then anywhere else in Palestine,mainly because of Fishing in the northern inland lake area and agriculture.
2-The Golan Heights were part of Syria till '67 and had/have a islamic majority population.
3- Where south of Tel -Aviv?,Samaria,Judaean Hills where mainly Muslim.The was a large Jewish population in Jerusalem,but more Christians and Muslims.
4-The Bedouins were partially prepared to accept israeli rule and there were many pro-egyptian leaders among the bedouin elders.A few pro -jordanians as well.
 
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