Palestine Peace

Frodo

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Thread starter #1
I think that there is now a possibility of peace.
If moderate leadership comes to Palestine then a moderate leader will come to Power in Israel. It won't happen overnight but at least there is hope.


ps Why call Arafat by his "War name" . He was an Egyptian by birth called Husseini. And he kept the war going for years despite being offered 90% of what he asked for in the 90's and turning it down.
 

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#2
Frodo said:
I think that there is now a possibility of peace.
If moderate leadership comes to Palestine then a moderate leader will come to Power in Israel. It won't happen overnight but at least there is hope.


ps Why call Arafat by his "War name" . He was an Egyptian by birth called Husseini. And he kept the war going for years despite being offered 90% of what he asked for in the 90's and turning it down.
I think it wont happen for a long time .too many angry Israelis and too many hardline Palestinians. If both sides are genuine it will take a sustained effort to weed out those who want to ruin the process..1993 Arafat and Rabin sign an agreement in 18 months Rabin is dead by his own countrymans hand.

First the Israelis need to pacify them and the Palestinians need to block those seeking revenge.

All in all a long slow process .

Arafat is called by that because of convenience and the media...ask the media why they do..we as the public see him from the media and if thats what he chose and the media obliged then why not. Do you know who Harry Webb,Reggie Dwight and Marion Morrison are?
 

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#3
Frodo,

60% of the land, no sharing of Jersualam, no water rights or control of border or airspace and no discussion of 'right of return' is not 90% in fact it was less than what the Palestinians had at that point in time Oh and the Israelis reserved the right to launch incursions at any time. The word 'reservation' comes to mind.

The one thing that has become apparent over the past few days is that the entire world expects the Palestinians now to be granted a full independant state and that the Israelis will not get away with the slight of hand they tried to pull in 2000.

Even the Republican Party mouthpiece FowNews is debating how Bush can faciliate the process toward a state. It is in Bushs interrests to do so as if he can achivce a Fully independant state than he will go a long way toward mending the many bridges he has burnt since 2001 and regain much needed credibility in the eyes of the world.
 

MillerCHF

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#4
Frodo said:
I think that there is now a possibility of peace.
If moderate leadership comes to Palestine then a moderate leader will come to Power in Israel. It won't happen overnight but at least there is hope.


ps Why call Arafat by his "War name" . He was an Egyptian by birth called Husseini. And he kept the war going for years despite being offered 90% of what he asked for in the 90's and turning it down.
Sorry to be a bother Frodo, but what exactly is 'Palestine'? I searched for it on a map, but even after searching maps of the past 2000 years I couldn't find any evidence of an Arab state or entity called Palestine.

I think you mean the Palestinian authority.
 

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#5
Look at a post WW1 map MillerCHF or a Turkish Empire map you will find it there. Didn't see Isreal on those maps though. Went back as far as the Roman Empire didn't see Israel on them either. First pops up in '48. Interestingly the UN map in 48 clearly shows a seperate area for Isreal (about 1/2 of its current area inculding occupied territories) and an area known as Palestine covering the current occupied area. If I remember correctly it was actually called Jewish Palestine.
 

Mr Q

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#6
MillerCHF said:
Sorry to be a bother Frodo, but what exactly is 'Palestine'? I searched for it on a map, but even after searching maps of the past 2000 years I couldn't find any evidence of an Arab state or entity called Palestine.

I think you mean the Palestinian authority.
How many references to "Israel" were there on those maps before 1948?

However, here is a map (by the British) with the words "Palestine" on it in big letters, dating from the early 1946. http://www.mideastweb.org/palestinedetail1.htm

Incidentally, this took less than five minutes to find - I guess its more proof you're more one-eyed than a cyclops.
 

Bombers 2003

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#7
Frodo said:
I think that there is now a possibility of peace.
If moderate leadership comes to Palestine then a moderate leader will come to Power in Israel. It won't happen overnight but at least there is hope.


ps Why call Arafat by his "War name" . He was an Egyptian by birth called Husseini. And he kept the war going for years despite being offered 90% of what he asked for in the 90's and turning it down.
But his parents came from Gaza,so he was actually a Palestinan.
If your parents come from Mars,can we consider you a Jovian?.
 

Bombers 2003

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#8
MillerCHF.
Sorry for a bother,but.
I was looking at a map of the Roman Empire,the otherday.I couldnt find Israel anywhere.However i found Judaea, Nabataea,Samaria,Arabia Felix and Arabia Deserta+ Palestina.So.i'm wondering where the hell is Israel on that map?.
 

Bombers 2003

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#9
Mr Q said:
How many references to "Israel" were there on those maps before 1948?

However, here is a map (by the British) with the words "Palestine" on it in big letters, dating from the early 1946. http://www.mideastweb.org/palestinedetail1.htm

Incidentally, this took less than five minutes to find - I guess its more proof you're more one-eyed than a cyclops.
Mr Q.
The Cyclops is my favorite character in the Odyssey,so did you have to insult him like that.
 
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#10
There's a good reason you don't see Israel on the map before 1948 (unless you back a long way). The land in question was part of the British Mandate in Palestine. In the early 1920's the British imperialists carved off 75% of the Mandate and gave it to an Arabian King (the current king's great grandfather) to set up the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. That state still exists and the majority of its population (60%) are Palestinians (the most notable of who is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi currently of address unknown Iraq). Under Jordian law Jews can't be citizens and can't own land (similalry with Palestinian law today). The British also carved off the Golan Heights and gave them to the French who flicked them off to the Syrians.

In 1947 the United Nations decided to partition off the balance of the Mandate to form a Palestinian Jewish State and a Palestinian Arab State. The surrounding Arab States weren't to keen on this and they attacked the Jews when the British left in May 1948. In the end, the Palestinian Jews decided to call their country "Israel" and the rest of the Mandate after armistice lines were agreed upon were occupied by Egypt (Gaza Strip) and Jordan (West Bank). There was no resistance to this occupation although the Palestinian Arabs were allowed to live in poverty and in camps.

Perhaps, if the Palestinian Jews had decided to call their country "Palestine", the problem might have been solved but the problem was that the word "Palestine" originated from a name given to the region by the Romans who were the nasties who caused the Jews to disperse in the first place.

Anyhow, the fact remains that the Jews got only 20% of historic Palestine and, they exercised their right to self determination by calling their state Israel. Hopefully, we will see peace and a Palestinian State will emerge predominantly in the areas occupied originally by the Egyptians and the Jordanians in 1948.
 

Bombers 2003

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#11
Bananabender said:
Perhaps, if the Palestinian Jews had decided to call their country "Palestine", the problem might have been solved but the problem was that the word "Palestine" originated from a name given to the region by the Romans who were the nasties who caused the Jews to disperse in the first place.
While i agree with your basic arguement here,BananaBender,do you really expect the Romans to have allowed the jewish rebels to remain in Palestine?.
 

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#12
BananaCHF - what's your opinion on Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands being removed? Do you think that this Palestinian "State" should have complete sovereignty over it's territory, or be subject to rights of entry by the Israeli military? Do you believe they should control their own airspace? Do you believe they should have equal access to Jerusalem and its religious shrines, and the right to have their capital wherever they choose?

In short, do you advocate a State or a Protectorate?
 

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Thread starter #13
MillerCHF said:
Sorry to be a bother Frodo, but what exactly is 'Palestine'? I searched for it on a map, but even after searching maps of the past 2000 years I couldn't find any evidence of an Arab state or entity called Palestine.

I think you mean the Palestinian authority.
At the heart of the matter is a large group of individuals that collectively believe they have been disenfranchised and who most would consider have the right to axist in a state of their own. That issue has to be addressed for peace to become reality, no matter how past political maps have been drawn.
 

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Thread starter #14
Bombers 2003 said:
But his parents came from Gaza,so he was actually a Palestinan.
If your parents come from Mars,can we consider you a Jovian?.
Are you saying that those born in Australia by immigrant parents are not Australians? I don't think so.
 
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#15
CharlieG said:
BananaCHF - what's your opinion on Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands being removed? Do you think that this Palestinian "State" should have complete sovereignty over it's territory, or be subject to rights of entry by the Israeli military? Do you believe they should control their own airspace? Do you believe they should have equal access to Jerusalem and its religious shrines, and the right to have their capital wherever they choose?

In short, do you advocate a State or a Protectorate?
That's exactly what was offered to Arafat and he knocked it back at Taba. He even admitted later that it was a mistake.

With a bit of luck they'll get back to that point one day. A little bit depends on the Israelis and a lot depends on the Palestinians. They'll have to do something about those hooded blokes with the weapons. As we know from Bowling Columbine no society is safe if thugs are running around with weapons terrorizing people.
 

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#16
Bananabender said:
Perhaps, if the Palestinian Jews had decided to call their country "Palestine", the problem might have been solved but the problem was that the word "Palestine" originated from a name given to the region by the Romans who were the nasties who caused the Jews to disperse in the first place.
So basically, the name "Palestine" has existed for 2000 years... must have been hard for Miller to avoid all those maps that mentioned it. I suppose since you've pointed out the Romans kicked the Jews out of Palestine, then perhaps the Roman Empire should be responsible for organising them a homeland... what's that, that's ridiculous? Well so is using something from 2 millenia ago as part justification for a position.

In reality, in more recent centuries, the Arabs have been predominant in the resident population of Palestine, yet they don't have a state, while the Jews - a vast minority until recently got a state - after an 1800 year absence. That would be like the Welsh kicking the English out of most of England. I can understand why the Palestinians might be a bit shat off about that.

As for some sense from you and Miller that "Palestinian" is not a real name for a people, what would you call a group of people who have traditionally lived in a land that has been known as Palestine for 2000 years? Sounds to me like you want to take away their name - a tried and tested way of disenfranchising people in history by removing their sense of identity.
 

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#17
If anything, the mere thought of Palestinian peace is somehow a tenuous point at that.

You only need to look at how close the person most likely to lead the area was close to being bumped off over the weekend, by, what appears to be, supporters of another leader.

And that is what I fear the most..with Arafat gone, the place will go nuts and that there'll be lots of violence towards each other, which will only slow the process to peace even further.
 

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#18
Frodo said:
I think that there is now a possibility of peace.
If moderate leadership comes to Palestine then a moderate leader will come to Power in Israel. It won't happen overnight but at least there is hope.


ps Why call Arafat by his "War name" . He was an Egyptian by birth called Husseini. And he kept the war going for years despite being offered 90% of what he asked for in the 90's and turning it down.
there is problem with the extremists in both camps, neither will let it happen, not in this lifetime anyway
 

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#19
Bombers 2003 said:
But his parents came from Gaza,so he was actually a Palestinan.
If your parents come from Mars,can we consider you a Jovian?.
So? On that if your parents are born in Greece and your born in Melbourne..does that make you Greek or Australian? If your parents continue to live in Australia are you Greek or Australian?

Long live multiculturalism
 

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#20
pazza said:
If anything, the mere thought of Palestinian peace is somehow a tenuous point at that.

You only need to look at how close the person most likely to lead the area was close to being bumped off over the weekend, by, what appears to be, supporters of another leader.

And that is what I fear the most..with Arafat gone, the place will go nuts and that there'll be lots of violence towards each other, which will only slow the process to peace even further.


I'm left with the opinion that it's now (at least for the near future) an all or nothing situation. It'll either be "peace" in a short space of time, or escalated violence and turmoil.

But then again, I'm a born and bred westerner, and as such my conditioned way of thinking is not in correlation with the goings on in middle east.

Watching the scenes of Arafats funeral the other night got me thinking of how western intervention ever could have a chance in brokering peace. As westerners we just don't think in the same way.

The guns in the compound were blazing for many different reasons, in celebration, in rememberence, to try and disperse crowds, just because they could, at any given time. My thoughts were "but what about when the bullets come down?". Those people weren't thinking like that.

When the car was ramming through the crowd trying to get to back up to the helicopter I was thinking "why don't they move? someone is going to get hurt" but they weren't thinking like that.

When the officials couldn't open the helicopter door, and the other helicopter couldn't have the coffin removed I was thinking "why don't they just turn on the blasted things on again and fly out till there's some semblence and order and safety and then come back again" but they weren't thinking like that.

Until there are willing parties on both sides without western intervention/dictations there isn't a chance at peace. The USA, the UK, NATO, the UN, whoever........ It's not like a parent chastising a child and being able to shape or force their will on them. As long as westerners are seen as the enemy, the agressors, the controllers, the intollerant, there is no chance of peace.
 

Bombers 2003

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#22
PerthCrow said:
So? On that if your parents are born in Greece and your born in Melbourne..does that make you Greek or Australian? If your parents continue to live in Australia are you Greek or Australian?

Long live multiculturalism
It makes you a australian of Greek parentage,you are what you consider yourself.'Multi culturalism'has NOTHING to do with this,Ignoramus,it's the culture Arafat was brought up that's important in this case.And that was the palestinian culture.
 

MillerCHF

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#23
Mr Q said:
How many references to "Israel" were there on those maps before 1948?

However, here is a map (by the British) with the words "Palestine" on it in big letters, dating from the early 1946. http://www.mideastweb.org/palestinedetail1.htm

Incidentally, this took less than five minutes to find - I guess its more proof you're more one-eyed than a cyclops.
You obviously didn't read a word of what I said. I specifically said an ARAB state or entity called Palestine. What I said is not an opinion, it is a fact. It is the same as if I said there has never been a Jewish state or entity called Australia and then you google searched Australia and said 'look here it is'. You would be wrong because although there is a nation called Australia it isn't and never has been a Jewish state.

When the 'Palestinians' talk of historical Palestine they are making it up. They never wanted a state and Jerusalem was never their capital. When the Jordanians ruled over East Jerusalem from 1948-67 it was the ********hole of the Kingdom. No Muslim dignitary visited because it was insignificant to them. Now that Israel rules it (and gives freedom of religion to all three monotheistic religions) the Palestinians suddenly want it as their capital. Well it aint gonna happen.

How did you go with comprehension back in school Mr Q because I'm guessing you didn't too well?
 

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#24
MillerCHF said:
You obviously didn't read a word of what I said. I specifically said an ARAB state or entity called Palestine.
What a load of quibbling cobblers you write. Your first statement was "what exactly is Palestine?" Now someone produces a nice map of Palestine for you, you quibble over how you mentioned an "ARAB state or entity". Given the Arabs have never managed an independent state in the region, there would hardly have ever been such a thing.

That does not mean that 1) Palestine does not exist or 2) the Arabs weren't there. I can't find any reference to a Jewish state called Israel in that area in the 2000 years leading up to 1948 either, so on your basis for saying Palestine doesn't exist, then neither should Israel. In fact, before 1948, the name Palestine was a more regularly used name than Israel, and if you want to quibble on that, perhaps you should be calling the area Canaan?

MillerCHF said:
What I said is not an opinion, it is a fact. It is the same as if I said there has never been a Jewish state or entity called Australia and then you google searched Australia and said 'look here it is'. You would be wrong because although there is a nation called Australia it isn't and never has been a Jewish state.
There was however an area called "Palestine". I showed you a map of it, and surprise, surprise it covered modern day Israel, the Gaza and West Bank. Since it was called Palestine before the creation of Israel, the people that lived there (regardless of their ethnicity) had the right to call themselves Palestinian.

MillerCHF said:
When the 'Palestinians' talk of historical Palestine they are making it up.
Are they making it up any more than modern day Israel is making up a historical claim to the land? After all, the Jews left (were booted out, whatever) 2000 years ago. A slightly out of date claim if ever I heard one.

The Palestinians were living in the British mandate of Palestine before Israel came into being. They were even the majority of the population (although there are now more Jews), yet they got offered less of the land at the time.

Finally, as you know as well as everyone else, the Jews actually pioneered much of the type of terrorism used today by the Palestinians in an attempt to get a Jewish state in Palestine. Based upon the fact they got what they wanted, can you really blame the Palestinians for learning the lesson well and trying to apply it themselves?

MillerCHF said:
They never wanted a state and Jerusalem was never their capital. When the Jordanians ruled over East Jerusalem from 1948-67 it was the ********hole of the Kingdom. No Muslim dignitary visited because it was insignificant to them. Now that Israel rules it (and gives freedom of religion to all three monotheistic religions) the Palestinians suddenly want it as their capital. Well it aint gonna happen.
So because the Jordanians didn't show interest in Jerusalem, the Palestinans have no rights there? What a load of bull******** that is.

MillerCHF said:
How did you go with comprehension back in school Mr Q because I'm guessing you didn't too well?
You can twist what people say all you like Miller, but insulting me on that one ain't going to work. For a start I got the school English award in year 11, my Uni results in units relating to English were consistently high, and I've never got a mark less than an "A" from year 8 through to the end of my Uni career for an English based subject. I can play the semantics game as well.
 

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#25
So much for the Palestinian civil war. Seems the 'terrorist' nation of Palestine is ensuring a transfer of power in a ery civilised and orderly manner. Hamas is even talking about entering the Political process.

Going to be very hard for Israel to continue to deny the Palestinians a fully independant state.
 
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