Opinion Pass mark 2019 Finals

Pass mark for finals 2019


  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .

Chinacats

Club Legend
Sep 20, 2014
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Given some of the insipid finals efforts in recent years, my 'pass mark' is all about effort and intensity around the ball.

So, if we win contested possessions in each game we play from here, I'll be satisfied with that.

And, given the way we've played our footy in 2019, that will also mean we're hoisting the cup on the last Saturday of this month.

Get it done, Cats!
We won contested ball against woods, so are you happy?
 

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RegHickeyStand

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 29, 2009
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I was sort of kidding when I voted Flag. I'm not now.

I always thought my club went for the win, no matter what, no matter the result. Won't die wondering mentality. And if we aren't in the window, then we are building.

But lately there has been a vibe that the club is concerned with being "relevant", whatever tf that means. I cannot handle that!
 

Goggin Our Best

Premiership Player
May 23, 2011
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I had Geelong finishing 7th in that thread at the start of the year - so thats where i thought they were at

What i would like this week is at least an enjoyable game - like one team kicks 17 goals and the other team kicks 15 - rather than this grinding stuff where goals are as rare as hens teeth

Easy to say it now ( where as when the game is in progress you will be hoping like hell that the Cats win) but probably best if the Eagles prevail - because if Geel play Rich in the PF it will be like the 94GF - Geel will get annihilated . That 10 goal win against Rich will count for nothing - because they had 5-6 topline players out . And just like GWS V Dogs - WB won by by about 10 goals against a depleted GWS - then GWS bring in 5 top line players and flog the Dogs by 10 goals
 

Landgraft

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 18, 2016
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People thinking a competitive prelim in acceptable. It’s whats wrong with this club right there! If you finished first with the highest % and had 2 prelims , and 3 finals campaigns in the past few years and then get Dahlhaus & Rohan to top up then the very least is a grand final appearance. Collingwood have been average all year and then we would have either GWS or Brisbane at MCG. Should be aiming to win the thing! Stuffed it up yet again!
A Grand Final as a pass mark means your expectations are unrealistic, unless you have a generational team.

We are nowhere near a generational team. And trying to invent heightened expectations off of your subjective feelings around our list management is a nonsense.

People hated it but we played a better final on Friday then we had since the 2017 SF. It wasn't all there or satisfying in any sense but the path we've chosen has made us a better team at an acceptable price. Everything else is just noise until we have more to assess the impact of long-term decisions with the long-term actually in view.
 

goyoucatters

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Jan 31, 2008
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We won contested ball against woods, so are you happy?
Apoplectic with rage would be closer to the truth. I was clearly entirely wrong to believe that looking after the contested possessions differential would be enough to ensure success. 16-0 ended up counting for nothing at the pointy end.

Instead, as it was against Sydney in the '16 PF, our lamentable inability to deal with the level of pressure applied by our opponents was more than enough to counter any advantage we may have reaped from being first to the ball more often.

Still, I will qualify my statement here by noting that the nonsensical omission of Stanley from the line-up potentially created plenty of avenues for the Pies to score that may not have been so straightforward had Rhys played. Grundy's utter dominance while being paid no attention whatsoever was completely ridiculous and potentially makes the discussion around our positive contested possession differential less significant than it might have otherwise been. I certainly wasn't factoring in playing the entire game (against the AA ruckman, no less) without a recognised ruck.
 

Biggy_Boy

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 8, 2007
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A Grand Final as a pass mark means your expectations are unrealistic, unless you have a generational team.
I would say it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect a grand final finish in any given year or to anticipate one every year. However, when you finish in the top four 5 out of 7 years, 4 of those being top 2 finishes, and only travel outside of your own home state for one out of 13 finals, then I think in totality, at least one grand final appearance is a pretty fair and realistic expectation. I think if you posed the question to most support groups, "If your team finished at least top 3 five years out of seven, would you expect at least one grand final appearance?", I think it would be a resounding yes. Actually, I think many would scoff at the suggestion of one grand final alone, contending that you should be getting much better conversion than that.

People hated it but we played a better final on Friday then we had since the 2017 SF. It wasn't all there or satisfying in any sense but the path we've chosen has made us a better team at an acceptable price.
How so? We play shit, boring football, and we still lose. I'm struggling to see the gains here.
 

Landgraft

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 18, 2016
5,063
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I would say it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect a grand final finish in any given year or to anticipate one every year. However, when you finish in the top four 5 out of 7 years, 4 of those being top 2 finishes, and only travel outside of your own home state for one out of 13 finals, then I think in totality, at least one grand final appearance is a pretty fair and realistic expectation. I think if you posed the question to most support groups, "If your team finished at least top 3 five years out of seven, would you expect at least one grand final appearance?", I think it would be a resounding yes. Actually, I think many would scoff at the suggestion of one grand final alone, contending that you should be getting much better conversion than that.
Cute thought experiment, not actually relevant.

You don't get to take your chances over again, they're gone now. If it pains you so much to have been in a strong era that never won out then so be it, it doesn't change what a reasonable expectation of this finals series should be.

How so? We play s**t, boring football, and we still lose. I'm struggling to see the gains here.
Do you really think that teams are graded on style, or performance is just a W/L binary? We were more involved throughout, were better positioned to gain ground on our opponent and I would say implemented a tempo/control game plan more successfully. The result is an unfortunate outcome, but I don't think that a team without this weight of expectations to 'atone' for past wrongs would even be particularly upset. Do you think Brisbane preferred their game to ours because their attack was in more aesthetic lines?
 

4quarter_cat

Club Legend
Jun 11, 2013
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This thread was started on the 1st of September, you can't retrospectively change the pass mark. For me it always was playing in the Grandfinal. We let ourselves down badly on Friday. But for a few key moments when we completely screwed the pooch, we win that game.
So pass mark is still playing in a grandfinal, but we just made it harder for ourselves by putting ourselves in a position where we have the beat the team I thought could be the threat to a premiership.
 

Partridge

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2002
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A Grand Final as a pass mark means your expectations are unrealistic, unless you have a generational team.

We are nowhere near a generational team. And trying to invent heightened expectations off of your subjective feelings around our list management is a nonsense.

People hated it but we played a better final on Friday then we had since the 2017 SF. It wasn't all there or satisfying in any sense but the path we've chosen has made us a better team at an acceptable price. Everything else is just noise until we have more to assess the impact of long-term decisions with the long-term actually in view.
Did we or did we not finish the home and away season in top spot?
Had we already beaten Collingwood at the MCG this season?

Or is that subjective?
 

PhilX

Draftee
May 6, 2019
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35
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People thinking a competitive prelim in acceptable. It’s whats wrong with this club right there! If you finished first with the highest % and had 2 prelims , and 3 finals campaigns in the past few years and then get Dahlhaus & Rohan to top up then the very least is a grand final appearance. Collingwood have been average all year and then we would have either GWS or Brisbane at MCG. Should be aiming to win the thing! Stuffed it up yet again!
A competitive prelim is not and should not be the goal.

A Grand Final victory should always be the goal.

But, if, after making every effort to reach that goal, you fall short ... well, that's going to happen more years than it doesn't, for as long as there are other teams out there who are trying just as hard to reach the same goal. If, when you review the season, you consider anything other than a premiership to be failure, you're destined to experience lots and lots of failure.
 

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Chinacats

Club Legend
Sep 20, 2014
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A competitive prelim is not and should not be the goal.

A Grand Final victory should always be the goal.

But, if, after making every effort to reach that goal, you fall short ... well, that's going to happen more years than it doesn't, for as long as there are other teams out there who are trying just as hard to reach the same goal. If, when you review the season, you consider anything other than a premiership to be failure, you're destined to experience lots and lots of failure.
After you finish top it’s a failure
 

Baudolino

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2011
4,346
10,480
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Bump.

Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?

Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
 

JohnZ

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2016
3,142
3,869
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Bump.

Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?

Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
If our Prelim is a replica of our game v Collingwood, or any other Prelim since 2012 it's a fail for this year, because we haven't learned from our mistakes, and we haven't taken on the challenge.

If we play like we did against WCE, or how we played before the Bye, then I'd still hate to lose to Richmond, but at least I could see that the players are having a genuine crack, we've taken our chances and sometimes in footy shit doesn't go your way.

What I would say, is the possibility of playing in a GF at QT and 3QT are my conditional benchmarks for this year. We haven't got close since 2013......
 

catempire

Moderator
Mar 20, 2004
33,529
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Bump.

Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?

Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
I voted GF in the poll because once you finish top and clear of other contenders you have box seated to at least make the GF.

However, once you fall at the first hurdle I think it’s reasonable to reassess what the team is capable of. It’s simply a fact that it’s now a much harder path to make the GF than it was before the QF had been played. That’s reflected in the clear underdog status we now carry. For that reason I now consider a pass mark to be a competitive effort in the Prelim. It will absolutely exceed my expectations if we pull of the win.
 

Baudolino

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2011
4,346
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I voted GF in the poll because once you finish top and clear of other contenders you have box seated to at least make the GF.

However, once you fall at the first hurdle I think it’s reasonable to reassess what the team is capable of. It’s simply a fact that it’s now a much harder path to make the GF than it was before the QF had been played. That’s reflected in the clear underdog status we now carry. For that reason I now consider a pass mark to be a competitive effort in the Prelim. It will absolutely exceed my expectations if we pull of the win.
I can absolutely see where you're coming from even though disagree with that.

I think I would have agreed with your reasoning a few seasons ago, but for me this finals series has to be viewed in the context of a broader pattern of finals failure over the years, and in that light I just cannot accept a competitive prelim as good enough. It will still amount to another one win, two losses finals series, and another year of underperforming in finals relative to our ability. Not making the GF even *once* since 2012 despite four top-two finishes would be an indictment on the club's September record.
 

catempire

Moderator
Mar 20, 2004
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I can absolutely see where you're coming from even though disagree with that.

I think I would have agreed with your reasoning a few seasons ago, but for me this finals series has to be viewed in the context of a broader pattern of finals failure over the years, and in that light I just cannot accept a competitive prelim as good enough. It will still amount to another one win, two losses finals series, and another year of underperforming in finals relative to our ability. Not making the GF even *once* since 2012 despite four top-two finishes would be an indictment on the club's September record.
This is the first year amongst those failures I went into the finals campaign thinking we were a strong chance to win it. So the other years don’t mean much to me at all.

If we bow out this week I will certainly be critical of the wasted opportunity this year. And my primary focus will be on the poor first quarter of the QF as it will be that which has been most costly.
 

year of the cat

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Mar 27, 2006
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This is the first year amongst those failures I went into the finals campaign thinking we were a strong chance to win it. So the other years don’t mean much to me at all.

If we bow out this week I will certainly be critical of the wasted opportunity this year. And my primary focus will be on the poor first quarter of the QF as it will be that which has been most costly.
We well may rue that quarter. Having said that I think we have a better chance of overcoming the Tigers in a prelim after they’ve only played one match in 3 weeks. That first loss may be a blessing in disguise. If we win this Friday we are at the very least a 50/50 chance again of pulling off the flag.
 

catempire

Moderator
Mar 20, 2004
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We well may rue that quarter. Having said that I think we have a better chance of overcoming the Tigers in a prelim after they’ve only played one match in 3 weeks. That first loss may be a blessing in disguise. If we win this Friday we are at the very least a 50/50 chance again of pulling off the flag.
Totally agree with your last sentence.
 

TomsBulgingDisc

Team Captain
Sep 12, 2013
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Bump.

Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?

Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
I've not softened on my position of a flag being pass mark; however, in the context of how the back half of our year has been, in particular that putrid showing in the QF, I'd be content no matter the result this week if our effort is at a maximum. For the love of all things good, please don't let us go out without a whimper.
 

Baudolino

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2011
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This is the first year amongst those failures I went into the finals campaign thinking we were a strong chance to win it. So the other years don’t mean much to me at all.
You didn't think we had a chance in 2013? Our best that year was absolutely amazing, I'd say it was the best football we've played under Scott post-2011. Hawks were great obviously but we easily could have snagged the flag from them, our percentage was basically identical to theirs and we'd only lost one fewer game. Plus The Streak was still active going in to finals so we had the wood over them at the time. We were definitely a strong chance that year.

2016 and 2017 we had much more deeply flawed teams - well below the usual standard of premiership-winning sides - but both those years were extremely weak in terms of the level of the competition. There were no truly great sides either year. So I didn't go in thinking "we're just making up the numbers, we've got no chance here" or whatever. We were flawed but so too were the teams around us. Difference being that whereas other flawed teams (especially the Bulldogs in 2016) *overperformed* relative to their ability, we did the opposite.
 

catempire

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Mar 20, 2004
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You didn't think we had a chance in 2013? Our best that year was absolutely amazing, I'd say it was the best football we've played under Scott post-2011. Hawks were great obviously but we easily could have snagged the flag from them, our percentage was basically identical to theirs and we'd only lost one fewer game. Plus The Streak was still active going in to finals so we had the wood over them at the time. We were definitely a strong chance that year.

2016 and 2017 we had much more deeply flawed teams - well below the usual standard of premiership-winning sides - but both those years were extremely weak in terms of the level of the competition. There were no truly great sides either year. So I didn't go in thinking "we're just making up the numbers, we've got no chance here" or whatever. We were flawed but so too were the teams around us. Difference being that whereas other flawed teams (especially the Bulldogs in 2016) *overperformed* relative to their ability, we did the opposite.
I agree 2013 was the best of them. But our poor rucks and Hawkins’ dicky back really killed us that year. Had we have pinched that Prelim...

Basically agree on 2016 and 2017. The teams that took their chances won and we didn’t. But I wasn’t left feeling “we blew a great chance” in either year.
 

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