Chinacats
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We won contested ball against woods, so are you happy?
Opinion Pass mark 2019 Finals
- Thread starter catempire
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I was sort of kidding when I voted Flag. I'm not now.
I always thought my club went for the win, no matter what, no matter the result. Won't die wondering mentality. And if we aren't in the window, then we are building.
But lately there has been a vibe that the club is concerned with being "relevant", whatever tf that means. I cannot handle that!
I always thought my club went for the win, no matter what, no matter the result. Won't die wondering mentality. And if we aren't in the window, then we are building.
But lately there has been a vibe that the club is concerned with being "relevant", whatever tf that means. I cannot handle that!
I had Geelong finishing 7th in that thread at the start of the year - so thats where i thought they were at
What i would like this week is at least an enjoyable game - like one team kicks 17 goals and the other team kicks 15 - rather than this grinding stuff where goals are as rare as hens teeth
Easy to say it now ( where as when the game is in progress you will be hoping like hell that the Cats win) but probably best if the Eagles prevail - because if Geel play Rich in the PF it will be like the 94GF - Geel will get annihilated . That 10 goal win against Rich will count for nothing - because they had 5-6 topline players out . And just like GWS V Dogs - WB won by by about 10 goals against a depleted GWS - then GWS bring in 5 top line players and flog the Dogs by 10 goals
What i would like this week is at least an enjoyable game - like one team kicks 17 goals and the other team kicks 15 - rather than this grinding stuff where goals are as rare as hens teeth
Easy to say it now ( where as when the game is in progress you will be hoping like hell that the Cats win) but probably best if the Eagles prevail - because if Geel play Rich in the PF it will be like the 94GF - Geel will get annihilated . That 10 goal win against Rich will count for nothing - because they had 5-6 topline players out . And just like GWS V Dogs - WB won by by about 10 goals against a depleted GWS - then GWS bring in 5 top line players and flog the Dogs by 10 goals
Landgraft
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A Grand Final as a pass mark means your expectations are unrealistic, unless you have a generational team.
We are nowhere near a generational team. And trying to invent heightened expectations off of your subjective feelings around our list management is a nonsense.
People hated it but we played a better final on Friday then we had since the 2017 SF. It wasn't all there or satisfying in any sense but the path we've chosen has made us a better team at an acceptable price. Everything else is just noise until we have more to assess the impact of long-term decisions with the long-term actually in view.
Apoplectic with rage would be closer to the truth. I was clearly entirely wrong to believe that looking after the contested possessions differential would be enough to ensure success. 16-0 ended up counting for nothing at the pointy end.
Instead, as it was against Sydney in the '16 PF, our lamentable inability to deal with the level of pressure applied by our opponents was more than enough to counter any advantage we may have reaped from being first to the ball more often.
Still, I will qualify my statement here by noting that the nonsensical omission of Stanley from the line-up potentially created plenty of avenues for the Pies to score that may not have been so straightforward had Rhys played. Grundy's utter dominance while being paid no attention whatsoever was completely ridiculous and potentially makes the discussion around our positive contested possession differential less significant than it might have otherwise been. I certainly wasn't factoring in playing the entire game (against the AA ruckman, no less) without a recognised ruck.
I would say it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect a grand final finish in any given year or to anticipate one every year. However, when you finish in the top four 5 out of 7 years, 4 of those being top 2 finishes, and only travel outside of your own home state for one out of 13 finals, then I think in totality, at least one grand final appearance is a pretty fair and realistic expectation. I think if you posed the question to most support groups, "If your team finished at least top 3 five years out of seven, would you expect at least one grand final appearance?", I think it would be a resounding yes. Actually, I think many would scoff at the suggestion of one grand final alone, contending that you should be getting much better conversion than that.
How so? We play s**t, boring football, and we still lose. I'm struggling to see the gains here.
Landgraft
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Cute thought experiment, not actually relevant.
You don't get to take your chances over again, they're gone now. If it pains you so much to have been in a strong era that never won out then so be it, it doesn't change what a reasonable expectation of this finals series should be.
Do you really think that teams are graded on style, or performance is just a W/L binary? We were more involved throughout, were better positioned to gain ground on our opponent and I would say implemented a tempo/control game plan more successfully. The result is an unfortunate outcome, but I don't think that a team without this weight of expectations to 'atone' for past wrongs would even be particularly upset. Do you think Brisbane preferred their game to ours because their attack was in more aesthetic lines?
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This thread was started on the 1st of September, you can't retrospectively change the pass mark. For me it always was playing in the Grandfinal. We let ourselves down badly on Friday. But for a few key moments when we completely screwed the pooch, we win that game.
So pass mark is still playing in a grandfinal, but we just made it harder for ourselves by putting ourselves in a position where we have the beat the team I thought could be the threat to a premiership.
So pass mark is still playing in a grandfinal, but we just made it harder for ourselves by putting ourselves in a position where we have the beat the team I thought could be the threat to a premiership.
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Can't see us making the GF from here so it's looking like a fail for me. Really screwed up on Friday and now Pies have a great path into the GF playing Lions or GWS at the G which could have been us.
A competitive prelim is not and should not be the goal.
A Grand Final victory should always be the goal.
But, if, after making every effort to reach that goal, you fall short ... well, that's going to happen more years than it doesn't, for as long as there are other teams out there who are trying just as hard to reach the same goal. If, when you review the season, you consider anything other than a premiership to be failure, you're destined to experience lots and lots of failure.
Shell
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Yep same- at least anywhere in the bottom four of the eight- certainly not top of the ladder.
Chinacats
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After you finish top it’s a failure
Bump.
Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?
Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
Just curious: on the back of a rollercoaster two weeks involving a disastrous, humiliating Qualifying Final defeat and a spirited, galvanising Semi Final win, has anyone changed their mind on what they said a pass mark would be pre-finals? Ie has anyone adjuste their proverbial pass mark bar higher or lower?
Personally speaking I still feel the same way: I said anything less than a Grand Final appearance was unacceptable and I stand by that assertion. If anything the first week embarrassment made more strident in that belief. I'd be curious to know if the people who chose the Preliminary Final as an acceptable pass mark genuinely do feel, now that we've arrived at that destination, like a Prelim is a satisfactory result.
If our Prelim is a replica of our game v Collingwood, or any other Prelim since 2012 it's a fail for this year, because we haven't learned from our mistakes, and we haven't taken on the challenge.
If we play like we did against WCE, or how we played before the Bye, then I'd still hate to lose to Richmond, but at least I could see that the players are having a genuine crack, we've taken our chances and sometimes in footy s**t doesn't go your way.
What I would say, is the possibility of playing in a GF at QT and 3QT are my conditional benchmarks for this year. We haven't got close since 2013......
catempire
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I voted GF in the poll because once you finish top and clear of other contenders you have box seated to at least make the GF.
However, once you fall at the first hurdle I think it’s reasonable to reassess what the team is capable of. It’s simply a fact that it’s now a much harder path to make the GF than it was before the QF had been played. That’s reflected in the clear underdog status we now carry. For that reason I now consider a pass mark to be a competitive effort in the Prelim. It will absolutely exceed my expectations if we pull of the win.
I can absolutely see where you're coming from even though disagree with that.
I think I would have agreed with your reasoning a few seasons ago, but for me this finals series has to be viewed in the context of a broader pattern of finals failure over the years, and in that light I just cannot accept a competitive prelim as good enough. It will still amount to another one win, two losses finals series, and another year of underperforming in finals relative to our ability. Not making the GF even *once* since 2012 despite four top-two finishes would be an indictment on the club's September record.
catempire
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This is the first year amongst those failures I went into the finals campaign thinking we were a strong chance to win it. So the other years don’t mean much to me at all.
If we bow out this week I will certainly be critical of the wasted opportunity this year. And my primary focus will be on the poor first quarter of the QF as it will be that which has been most costly.
We well may rue that quarter. Having said that I think we have a better chance of overcoming the Tigers in a prelim after they’ve only played one match in 3 weeks. That first loss may be a blessing in disguise. If we win this Friday we are at the very least a 50/50 chance again of pulling off the flag.
What about the second? ;-)
I've not softened on my position of a flag being pass mark; however, in the context of how the back half of our year has been, in particular that putrid showing in the QF, I'd be content no matter the result this week if our effort is at a maximum. For the love of all things good, please don't let us go out without a whimper.
You didn't think we had a chance in 2013? Our best that year was absolutely amazing, I'd say it was the best football we've played under Scott post-2011. Hawks were great obviously but we easily could have snagged the flag from them, our percentage was basically identical to theirs and we'd only lost one fewer game. Plus The Streak was still active going in to finals so we had the wood over them at the time. We were definitely a strong chance that year.
2016 and 2017 we had much more deeply flawed teams - well below the usual standard of premiership-winning sides - but both those years were extremely weak in terms of the level of the competition. There were no truly great sides either year. So I didn't go in thinking "we're just making up the numbers, we've got no chance here" or whatever. We were flawed but so too were the teams around us. Difference being that whereas other flawed teams (especially the Bulldogs in 2016) *overperformed* relative to their ability, we did the opposite.
catempire
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I agree 2013 was the best of them. But our poor rucks and Hawkins’ dicky back really killed us that year. Had we have pinched that Prelim...
Basically agree on 2016 and 2017. The teams that took their chances won and we didn’t. But I wasn’t left feeling “we blew a great chance” in either year.
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