Paying back the 500 million dollars

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Kwality

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Here's the Richmond financial report


The distinction is that they are clubs/associations limited by guarantee (i.e. they are clubs with a certain number of legal members (varies by club who is a legal member....Collingwood you need to be a social club member for instance) rather than companies limited by shares. The two WA clubs are set up as companies limited by shares and these shares are 100% owned by the WA football commission (I'm pretty sure I have that right)

In practice there is no material difference between how those clubs are run in a real sense beyond somewhat different legal obligations.
Are all the clubs incorporated under The Corporations Act?
In my time the Companies Act did not apply to Associations & not for profits ....

Thanks for the link, still couldnt open it.
 

telsor

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Except those three teams help expand the AFL into new markets so their cost is worth it. North Melbourne and St Kilda cost almost as much but don't offer anything in terms of growing the game.
They help provide the $$$ that pays for expansion...

Oh, and they don't cost nearly as much once you factor in that the 'distribution' includes moneys the aAFL collects on behalf of the clubs, like AFL member and signage and pourage rights at Docklands, which mostly effect Vic clubs.

They also add the the AFLs bottom line in ways that don't come back like letting them have games at Docklands and MCG which puts money in the AFLs pocket.

Let the other clubs pay AFL taxes like that and get back to me.
 

RUNVS

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They help provide the $$$ that pays for expansion...

Oh, and they don't cost nearly as much once you factor in that the 'distribution' includes moneys the aAFL collects on behalf of the clubs, like AFL member and signage and pourage rights at Docklands, which mostly effect Vic clubs.

They also add the the AFLs bottom line in ways that don't come back like letting them have games at Docklands and MCG which puts money in the AFLs pocket.

Let the other clubs pay AFL taxes like that and get back to me.
Except they don't. The extra money the AFL gets for the 9th game wouldn't even cover how much it costs to keep St Kilda and North Melbourne afloat.
 

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telsor

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Arent most clubs under a company structure these days? Tried to access RFCs Annual Report but could not get in, even the BF link was no go. Is it the structure or the mindset of those in charge.
Remember when the Eagles were accused of gouging?


I really dislike the way Richmond does it's financial reports.

I'm sure it's legal, and consistent, etc. but it doesn't really inform or work as a comparison with other clubs very well.
 

telsor

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Except they don't. The extra money the AFL gets for the 9th game wouldn't even cover how much it costs to keep St Kilda and North Melbourne afloat.
Who is talking TV?

I'm talking the money the AFL gets from Docklands, currently as owner, and previously in acquiring the ground for them.
 

NoobPie

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Are all the clubs incorporated under The Corporations Act?
In my time the Companies Act did not apply to Associations & not for profits ....

Thanks for the link, still couldnt open it.
They're all on the wookies's website http://footyindustry.com/files/2019 Reports/Richmond 2019 Annual Report.pdf

I'm not a lawyer or an accountant but I would assume that all AFL clubs would be subject to the corporations act as well as the misc clubs and associations state legislation (for broader governance matters) with the possible exception of the WA clubs
 

The 747

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Silly distinction.

The AFL clubs are largely professionally run from what I can tell, with perhaps 2 or 3 exceptions at anyone time. The fact that most are actual clubs rather than structured as companies is moot
So from what you can tell they are largely professionally run, from what I can tell they are largely not.

Fair enough both are opinions - so to call my distinction silly is kinda dumb.
 

Slax

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Next media rights is is $500million more expensive.
Next media rights will be $500m less than current one. Channel 7 previously issued an ASX release writing down the value of the tv rights, so effective stated that they overpaid for it, whilst Foxtel financial troubles are also well documented.
 

NoobPie

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Next media rights will be $500m less than current one. Channel 7 previously issued an ASX release writing down the value of the tv rights, so effective stated that they overpaid for it, whilst Foxtel financial troubles are also well documented.

The Covid World renegotiated rights deal will be worth less than the current one.

I don't know why people are assuming the next one will be. Actually I do know why - people struggle to understand that just because existing platforms that produce the bulk of the monies under existing structures may not be able to at the same level doesn't mean the value cannot be captured through a different structure
 

NoobPie

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So from what you can tell they are largely professionally run, from what I can tell they are largely not.

Fair enough both are opinions - so to call my distinction silly is kinda dumb.

The reason I called it silly is your distinction appeared to essentially be between "limited by guarantee" versus "limited by shares" distinction (including the latters legal requirement to hold reserves)

The level of professionalism in how clubs are run is surely unrelated to this.

Just my opinion but I think you were just made a rather superficial distinction and so your opinion is also rather superficial. Again, just my opinion
 

Aramis

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Childish comment. The AFL’s collective debt due to Covid-19 is in the 100’s of millions. The loan (or line of credit to be correct) was needed for the AFL and all clubs to survive.
Correct, its not a '$500 million dollar loan' that needs to be paid back in its entirety, its a $500 million dollar line of credit that can be drawn upon... I would be very surprised if the AFL used the entire 500 million dollars at once, more likely there as an insurance blanket.
 

Cotchins Hair Piece

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Correct, its not a '$500 million dollar loan' that needs to be paid back in its entirety, its a $500 million dollar line of credit that can be drawn upon... I would be very surprised if the AFL used the entire 500 million dollars at once, more likely there as an insurance blanket.
Absolutely this. The $500 million in LOC was to ensure the AFL and all clubs survived if the worse case scenario played out. This was,
no games this season and the 2021 season with no crowds.
 

Mat Mann

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Except they don't. The extra money the AFL gets for the 9th game wouldn't even cover how much it costs to keep St Kilda and North Melbourne afloat.
when was the last time StKilda got COLA or an Academy, 8 Friday night games or looked after like Essendon did after their wooden spoon, you b*tch about our clubs but fail time and again to see how well your club is looked after in comparison! Imagine if Sydney got 36c in the dollar only after 30k people turned up to a game.

I'm over it every discussion turns into "shut down struggling Vic club bs", nevermind that the struggling is also a result of 20 yrs of AFL agenda
 

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Kwality

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when was the last time StKilda got COLA or an Academy, 8 Friday night games or looked after like Essendon did after their wooden spoon, you b*tch about our clubs but fail time and again to see how well your club is looked after in comparison! Imagine if Sydney got 36c in the dollar only after 30k people turned up to a game.

I'm over it every discussion turns into "shut down struggling Vic club bs", nevermind that the struggling is also a result of 20 yrs of AFL agenda
Over the 20 years you refer to how many CEOs have the Saints had, how many presidents, how many homes ...... the same questions can be asked of the Hawks or North, the Tiges, Melbourne, the Blues ... call a spade a spade , man up !!
Some clubs have dealt with problems, others havent.

Remember the ball may not be in the AFL court, the line of credit will be activated, the loan covenant will dictate what the AFL can do, & the club office holders will be getting legal advice on their liability if they are spending money they do not have. Gaol is a possibility for wilful breaches.
 

The 747

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The reason I called it silly is your distinction appeared to essentially be between "limited by guarantee" versus "limited by shares" distinction (including the latters legal requirement to hold reserves)

The level of professionalism in how clubs are run is surely unrelated to this.

Just my opinion but I think you were just made a rather superficial distinction and so your opinion is also rather superficial. Again, just my opinion
Your interpretation of my post is incorrect, it was not to do with the structure - it is the philosophy by which the WA clubs run their businesses.

I am not sure how you managed to respond to a concept that was not present in my original post.
 

Mat Mann

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Over the 20 years you refer to how many CEOs have the Saints had, how many presidents, how many homes ...... the same questions can be asked of the Hawks or North, the Tiges, Melbourne, the Blues ... call a spade a spade , man up !!
Some clubs have dealt with problems, others havent.

Remember the ball may not be in the AFL court, the line of credit will be activated, the loan covenant will dictate what the AFL can do, & the club office holders will be getting legal advice on their liability if they are spending money they do not have. Gaol is a possibility for wilful breaches.
fully aware of my club's issues, but tell me why does Docklands have 3 if not 4 differing deals for clubs.... why does the MCG have 1 deal for all clubs? I can own up and cop it sweet if my club fails because of my club's mess, and we've made a bit of it, but when your head is held underwater it's hard to breathe.

it's been said over and over, assisted club, Povo Vic club, blah blah blah, but when one of the 3 "Povo" Vic clubs makes more money from 1 game sold interstate than the entirety of a season at Docklands something is seriously wrong when said 3 clubs have played over half the games at one venue on such a sh*t deal, and actively have the AFL working against improving that deal, for a decade and a half almost.

we just want fair, just like you WA guys want fair
 

Kwality

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Mat Mann I agree with you on the stadium deal 100% - that the actual dollars are not released, who pays what $s, says it all. It goes back to the Stadiums cherry picking the clubs leaving others 'in the cold'. The AFL could fix the problem IF they wanted, preferring to hide behind additional grants without justification/transparency.

The failure to fix it & the lack of transparency says you have reason to be vocal.

I'd be careful to buy the dollars earned by transferring/selling games, I understand Tas for the Hawks its commercial, not so sure about other games, how much do the AFL really kick in.
 

Mat Mann

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Mat Mann I agree with you on the stadium deal 100% - that the actual dollars are not released, who pays what $s, says it all. It goes back to the Stadiums cherry picking the clubs leaving others 'in the cold'. The AFL could fix the problem IF they wanted, preferring to hide behind additional grants without justification/transparency.

The failure to fix it & the lack of transparency says you have reason to be vocal.

I'd be careful to buy the dollars earned by transferring/selling games, I understand Tas for the Hawks its commercial, not so sure about other games, how much do the AFL really kick in.
no idea tbh, but our NZ games were said to earn more than the entire season at Docklands.
the China game earned us close to if not over $1m when including sponsors that joined for the event.
 

Kwality

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Who is talking TV?

I'm talking the money the AFL gets from Docklands, currently as owner, and previously in acquiring the ground for them.
Are you assuming the AFL are making money out of Docklands or can you direct us to the Annual Report that supports that proposition?
 

NoobPie

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fully aware of my club's issues, but tell me why does Docklands have 3 if not 4 differing deals for clubs.... why does the MCG have 1 deal for all clubs? I can own up and cop it sweet if my club fails because of my club's mess, and we've made a bit of it, but when your head is held underwater it's hard to breathe.

it's been said over and over, assisted club, Povo Vic club, blah blah blah, but when one of the 3 "Povo" Vic clubs makes more money from 1 game sold interstate than the entirety of a season at Docklands something is seriously wrong when said 3 clubs have played over half the games at one venue on such a sh*t deal, and actively have the AFL working against improving that deal, for a decade and a half almost.

we just want fair, just like you WA guys want fair
The MCG doesn't have one deal for all clubs. Collingwood has a special deal and is actual specifically mentioned (ie playing 14 games) in the AFL's contract with the MCC
 

telsor

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Are you assuming the AFL are making money out of Docklands or can you direct us to the Annual Report that supports that proposition?
Do you really think they aren't?

Previous owners were clearly making money, clubs aren't doing any better from the new arrangements (going by their annual reports), so the money must be going somewhere....
 

NoobPie

Norm Smith Medallist
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Your interpretation of my post is incorrect, it was not to do with the structure - it is the philosophy by which the WA clubs run their businesses.

I am not sure how you managed to respond to a concept that was not present in my original post.
The idea that you could discern between the "philosophy by which...clubs run their business" is ridiculous
 

Mat Mann

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Are you assuming the AFL are making money out of Docklands or can you direct us to the Annual Report that supports that proposition?
are you saying the AFL can't make money on 4 games a week at Docklands yet Geelong can make close to $1m on a fortnightly game, or the MCG guarantees its tenents 100K every game.

not sure how this assumption that the costs of Docklands are so much higher than other stadiums esp. with how many games are played there


The MCG doesn't have one deal for all clubs. Collingwood has a special deal and is actual specifically mentioned (ie playing 14 games) in the AFL's contract with the MCC
there is a games quota yes but is there a $ difference in returns per head? as far as I can research there is no indication that there is.
vs Docklands, MCG tenants are guaranteed $100k regardless and the returns are around 44c vs Docklands 36c(base) and once the crowd reaches 30-40k the returns ramp up markedly vs Dockland flat rate
 

Kwality

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no idea tbh, but our NZ games were said to earn more than the entire season at Docklands.
the China game earned us close to if not over $1m when including sponsors that joined for the event.
NZ gave it the sars for a reason & I've never been able to verify the dollars paid.
Same for China, dont buy it & some well informed Port fans have real doubts too.

Back to Docklands, the clubs under the thumb need to act together to take on the AFL, people know the truth, they come & go from the clubs & the AFL ... find a fair dinkum journo to pull it together, someone who understands the numbers/nuances not a footy/sports journo, IF its the conspiracy claimed there is a real story there.

There has to be a chance there is no conspiracy, no story.
 

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