Religion Pell Guilty!

[BruceFromBalnarring]

This, to my untrained laymans eye, is quite obviously the tactic.
The key witness, (who is a survivor, not a f***ing victim PLEASE), will not be immune to the media shitstorm the likes of Bolt, Devine, Craven et al have created.
It will be having an immense impact on him and I very much doubt that he will be willing to go through this again IF it goes to re-trial. And I don't blame him one bit!
And Pell will walk and these pieces of shit will revel in his 'innocence".

I'm further astounded that over the course of yesterday even more people have jumped to the conclusion that Pell 'couldn't have done it'.
Because...mob (in)justice.
F***ing spare me this bullshit please.

I'm pretty sure the survivor didn't give evidence in the second trial, and I doubt he would in a third. His evidence was just replayed from the first trial.

In the event of an unsafe verdict though, as opposed to the other two grounds of appeal, I'm not sure it would result in a retrial. The evidence has been heard. The Court of Appeal would have to be of the overwhelming view that the jury have come to an unreasonable finding based on the evidence before it. If that is the case, I'm not sure a retrial would be the outcome. I think the CoA would just send Pell on his way. I'm not certain of this though.

The other two grounds of appeal would result in a retrial though. I think the second ground relating to the presentation of an animation to the jury is weak. The third ground relating to the selection of the jury itself is intriguing. I'd love to see just what is behind that.

 

[Pessimistic]

I've thought long and hard about this since December. And I think it is "No". It's not just about the church, and it's not just about Pell.

If there has been a miscarriage of justice here it is at least in part due to an overwhelming media "Campaign" (campaign is not the right word but every journo and his or her dog have expressed opinions about Pell and about the Catholic Church, most of them negative). You can't just sit back and allow justice to be determined in this way. It already drives politics. It already drives even footy. The Justice system must absolutely resist.

You hint it should go the other way. it should not lean either way. I'm saying dont 'resist' for the sake of it.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I've thought long and hard about this since December. And I think it is "No". It's not just about the church, and it's not just about Pell.

If there has been a miscarriage of justice here it is at least in part due to an overwhelming media "Campaign" (campaign is not the right word but every journo and his or her dog have expressed opinions about Pell and about the Catholic Church, most of them negative). You can't just sit back and allow justice to be determined in this way. It already drives politics. It already drives even footy. The Justice system must absolutely resist.

It is an uneasy position and like you ive been thinking about it for some time. Your conclusion is probably the right one from a pure sense but pragmatically im not sure its the right result for the Church

It needs a clean slate.

 

[Pessimistic]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...o-accusations-against-pell-idUSKCN1QG1JQ?il=0

Vatican to open own investigation into accusations against Pell


VATICAN - " We've got top men working on it right now !! "
AUSTRALIA ( Leaning forward ) - "....Who ? "
VATICAN - "...TOP men... "

Should be told by the courts to get stuffed if it wants court confidential information. Like they do the other way round.
They will be, after all, the defendants in many civil cases

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

It is an uneasy position and like you ive been thinking about it for some time. Your conclusion is probably the right one from a pure sense but pragmatically im not sure its the right result for the Church

It needs a clean slate.

If I thought that Pell going away, justifiably or not, would provide a "clean slate" for the Catholic Church or even conservatives more broadly, I'd be more inclined, regrettably, to say Pell should wear it for the greater good.

But I don't think this is an isolated matter. It isn't just Pell. It isn't just about child abuse. Drawing lines in the sand simply doesn't work. It's just conceding ground for the next onslaught.

 

[Strange Cat]

I’m still amaze that people can not accept that Pell is guilty and that it must be a miscarriage of justice

That’s so offensive I cannot even fathom that line of thinking

Put yourself in the survivor shoes and imagine reading this shit, what more do they need to do to be believed and find justice

**** me dead I’m so mad

 

[RupieDupie]

...every journo and his or her dog have expressed opinions about Pell and about the Catholic Church, most of them negative).

Is there a valid reason as to why people have negative views of the Catholic Church?

 

[Colonial]

Is there a valid reason as to why people have negative views of the Catholic Church?

Yes

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[RupieDupie]

How come Bolt, who only met Pell a few times and doesn't hardly even know the guy, is so incensed at this, yet he isn't going as hard in defending the ATO guy who is facing the same sentence as Ivan Milat for blowing the whistle on ATO shenanigans?

 

[Craven Morehead]

I’m still amaze that people can not accept that Pell is guilty and that it must be a miscarriage of justice

That’s so offensive I cannot even fathom that line of thinking

Put yourself in the survivor shoes and imagine reading this shit, what more do they need to do to be believed and find justice

**** me dead I’m so mad

Mate, walk away from it for a while. I couldn't face this thread, or any media coverage, from about lunchtime yesterday when he withdrew his bail application.
I'd had enough and needed a break.

 

[Chief]

Inappropriate satirical interlude?

 

[Colonial]

How come Bolt, who only met Pell a few times and doesn't hardly even know the guy, is so incensed at this, yet he isn't going as hard in defending the ATO guy who is facing the same sentence as Ivan Milat for blowing the whistle on ATO shenanigans?

If Pell was Muslim he would be demanding the death sentence be brought back and to ban the religion.

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[Pessimistic]

If Pell was Muslim he would be demanding the death sentence be brought back and to ban the religion.

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Bolt is so predictable he'd be saying the courts are so bias a muslim would have got off

 

[Strange Cat]

Mate, walk away from it for a while. I couldn't face this thread, or any media coverage, from about lunchtime yesterday when he withdrew his bail application.
I'd had enough and needed a break.

The survivor had the guts to face not only the shitstorm of the media but also the might of the church both financially and politically, and is then cross examined by the best defence lawyer in the country ...and gets a conviction

And yet people still don’t believe him

Unbelievable, what more do survivors have to do to be believed??

 

[Craven Morehead]

I'm pretty sure the survivor didn't give evidence in the second trial, and I doubt he would in a third. His evidence was just replayed from the first trial.

In the event of an unsafe verdict though, as opposed to the other two grounds of appeal, I'm not sure it would result in a retrial. The evidence has been heard. The Court of Appeal would have to be of the overwhelming view that the jury have come to an unreasonable finding based on the evidence before it. If that is the case, I'm not sure a retrial would be the outcome. I think the CoA would just send Pell on his way. I'm not certain of this though.

The other two grounds of appeal would result in a retrial though. I think the second ground relating to the presentation of an animation to the jury is weak. The third ground relating to the selection of the jury itself is intriguing. I'd love to see just what is behind that.

Like I said, I'm a layman. However, from your explanation there still is a chance that he may be required to testify again, which will be incredibly traumatic if he has the guts to do it again.

The second point of appeal is intriguing to me with Richter spitting the dummy over not being able to do a digital presentation in closing. To me at least, he was desperately trying to shut down the point I have made all along...
How did the witness have intricate knowledge of the sacristy?
The third point is incredible. They had every opportunity to cull potential jurors prior to the trial, but didn't. Why bring it up as appeal point?

 

[Craven Morehead]

The survivor had the guts to face not only the shitstorm of the media but also the might of the church both financially and politically, and is then cross examined by the best defence lawyer in the country ...and gets a conviction

And yet people still don’t believe him

Unbelievable, what more do survivors have to do to be believed??

I genuinely share your frustration and anger over this.
This is personal for the both of us and others in this thread.
I've been sorely tempted to go postal on a few occasions, but that would only result in a ban, and I believe our voices need to be heard as the bullshit is starting to get neck deep.

 

[RupieDupie]

If Pell was Muslim he would be demanding the death sentence be brought back and to ban the religion.

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In stories that came out "this" week, there was actually one where an innocent person is potentially going to get a sentence only reserved for mass murderers, and that was the ATO Whistleblower. If Bolt is now all about truth, justice and standing up for the little guy...

 

[Del191229]

This, to my untrained laymans eye, is quite obviously the tactic.
The key witness, (who is a survivor, not a f***ing victim PLEASE), will not be immune to the media shitstorm the likes of Bolt, Devine, Craven et al have created.
It will be having an immense impact on him and I very much doubt that he will be willing to go through this again IF it goes to re-trial. And I don't blame him one bit!
And Pell will walk and these pieces of shit will revel in his 'innocence".

Mate, please look after yourself - I'm not a survivor but I do know from journo work just how much impact media on this stuff has on people. Maybe take a break, and remember, 99 per cent of people have your back here. Seriously, people are completely behind survivors and their demands for justice.

Happily, another mate, this one very much William Street, is of the view that the Court of Appeal will find it hard to knock over the verdict short of of some egregious legal error emerging.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say it survives.

 

[Colonial]

In stories that came out "this" week, there was actually one where an innocent person is potentially going to get a sentence only reserved for mass murderers, and that was the ATO Whistleblower. If Bolt is now all about truth, justice and standing up for the little guy...

Bolt only knows about the little guy when he looks at his shoe to see what he is stepping on.

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[A Cut Above]

The survivor had the guts to face not only the shitstorm of the media but also the might of the church both financially and politically, and is then cross examined by the best defence lawyer in the country ...and gets a conviction

And yet people still don’t believe him

Unbelievable, what more do survivors have to do to be believed??

For those who inhabit their own reality bubbles in which the church must be protected at all costs, no standard of evidence will ever be enough to convince them.

 

[its free real estate]

If Pell was Muslim he would be demanding the death sentence be brought back and to ban the religion.

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If Pell was a left leaning Catholic he'd do the same, short of proposing banning the religion. The only reason he has affinity for Pell is the bloke has gone off the deep end in loathing towards left wingers and his stance on climate change. He's on the tipping point of entering Alex Jones territory.

 

[Strange Cat]

For those who inhabit their own reality bubbles in which the church must be protected at all costs, no standard of evidence will ever be enough to convince them.

Sadly I don’t doubt that

If the appeal is rejected I can see the usual still clinging to their held beliefs that he couldn’t possible rape a child

It’s just frustrating to see it sorry

 

[outabounds]

What I find abhorrent is the fact that somebody with the stature of being one of our past Prime Ministers, thinks it is appropriate to write a character reference for a man found guilty of sex offenses. Incredibly poor judgement and just shows how out of touch John Howard is.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Mate, please look after yourself - I'm not a survivor but I do know from journo work just how much impact media on this stuff has on people. Maybe take a break, and remember, 99 per cent of people have your back here. Seriously, people are completely behind survivors and their demands for justice.

Happily, another mate, this one very much Williams Street, is of the view that the Court of Appeal will find it hard to knock over the verdict short of of some egregious legal error emerging.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say it survives.

Cheers mate, but I'm all good after having a break yesterday.
I cannot express enough my thanks for the support I have received in this thread and via PM's. Thanks to you all.
I hope your mate is right, if only to validate the incredible courage the survivor has shown throughout this ordeal.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I’m still amaze that people can not accept that Pell is guilty and that it must be a miscarriage of justice

That’s so offensive I cannot even fathom that line of thinking

Put yourself in the survivor shoes and imagine reading this shit, what more do they need to do to be believed and find justice

**** me dead I’m so mad

Fair points and totally respect this position.

To be honest i don't know what to believe. Been following this for a while and initially thought this case was weak noting Pell had been accused previously and charges had been dropped. Now im not so sure. The evidence as you say was compelling enough for a jury to convict.

Ive also got a bit of a personal stake in all this having been a boarder at st Patrick's Ballarat back in the 80s which has had a sad history. Nothing ever happened to me but know of some kids who had been abused by Christian Brothers. Thing is when at the school you always heard whispers about various brothers and priests as peds. But never heard this at any time about Pell. He was known as a careerist, cold aloof etc but not a fiddler. That doesnt mean anything really i guess but it perhaps frames why i have initially at least believed him to be innocent.

At the end of the day you have to have faith that our justice system has produced the correct verdict which in this case has found him guilty.