Politics Perfidious Albion - The Crimes of The English Empire known as "the United Kingdom"

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Seeds

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The Spanish 'lost' their so-called colonies centuries ago. Had the English not colonised North America, Spain's influence wouldn't be any greater than it what it currently is. Their hold/claim on the American colonies were always somewhat flimsy and gave them up in their early 1800s without much of a fight.
we are talking about events 400 years ago not less than 200. If spain and portugal share the spoils of the entire American continent rather then just the south their wealth and power would of been significantly greater and basically unstoppable.
 

King Brown

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we are talking about events 400 years ago not less than 200. If spain and portugal share the spoils of the entire American continent rather then just the south their wealth and power would of been significantly greater and basically unstoppable.
The Spanish were far too interested in what was going on in Europe, and only wanted gold from their overseas possessions (which actually had a negative effect on the Spanish economy).

The Brits understood that they could trade goods plundered from their territories into Europe and become profitable that way.
 

randyzany

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we are talking about events 400 years ago not less than 200. If spain and portugal share the spoils of the entire American continent rather then just the south their wealth and power would of been significantly greater and basically unstoppable.
You're overestimating the hold that Iberian countries had in the Americas, like I said previously it had always been fairly flimsy. From the outset they relied pretty heavily on indigenous allies to overthrow the ruling groups of the time. And Old World diseases did a better job of 'cleansing' the indigenous population than the sword or some other supposed superior European technology did anyway.

And that process was gradual, it took decades if not centuries for the Spanish-speaking biracial ethnic group to come prominence across the Americas and absorb the remaining indigenous cultures. The colonies Spain had in the Americas proved far too much for them to control; adding more would've meant that Spain's decline and claims over the American colonies would've come/ended sooner not lasted longer.

Spain's and England's approach/mindset to colonising the Americas was very different and it's a mistake to assume Spain would have achieved similar outcomes to England had the English stayed home. It wasn't really the English that 'conquered' North America it was their descendants who'd settled in the Eastern coast of North America there for hundreds of years and finally decided to expand West acquiring what were sparsely populated and poorly defended territories by Mexico.
 
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MaddAdam

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"British Empire", get it right:mad:
Anyway the world wouldn't be civilised and we wouldn't be enjoying British culture and probably be living in poverty without it. I'd be grateful if I were you....
Lol, "civilised". You know the Greeks and Romans developed the underpinnings of our civilisation while the British were living in trees.

There are some elements of British culture I like, notably the satire and long form written creative stuff.

I like a lot of modern British music too,but that is largely the result of African American and Afro Caribbean British culture.

Leni Riefenstahl made some nice films too.

And no, the British Empire is no such thing. It is and always has been an English empire that first colonised neighbours (Wales, Ireland, Scotland) too small to resist subjugation by the warlike tribe next door, a nasty violent lot that breed like rats and think and are as vicious as rats.

If "British culture" is so good, why has everywhere the English have turned up fought them and then broke free of them (with various levels of success?)

India was richer, more too technologically advanced and more "civilised" then England when it's first interactions with the poor, savagely sectarian literally pirate state pariah of Europe began.

Through sheer bloody minded murder and deviousness ... the very title of this thread comes from an Indian fed description of England ... the pirate kingdom (queendom at the start) robbed India of its wealth, killed tens of millions, reduced life expectancy and generally destroyed the joint.

What did India get in return? Cricket and a bureaucracy. Wow, British culture
 

MaddAdam

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Empire is of itself brutal and oppressive.

The British were brutal and opprssive, but not quite as bad as the Spanish or the French. The Belgians probably take the prize for most bastardly empire campaigners. I don't know enough about the Germans or the Dutch.
British and Spanish about par although Brits did it to more people in more places for longer.

French a step below that, and also weren't as beastly to their neighbours. Indeed, the English kept attacking them for hundreds of years because in typical English fashion they claimed parts of France as their great great great great grandad was from there.

Belgians in Congo massively brutal, but that an odd situation.

But the Brits conducted successful genocides - Tasmanian Aboriginals.

Next level
 

MaddAdam

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The Spanish were far too interested in what was going on in Europe, and only wanted gold from their overseas possessions (which actually had a negative effect on the Spanish economy).

The Brits understood that they could trade goods plundered from their territories into Europe and become profitable that way.
Like the gangsters they are they got their start robbing Spanish treasure ships.

They then did more than plunder territories and trade into Europe.

In India they literally destroyed the world leading Indian textile industry - smashing the looms, murdering the artisans - and stole the designs. They then used the near slave labour of the dark satanic mills and slave grown cotton to trade into Europe
 

MaddAdam

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Nah. Black musicians get too much credit for pop music.
The Stones themselves admit they were ripping off black acts.

The truly distinctly British contributions to electronic music stem from Afro Carribean commmunties - trip hop, drum and bass, grime, dubstep.

Pretty much all contemporary pop references those bass sounds and sampling techniques.
 

MaddAdam

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Yep. But the Spanish already had problems gorging on the looted money that flowed into the coffers of their aristocracy.
Have you seen Elizabeth: The Golden Age?

That illustrates nicely just how fragile the English state was, how reliant on its state sanctioned pirates to then act as a navy.

But it also shows how you say, Spain's extreme wealth distorted their thinking, turning into a kind of Catholic Taliban, like Saudis now, rich,powerful, exporting their religious stance violently, but at a far bigger scale.
 

King Brown

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The Stones themselves admit they were ripping off black acts.
Stones and Zeppelin ripped off other artists, but rock and roll is birthed from Appalachian communities. Based on English folk music. It's a back and forth.
The truly distinctly British contributions to electronic music stem from Afro Carribean commmunties - trip hop, drum and bass, grime, dubstep.

Pretty much all contemporary pop references those bass sounds and sampling techniques.
Grime and dubstep are CCRU products.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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The Stones themselves admit they were ripping off black acts.

The truly distinctly British contributions to electronic music stem from Afro Carribean commmunties - trip hop, drum and bass, grime, dubstep.

Pretty much all contemporary pop references those bass sounds and sampling techniques.
Metal, including Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Motorhead and the rest of the then-'New Wave of British Heavy Metal' wouldn't be what it is without the blues...

Interesting thread, by the way. I have too much to say about this subject, which is why I might shut up for now.
 

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MaddAdam

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No comment, less said about that the better
But do you not think it is an excellent example of the dark side of England's rise to power and subsequent behaviour?

The real issue with the English now is they refuse to be honest about their past, which means they can't understand their present, so they've just gone and screwed their medium term future with Brexit.
 

Dadadadaaaaaa

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But do you not think it is an excellent example of the dark side of England's rise to power and subsequent behaviour?

The real issue with the English now is they refuse to be honest about their past, which means they can't understand their present, so they've just gone and screwed their medium term future with Brexit.
I do agree on that bit but I'm not sure how they were dishonest? Many Brits would be proud of the empire that they built (which is why the nostelgia of empire kicked in when voting for Brexit). Until the 1940's they had more advanced technology than many of their colony's, had the best ships around the world and developed a law which many countries still proudly follow today, Australia being one of them. Yes I don't agree with how many people were treated from slavery or how the British Raj was run but at the end of the day you have to put your own country first and Britain knew their military might and knew they were more advanced than most countries so for them to get the best spices, the best water, the best territory they had to do whatever it took. I'm not saying its right but most nationalist Brits would be pretty proud for their country.

Australia and Canada btw are arguably the 2 most liveable countries in the world and it isn't any wonder they basically still run by British rule except their now self governed. Many other countries, nationalities, races continue to take advantage of civilisation that Britian created. They may have not have been the first country to bring civilisation, but they definitely advanced it to what we live in today.

Obviously once WW2 arrived and America (who are still virtually British remember) built new technology and developed the best planes and bombs, Britain, the Royal Navy and its empire were always going to be stuffed. But yeah in short, Britain will never be a genuine superpower again, but there is no reason Brits shouldn't be proud of their past
 

Gough

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Metal, including Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Motorhead and the rest of the then-'New Wave of British Heavy Metal' wouldn't be what it is without the blues...

Interesting thread, by the way. I have too much to say about this subject, which is why I might shut up for now.
The Clash would be nothing without reggae, they were what happened when punks smoked spliffs instead of doing whiz.
 

King Brown

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But do you not think it is an excellent example of the dark side of England's rise to power and subsequent behaviour?

The real issue with the English now is they refuse to be honest about their past, which means they can't understand their present, so they've just gone and screwed their medium term future with Brexit.
The problem with the English is that they aren't unrepentant, they're all Hugh Grant - we're dreadfully sorry about that Empire thing. They should be both honest about what they did and unapologetic.

Yes we had an Empire, and yes we killed millions, but so what. That's what people do.
 

Procrastinator35

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Metal is sh*t though.
Yep....Some people never get over the angry teenager tirade stage....All angst, zero culture.

To be fair to the Poms though, they've produced some brilliant literary giants....And their language is the most Democratic on earth, given that it is so pliant, flexible & accommodating of almost every other language.

I mean Shakespeare, Milton, Locke, Smith, Austen.....The Magna Carte, English Common Law, The Separation of Church & State, The Man on The Clapham Omnibus....These are no mean feats.

And I say these things begrudgingly as I'm A Haggis, so I'm supposed to hate them.
 

smokingjacket

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The problem with the English is that they aren't unrepentant, they're all Hugh Grant - we're dreadfully sorry about that Empire thing. They should be both honest about what they did and unapologetic.

Yes we had an Empire, and yes we killed millions, but so what. That's what people do.
They do both, often at the same time, which I find infuriating.

It's amazing that when Shashi Tharoor presented the salacious parts of his book at the recent Australian arts festivals, people loudly gasped as he explained Churchill's role in the Indian famines. These are Australia's cultural and political elite, completely unaware up until this point of Churchill deep disdain for just about everyone outside of top 3/5 of the English nobility and the wealthiest Americans.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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They do both, often at the same time, which I find infuriating.

It's amazing that when Shashi Tharoor presented the salacious parts of his book at the recent Australian arts festivals, people loudly gasped as he explained Churchill's role in the Indian famines. These are Australia's cultural and political elite, completely unaware up until this point of Churchill deep disdain for just about everyone outside of top 3/5 of the English nobility and the wealthiest Americans.
Completelety unaware... or just giving Mr Tharoor good ol' stage gasps and OH NO HE DIDN'T!s so beloved of the Great British Pantomimes of years gone by?
 

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