Preview Peter Crimmins Medal 2019

[Simon Crawshay]

Why Hawthorn need to axe more of their ageing stars

The addendum to any discussion of Hawthorn’s 2019 list is the injury to Brownlow medalist Tom Mitchell. Hawthorn struggled in his absence early, with…

www.theroar.com.au

For those that haven't read this article I recommend it.
Gives a reasoned, impartial view of our list.
Also note the props given to Frawley as the best pure Key Position Defender in the league and the critical analysis of Stratton value as a mid sized lock down defender with no offensive / rebounding ability. Hard to argue with I would suggest.

 

[grumbleguts]

Yes because the locals on this board have more credibility than the coach and assistant coaches mate. No one picked Gibson to win it in 2015

It's a different system. A person can be in the top five only 3 or 4 times hence not feature well in the yabby, but be in the top 6 every other game and win it.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Okay let's make this really straight forward.
Who here thinks that across the entirety of the season Ben Stratton was on average one of our best 10 players over 2019?
Every game I watched he was consistently in the bottom 3 (both statistically and general impact on the game) apart from a handful of games towards the end of the season in which he performed well.
For him to have finished top 10 in the B&F after a season like that is flat out weird.
And you're point about Gibson is somewhat incognourous as although not many on Big Footy would have picked him as the winner of the Crimmins medal the years he won he was widely recognised by all and sundry as having excellent years across those seasons (making the all Australian squad of 40, racking up 30 possession games, etc) and he was up against some handy footballers (Mitch, Hodgey, etc).

Ask yourself one simple question. What metrics are the coaches using and the answer is self evident. What Ben was doing for the team in the coaches eye was a lot more than what the general public perceive him to be doing. Its the only LOGICAL answer unless your trying to insinuate some sort of bias. IF that's the case then don't bother

 

[Nick the Pig]

At face value Strats didn't seem to have a great individual year. However the defence as a unit was outstanding. If Strats is deemed the leader of this defensive unit then I can see how the coaches might have rated his performances more highly than us. Internally the club would know this kind of impact more than the fans watching from the stands.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Ask yourself one simple question. What metrics are the coaches using and the answer is self evident. What Ben was doing for the team in the coaches eye was a lot more than what the general public perceive him to be doing. Its the only LOGICAL answer unless your trying to insinuate some sort of bias. IF that's the case then don't bother

I will ask you one simple question. Was Ben Stratton in your opinion one of our top 10 best performing players in 2019?
Remember if he is then you (or the coaching panel, whoever) have deemed him to have been better performed than more than half the team?
I don't care what prisim you choose to view that decision, it makes no sense.

 

[Zack]

I will ask you one simple question. Was Ben Stratton in your opinion one of our top 10 best performing players in 2019?

No! but votes to cover that up by ppl we believe in, who made those votes, does kinda sort that decision and also explain why we were 9th in saying that.

TBH I could live with the votes overall but not the captaincy ones. So I agree with you. We made a mistake, we'll make more nothing wrong with that; I would argue all clubs have made more than Clarko… but why are we suddenly covering them up when we've never don that b4? Strange decision.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

No! but votes to cover that up by ppl we believe in, who made those votes, does kinda sort that decision and also explain why we were 9th in saying that.

TBH I could live with the votes overall but not the captaincy ones. So I agree with you. We made a mistake, we'll make more nothing wrong with that; I would argue all clubs have made more than Clarko… but why are we suddenly covering them up when we've never don that b4? Strange decision.

Exactly!
Making Stratts top 10 in the B&F is like a form of revisionist history to cover up how monumental a stuff up making him captain was.
I don't think a lot of people realise how much it affected our season having possibly the worst performing player across all 44 players across multiple games as our captain.
You can't tell me that players don't get a lift when they see a captain such as Cripps bust out of the centre, shrug off 3 tackles and kick a goal.
When did Stratts ever give this? All he gave was the monumental embarrassment of Pinchgate.
As you state their is no shame in making a mistake but if you don't acknowledge it was a mistake then you don't learn from it. It is also not the Hawthorn way.
Bite the bullet, admit it was a failure and give the captaincy to Big Boy or JOM and let Stratts concentrate on regaining his form.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I will ask you one simple question. Was Ben Stratton in your opinion one of our top 10 best performing players in 2019?
Remember if he is then you (or the coaching panel, whoever) have deemed him to have been better performed than more than half the team?
I don't care what prisim you choose to view that decision, it makes no sense.

No! but votes to cover that up by ppl we believe in, who made those votes, does kinda sort that decision and also explain why we were 9th in saying that.

TBH I could live with the votes overall but not the captaincy ones. So I agree with you. We made a mistake, we'll make more nothing wrong with that; I would argue all clubs have made more than Clarko… but why are we suddenly covering them up when we've never don that b4? Strange decision.

Exactly!
Making Stratts top 10 in the B&F is like a form of revisionist history to cover up how monumental a stuff up making him captain was.
I don't think a lot of people realise how much it affected our season having possibly the worst performing player across all 44 players across multiple games as our captain.
You can't tell me that players don't get a lift when they see a captain such as Cripps bust out of the centre, shrug off 3 tackles and kick a goal.
When did Stratts ever give this? All he gave was the monumental embarrassment of Pinchgate.
As you state their is no shame in making a mistake but if you don't acknowledge it was a mistake then you don't learn from it. It is also not the Hawthorn way.
Bite the bullet, admit it was a failure and give the captaincy to Big Boy or JOM and let Stratts concentrate on regaining his form.

So what ure saying is that the coaches did this to cover up their errant choice of captain? What is this Micham's u16 3rds. Mate they go through hours of tape. Stuff you and i wouldnt see. Its amazing to hear you say that. Would clarko who holds our club above all else go to such lengths. Its more likely they bloody know and see more than u can see when watching a game of football.

 

[Gralin]

Exactly!
Making Stratts top 10 in the B&F is like a form of revisionist history to cover up how monumental a stuff up making him captain was.
I don't think a lot of people realise how much it affected our season having possibly the worst performing player across all 44 players across multiple games as our captain.
You can't tell me that players don't get a lift when they see a captain such as Cripps bust out of the centre, shrug off 3 tackles and kick a goal.
When did Stratts ever give this? All he gave was the monumental embarrassment of Pinchgate.
As you state their is no shame in making a mistake but if you don't acknowledge it was a mistake then you don't learn from it. It is also not the Hawthorn way.
Bite the bullet, admit it was a failure and give the captaincy to Big Boy or JOM and let Stratts concentrate on regaining his form.

Prior to and during his suspension our defense was allowing 79 points per game and were 5-9
Upon his return we allowed 61.75 points per game and went 6-2
We lost both games he didn't play.

He came back a different player and our defensive cohesion upon his return was much better. We were better all over the ground, I'm not suggesting that was all down to him but with Clarko getting the defence sorted is always the first step.

 

[Brishawk]

Ask yourself one simple question. What metrics are the coaches using and the answer is self evident. What Ben was doing for the team in the coaches eye was a lot more than what the general public perceive him to be doing. Its the only LOGICAL answer unless your trying to insinuate some sort of bias. IF that's the case then don't bother

I’d be amazed if there was no bias in voting. Stratton has always polled better than it appears he should have. Was picked for captain but not by the players popular vote. Clearly the coaches value what he brings to the team but it’s hard to swallow the logical position of why he poles well as purely a rational outcome given how terrible he was in the first half of the season.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I’d be amazed if there was no bias in voting. Stratton has always polled better than it appears he should have. Was picked for captain but not by the players popular vote. Clearly the coaches value what he brings to the team but it’s hard to swallow the logical position of why he poles well as purely a rational outcome given how terrible he was in the first half of the season.

For a player to average 9 possessions, 3 marks and 1.5 tackles a game and finish top 10 in a B&F there must be some kind of bias going on.
Clarko is a great coach but he is all too human and as prone to emotional bias as we all are.
And I notice that none of my detractors have yet to confirm that they agree that Stratts had a good year (as a top 10 finish would indicate) or was better overall that Frawley?

 

[Brishawk]

For a player to average 9 possessions, 3 marks and 1.5 tackles a game and finish top 10 in a B&F there must be some kind of bias going on.
Clarko is a great coach but he is all too human and as prone to emotional bias as we all are.
And I notice that none of my detractors have yet to confirm that they agree that Stratts had a good year (as a top 10 finish would indicate) or was better overall that Frawley?

Stratton is structurally important. I’m not going to claim otherwise. But it’s a weird outcome in my view. Gibbo wasn’t our best player in 2015. That was Rioli. But Gibbo was still pretty good. Fact is clarko loves defenders that help make the zone work so he gives them votes. Stratton does a lot with his voice etc. to bring others into the game. But yeah I’m still skeptical about how he was supposedly better than Frawley. I’ll just put it down to the voting system I think.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Stratton is structurally important. I’m not going to claim otherwise. But it’s a weird outcome in my view. Gibbo wasn’t our best player in 2015. That was Rioli. But Gibbo was still pretty good. Fact is clarko loves defenders that help make the zone work so he gives them votes. Stratton does a lot with his voice etc. to bring others into the game. But yeah I’m still skeptical about how he was supposedly better than Frawley. I’ll just put it down to the voting system I think.

I know of atleast three games where he would of polled votes in the first half of the season adelaide, brisbane and port adelaide and he had a reasonable second half of the season remember it isnt 3 2 1. Everyone should know by now that there is a weekly review after a game win or lose. They go through the tapes and have team and one on ones. Its what he is measured on each game. If it was just clarko giving him the votes then yes u could say there is more potential for bias.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Quoting possession numbers for a medium lockdown defender seems pretty odd for me. Stratton has never been a big possession winner, but he’s been a very good defender in the same breath.

There’s no conspiracy here...maybe, just maybe Stratton wasn’t as bad as some thought....and maybe when he made the occasional error that this site blew up as “OMG, Stratton is having a mare! Get him off!!” the coaches looked pass that and saw another three things he had done that helped the Sicily get free, helped Frawley cover a tall or helped Hardwick transfer the play in a switch.

 

[Davo23]

Quoting possession numbers for a medium lockdown defender seems pretty odd for me. Stratton has never been a big possession winner, but he’s been a very good defender in the same breath.

There’s no conspiracy here...maybe, just maybe Stratton wasn’t as bad as some thought....and maybe when he made the occasional error that this site blew up as “OMG, Stratton is having a mare! Get him off!!” the coaches looked pass that and saw another three things he had done that helped the Sicily get free, helped Frawley cover a tall or helped Hardwick transfer the play in a switch.

Exactly, everybody has a conspiracy theory!

And why aren't posters criticising Worpel's win?
Is it also coaches' bias?
Are the coaches trying to justify giving Worpel No 5?

I would back our coaches' assessment against anyone here (including me!)

.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Quoting possession numbers for a medium lockdown defender seems pretty odd for me. Stratton has never been a big possession winner, but he’s been a very good defender in the same breath.

There’s no conspiracy here...maybe, just maybe Stratton wasn’t as bad as some thought....and maybe when he made the occasional error that this site blew up as “OMG, Stratton is having a mare! Get him off!!” the coaches looked pass that and saw another three things he had done that helped the Sicily get free, helped Frawley cover a tall or helped Hardwick transfer the play in a switch.

Absolutely the coaches don't knee jerk on individual plays

 

[Slick]

Coaches will more often than not give out votes based on who best executed the instructions given to them. I'm sure this is very much the case for why Stratton polled as well as he did in the Crimmins. He was asked to do certain things, things that we are not privy to, and he did those things well. I think it's as simple as that.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Quoting possession numbers for a medium lockdown defender seems pretty odd for me. Stratton has never been a big possession winner, but he’s been a very good defender in the same breath.

There’s no conspiracy here...maybe, just maybe Stratton wasn’t as bad as some thought....and maybe when he made the occasional error that this site blew up as “OMG, Stratton is having a mare! Get him off!!” the coaches looked pass that and saw another three things he had done that helped the Sicily get free, helped Frawley cover a tall or helped Hardwick transfer the play in a switch.

IN Strattons good years he would still average around 13 to 14 possessions so to drop off from mid teens to under ten is a big reduction (almost 50 percent).
Also to average only 1.5 tackles a game as a pure lock down defender is poor.
And it is so much the errors during the game that I judged him harshly on this year but the long stretches of play where he didn't impact the game at all.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Exactly, everybody has a conspiracy theory!

And why aren't posters criticising Worpel's win?
Is it also coaches' bias?
Are the coaches trying to justify giving Worpel No 5?

I would back our coaches' assessment against anyone here (including me!)

.

That is an odd comparison to make.

Worpel has been widely recognised both internally and externally as having an excellent year (as the stats back up) so why would anyone be questioning it?

I am questioning why a player who I (and many others both on this board) believe has had an ordinary year at best could finish top 10 in the clubs best and fairest.

That is the only result I am questioning out of the vote count.

 

[Brishawk]

I know of atleast three games where he would of polled votes in the first half of the season adelaide, brisbane and port adelaide and he had a reasonable second half of the season remember it isnt 3 2 1. Everyone should know by now that there is a weekly review after a game win or lose. They go through the tapes and have team and one on ones. Its what he is measured on each game. If it was just clarko giving him the votes then yes u could say there is more potential for bias.

Before I respond I’d like to highlight I’m not suggesting any conspiracy.
That doesn’t mean there is no bias involved. The kpis may well be biased. Or the assessment of those kpis. When we look at the pcm results since 2012 it appears very hard for a forward to make it into the top 5.
Roughy 2
Rioli 2
Buddy 1
Gunston 1
Breust 1
Poppy 0
Hale 0

compared with
Gibson 2
Hodge 4
Burgoyne 2
Stratton 1
Birchall 3
Hardwick 2
Sicily 1
Lake 0
Burton 1

it might just be that it’s easier to meet kpis as a defender than a forward.