Phil Ivey Must Pay Back $10million

GreyCrow

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Thread starter #1
Interested in peoples thoughts on this.

ATLANTIC CITY -- A federal judge has ruled that poker star Phil Ivey and a friend must repay $10 million they won at the Borgata in 2012 while employing a technique called edge-sorting to improve their odds.

The damages include $9.6 million they won edge-sorting while playing baccarat during four visits, plus $504,000 Ivey won at Craps with his winnings from Baccarat.

U.S. District Judge Noel Hillman had ruled in October that while Ivey and Cheng Yin Sun did not commit fraud, they did breach their contract with the casino and were liable for damages.

The breach was their failure to abide by the state's Casino Controls Act, which prohibits marking cards. While they did not physically mark the cards,
they noticed and used tiny inconsistencies on the backs of the cards to tell whether high- or low-value cards were coming up, the judge said.

I have a concern over this in that the cards were not marked by either player but a flaw in the design and build of the deck. Yes, both Ivey and his friend Sun took advantage of the flaw, nor did they mention this flaw to the casino.

Myself I am not a fan of casinos and the ways they , first try and separate me from my money, but when there is a big win they think of connivance or malfunction. If the deck was poor then that was their quality control issue not Ivey and his friends.
 

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Goodo73

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#2
Agreed. I don't see how Ivey & Co are at fault here.
 

AmericanCrow

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Okay..what am I missing? In plain terms they cheated. They recognized the cards were inconsistent and used it to their advantage in violation of a law.

Whether the casino, the card manufacturer, the dealer, or the pit boss "caught" them and/or should have noticed the irregularities themselves is beside the point.

They knew it was wrong, did it anyway and got nailed--end of story.

By the way...I don't care what the US Federal Judge called it...in the end it is cheating. Certainly in the UK the Judge there had zero issue describing Ivey's scheme as "cheating".
 
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AmericanCrow

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#5
What contract did they have with the casino? It states they did not break the law but a contract.
“By using cards they caused to be maneuvered in order to identify their value only to them,” the judge wrote, “Ivey and Sun adjusted the odds of Baccarat in their favor. This is in complete contravention of the fundamental purpose of legalized gambling as set forth by [New Jersey’s Casino Control Commission.] Ivey and Sun’s violation . . . constitutes a breach of their mutual obligation with Borgata to play by the rules” of the state’s law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-it-back-judge-rules/?utm_term=.e31db72e1b52
 

AmericanCrow

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#6
I would assume they mean an "implied contract" which exists anytime anyone walks into a casino, including you and I
 

GreyCrow

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Thread starter #7
I don't doubt your knowledge far exceeds my own AC but I wouldn't be rushing into court over the term ''Implied Contract''. I don't think they had any obligation to tell the casino the cards were faulty. That they knowingly utilized this knowledge is another factor.

If I win at roulette because I notice the croupier consistently rolls into a quarter of the table is it my role to inform the casino their table may be faulty or that the croupier is a poor roller?
 

AmericanCrow

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#8
I don't doubt your knowledge far exceeds my own AC but I wouldn't be rushing into court over the term ''Implied Contract''. I don't think they had any obligation to tell the casino the cards were faulty. That they knowingly utilized this knowledge is another factor.

If I win at roulette because I notice the croupier consistently rolls into a quarter of the table is it my role to inform the casino their table may be faulty or that the croupier is a poor roller?
It was a poorly written decision GC. The judge essentially said they cheated in violation of the Act except he didn't want to say they cheated so he went thru a convoluted word exercise to achieve his desired result.

At the end of the day, casinos are supposed to play by the gaming rules established by the state and you, as a player, are expected to follow gaming rules inside the casino. Judge found Ivey and his cohort to be in violation of those rules by doing what he did and rigging the odds in his favor.
 

AmericanCrow

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#9
I don't doubt your knowledge far exceeds my own AC but I wouldn't be rushing into court over the term ''Implied Contract''. I don't think they had any obligation to tell the casino the cards were faulty. That they knowingly utilized this knowledge is another factor.

If I win at roulette because I notice the croupier consistently rolls into a quarter of the table is it my role to inform the casino their table may be faulty or that the croupier is a poor roller?
My knowledge doesn't far exceed anyone's GC. That much I can assure you.

I think we both know the common sense answer to your question---no you are not obligated to report it so long as you don't win a couple million dollars. Once you start using your knowledge to shake down the Casino we both know what the answer is. ;)
 

AmericanCrow

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#10
I must say I found the whole thing fascinating as it was a manufacturer's error so every single pack produced allowed an advantage. Couple that with the unique rules of baccarat that allow you to maximize the imperfections of the deck to shake out a few million dollars.

It is damn impressive
 

AmericanCrow

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#11
Lesson really is greed....probably gets away with it if he spaced out his trips over the course of a year and capped his walk away money at say 500-700k a trip.

His problem was he made it obvious something was up.
 

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GreyCrow

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Thread starter #12
Lesson really is greed....probably gets away with it if he spaced out his trips over the course of a year and capped his walk away money at say 500-700k a trip.

His problem was he made it obvious something was up.
Well when you are a big name who makes his living by winning big then stopping is difficult. I have walked away from funny tables after $1000. Then again its all perspective I guess.
 

AmericanCrow

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#13
I don't have those problems...I am not smart enough to figure out imperfections, etc....

Casinos see me they walk me anywhere I want to go! ;)
 

AmericanCrow

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#14
You will enjoy this story GC. I am in no way, shape or form a gambler. So I was out in Vegas for my sister's wedding a few years ago (they live out there) and had time after golfing in the morning to sit down at a Black Jack table.

It was a Saturday, so college football games were on and I was watching that whilst playing at the table (by myself). I had an ace face down and the dealer dealt me a ten. Having lost the first 6 straight hands I played--I was already zoning out and in my mind counted my cards as 11 and asked for another card.

A King came...so yes, I hit 21 twice in a row.

Now you know why I am dumber than a box of rocks GC. :D
 

GreyCrow

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Thread starter #15
You will enjoy this story GC. I am in no way, shape or form a gambler. So I was out in Vegas for my sister's wedding a few years ago (they live out there) and had time after golfing in the morning to sit down at a Black Jack table.

It was a Saturday, so college football games were on and I was watching that whilst playing at the table (by myself). I had an ace face down and the dealer dealt me a ten. Having lost the first 6 straight hands I played--I was already zoning out and in my mind counted my cards as 11 and asked for another card.

A King came...so yes, I hit 21 twice in a row.

Now you know why I am dumber than a box of rocks GC. :D
Always knew college football would send you broke.

I am not a huge gambler, haven't been inside a casino in over 10 years, more an interested observer in odds and methods to increase opportunities. I like puzzles and can spot patterns in the chaos ( at times) . Casinos here have big boards which display the last 10/15 numbers rolled on a table. If you know where the numbers are placed on the table you can spot patterns. Some gamblers concentrate on quarters ie the croupier is as disinterested as you are and automatically rolls the wheel at the same strength and drops the ball at the same spot to create this quartering pattern.

I don't card count as a habit but I like to sit in the last spot on the blackjack table to give me an idea of the cards in the deck and make a decision based on my cards and the ones exposed. ie if a run of small cards goes around the table and I need a small I will back off as the odds suggest a high card is more likely.
 

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#17
Okay..what am I missing? In plain terms they cheated. They recognized the cards were inconsistent and used it to their advantage in violation of a law.

Whether the casino, the card manufacturer, the dealer, or the pit boss "caught" them and/or should have noticed the irregularities themselves is beside the point.

They knew it was wrong, did it anyway and got nailed--end of story.

By the way...I don't care what the US Federal Judge called it...in the end it is cheating. Certainly in the UK the Judge there had zero issue describing Ivey's scheme as "cheating".
Have only just read this post,most accurate shoot the ******s down post ever, anything after this is dribble,but I will read on,CONGRATS
 
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