Teams Philadelphia Eagles - The Gold Standard

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BeinPurplenGreen

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Just so everyone knows - all those player moves actually weren't down to Chip, who actually apparently also hasn't had much extra role in player selection. So he says. All them scouts and player personnel people are to blame, not Chippuah-Chup...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/28/chip-kelly-i-dont-think-were-a-bad-football-team/

"To say I'm a head coach and a general manager, I am not the general manager. I don't negotiate contracts. I don't do any of that stuff. I just have a say of who is on the 90-man roster as opposed to the 53-man roster. But once the season starts, I have always had control of the 53-man roster, so that has not changed at all. Nor has there been any more time devoted to any of that because that's not the way it is set up here."​

Also, we are now officially eligible for Hard Knocks next pre season. Chupa's ego will be tested bigtime - I reckon last preseason he'd have jumped at it, notsomuch this year...
 

rumply

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Think twice before ditching Chip Kelly

A WORD OF forewarning: What you are reading is not a prescription. I have no opinion, at least not in the concrete, ultimate sense. The only think I’ve decided for sure about Chip Kelly’s future with the Eagles is that I am glad I’m not the one responsible for making the decision (that is, all other things unchanged. I don’t mean to suggest that Jeff Lurie should hesitate to contact my representatives if he has a dollar figure he’d like to discuss).


Anybody who sees this thing in black and white probably hasn’t looked at it long enough. That, or they are making the same mistake they made when they decided for good that Donovan McNabb, Andy Reid and, say, Sam Bradford should not return. Mostly, they aren’t considering the alternatives, and that one fan base’s “inexcusable” season is another’s dream.

Case in point: Chances are, at a similar juncture of some previous season, a younger version of you decided that the Eagles needed to move on from their personnel chief. But what if Jeffrey Lurie decides to hasten Kelly’s departure by reinstalling Howie Roseman as the man with ultimate control over the short- and long-term future of the roster? Is the franchise better off with the guy who was present for the 2010-11 drafts that submarined their future or the guy who was here for Marcus Smith and Josh Huff? Is there a correct answer? If there isn’t, then that’s the point. Because the first thing that I am reasonably sure of is that change for the sake of change is not the right move in this instance.

Like it or not, Kelly has some significant strengths.

Receivers don’t drop balls they aren’t in position to catch. Running backs don’t fumble away games they aren’t in position to change. Kickers don’t choke away wins they aren’t in position to claim. In the Eagles’ loss to the Redskins on Saturday, they had plenty of opportunities to make plays that would have left them fighting for a playoff berth in Week 17. That’s more opportunities than were had by the Jaguars, or the Chargers, or the Browns, or the Lions, or the Bucs, or the Falcons, or the Bills, or the Bears, or the Titans, or the 49ers, or the Raiders. Those are 11 of the teams that have conducted coaching searches since the start of the one that led the Eagles to Kelly. While he might not be Bruce Arians or — for the sake of the argument — Andy Reid, he also isn’t Mike McCoy or Gus Bradley, all of whom were hired in the same offseason.

Facts: In Kelly’s first season, the Eagles scored 60 more points than they allowed. In his second season, they scored 74 more points than they allowed. This year, they are at minus-58, which is still better than Reid in 2012 (minus-164) and 2005 (minus-78) and 1999 (minus-85), all of which followed a six-year stretch in which Rich Kotite and Ray Rhodes went minus-22, 0, minus-20, plus-22, minus-55, and minus-183.


Again, things could be worse.

The strongest argument in favor of regime change is similar to what it was for Reid; that there’s a ceiling with Kelly that he is unlikely to raise, thanks mostly to his fundamentalist adherence to a trio of tragically flawed beliefs:

1) Tempo never makes talent worse.

2) Culture always makes talent better.

3) Talent is largely dependent on scheme.

If Kelly refuses to yield on these three precepts, then one can certainly envision a scenario in which he spends another year building a roster on their foundation and then ejects high above Austin or southern California and leaves the Eagles’ fan base stuck with the smoldering wreckage.


It’s a serious concern, and if Kelly resists the installation of a proven NFL personnel man who does not report directly to him, then Lurie should start fielding offers from interested teams.

But there’s an argument to be made that this whole mess actually began when Lurie put a careerist who had never won anything in charge of an organization full of proud football men raised in a culture that distrusts anybody who appears to have achieved a position without the substance to back it up.

The notion that Chip Kelly was ever going to take orders from Roseman seems incredibly naive in hindsight. Roseman’s actual evaluative abilities are almost irrelevant: What he always lacked was cachet, a reason for his subordinates to defer to his opinion, a track record that enabled him to say, “Look, I know we disagree on this, but I think my track record suggests that there’s a better-than-even chance that my preferred course of action will prove to be the correct one.”

That’s not an indictment of the current personnel boss. It’s just reality. Ed Marynowitz joined the Eagles’ personnel department in 2012 after four years at Alabama. Experience at the NFL level matters, particularly for a person responsible for watching a player compete against college athletes and then envisioning how he compares to players competing against professional athletes.

Here’s another of Kelly’s strengths: He is a good evaluator of talent when he sees it in front of him. He saw Nick Foles was not an NFL starter. He saw DeSean Jackson was one-dimensional. He knew LeSean McCoy was racking up mileage. He knew his guards were not good enough. He signed Malcolm Jenkins. He moved Walter Thurmond to safety. He tried to re-sign Jeremy Maclin. He knew he needed help at linebacker.

Kelly whiffed on DeMarco Murray and Miles Austin, but both looked like desperation moves born of necessity, and both might have been vetoed by a person with a greater feel for baseline NFL talent, a person with the ability and authority to say, “Hey, I know what you’re trying to accomplish, here are some options that might actually help you.”

Sam Bradford has developed into a legitimate NFL starter under Kelly. He has always had talent. Now he looks like a guy operating with the right coaching and scheme. Do not discount that.

The worst thing the Eagles can do is throw that away without exhausting all other options. Even then, they need to have a better option in place.
 

PhatHQ

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Think twice before ditching Chip Kelly

A WORD OF forewarning: What you are reading is not a prescription. I have no opinion, at least not in the concrete, ultimate sense. The only think I’ve decided for sure about Chip Kelly’s future with the Eagles is that I am glad I’m not the one responsible for making the decision (that is, all other things unchanged. I don’t mean to suggest that Jeff Lurie should hesitate to contact my representatives if he has a dollar figure he’d like to discuss).


Anybody who sees this thing in black and white probably hasn’t looked at it long enough. That, or they are making the same mistake they made when they decided for good that Donovan McNabb, Andy Reid and, say, Sam Bradford should not return. Mostly, they aren’t considering the alternatives, and that one fan base’s “inexcusable” season is another’s dream.

Case in point: Chances are, at a similar juncture of some previous season, a younger version of you decided that the Eagles needed to move on from their personnel chief. But what if Jeffrey Lurie decides to hasten Kelly’s departure by reinstalling Howie Roseman as the man with ultimate control over the short- and long-term future of the roster? Is the franchise better off with the guy who was present for the 2010-11 drafts that submarined their future or the guy who was here for Marcus Smith and Josh Huff? Is there a correct answer? If there isn’t, then that’s the point. Because the first thing that I am reasonably sure of is that change for the sake of change is not the right move in this instance.

Like it or not, Kelly has some significant strengths.

Receivers don’t drop balls they aren’t in position to catch. Running backs don’t fumble away games they aren’t in position to change. Kickers don’t choke away wins they aren’t in position to claim. In the Eagles’ loss to the Redskins on Saturday, they had plenty of opportunities to make plays that would have left them fighting for a playoff berth in Week 17. That’s more opportunities than were had by the Jaguars, or the Chargers, or the Browns, or the Lions, or the Bucs, or the Falcons, or the Bills, or the Bears, or the Titans, or the 49ers, or the Raiders. Those are 11 of the teams that have conducted coaching searches since the start of the one that led the Eagles to Kelly. While he might not be Bruce Arians or — for the sake of the argument — Andy Reid, he also isn’t Mike McCoy or Gus Bradley, all of whom were hired in the same offseason.

Facts: In Kelly’s first season, the Eagles scored 60 more points than they allowed. In his second season, they scored 74 more points than they allowed. This year, they are at minus-58, which is still better than Reid in 2012 (minus-164) and 2005 (minus-78) and 1999 (minus-85), all of which followed a six-year stretch in which Rich Kotite and Ray Rhodes went minus-22, 0, minus-20, plus-22, minus-55, and minus-183.


Again, things could be worse.

The strongest argument in favor of regime change is similar to what it was for Reid; that there’s a ceiling with Kelly that he is unlikely to raise, thanks mostly to his fundamentalist adherence to a trio of tragically flawed beliefs:

1) Tempo never makes talent worse.

2) Culture always makes talent better.

3) Talent is largely dependent on scheme.

If Kelly refuses to yield on these three precepts, then one can certainly envision a scenario in which he spends another year building a roster on their foundation and then ejects high above Austin or southern California and leaves the Eagles’ fan base stuck with the smoldering wreckage.


It’s a serious concern, and if Kelly resists the installation of a proven NFL personnel man who does not report directly to him, then Lurie should start fielding offers from interested teams.

But there’s an argument to be made that this whole mess actually began when Lurie put a careerist who had never won anything in charge of an organization full of proud football men raised in a culture that distrusts anybody who appears to have achieved a position without the substance to back it up.

The notion that Chip Kelly was ever going to take orders from Roseman seems incredibly naive in hindsight. Roseman’s actual evaluative abilities are almost irrelevant: What he always lacked was cachet, a reason for his subordinates to defer to his opinion, a track record that enabled him to say, “Look, I know we disagree on this, but I think my track record suggests that there’s a better-than-even chance that my preferred course of action will prove to be the correct one.”

That’s not an indictment of the current personnel boss. It’s just reality. Ed Marynowitz joined the Eagles’ personnel department in 2012 after four years at Alabama. Experience at the NFL level matters, particularly for a person responsible for watching a player compete against college athletes and then envisioning how he compares to players competing against professional athletes.

Here’s another of Kelly’s strengths: He is a good evaluator of talent when he sees it in front of him. He saw Nick Foles was not an NFL starter. He saw DeSean Jackson was one-dimensional. He knew LeSean McCoy was racking up mileage. He knew his guards were not good enough. He signed Malcolm Jenkins. He moved Walter Thurmond to safety. He tried to re-sign Jeremy Maclin. He knew he needed help at linebacker.

Kelly whiffed on DeMarco Murray and Miles Austin, but both looked like desperation moves born of necessity, and both might have been vetoed by a person with a greater feel for baseline NFL talent, a person with the ability and authority to say, “Hey, I know what you’re trying to accomplish, here are some options that might actually help you.”

Sam Bradford has developed into a legitimate NFL starter under Kelly. He has always had talent. Now he looks like a guy operating with the right coaching and scheme. Do not discount that.

The worst thing the Eagles can do is throw that away without exhausting all other options. Even then, they need to have a better option in place.
Very well put mate!
I think if the O line is strengthened & they get a Cooks type to take the top of a defence it would open up more space for all of those dropped catches to not happen. Kelly has put together, almost, a brand new team on offence & defence with special teams the only real constant from last season to this.
Another offseason to get the chemistry into the team & a better Eagles outfit under Bradfords leadership will be back in the hunt.
Someone will be accountable for a lost season, whether it is players or a coach, to satisfy the "why" question & everyone will move on. Kelly should not be worried until next seasons H&A results... The same will cost him his job.
 

rumply

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Very well put mate!
I think if the O line is strengthened & they get a Cooks type to take the top of a defence it would open up more space for all of those dropped catches to not happen. Kelly has put together, almost, a brand new team on offence & defence with special teams the only real constant from last season to this.
Another offseason to get the chemistry into the team & a better Eagles outfit under Bradfords leadership will be back in the hunt.
Someone will be accountable for a lost season, whether it is players or a coach, to satisfy the "why" question & everyone will move on. Kelly should not be worried until next seasons H&A results... The same will cost him his job.

I'd like to be able to claim it, there's a link in the title to the website. I do agree with most of what he says, not much a coach can do when receivers keep dropping catchable balls, the QB keeps getting rushed etc, & yeah, someone has to pay, I just don't think that should be Chip yet. First & foremost, they've got to get the OL right but if they **** that up again it wont be just Chip shown the door I suspect.
 

Southerntakeover

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Well now, didn't expect that to happen so suddenly. I think it was necessary.

The most concerning thing for the future was that people who Chip had head hunted to fit his 'system' just didn't appear to be NFL players. Huff for instance. If his system favoured talents like him over guys like Jackson, then it stood little chance for success.
 

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Southerntakeover

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Right move for you guys IMO and Chip was never going to be a good NFL coach.

College Yes but not NFL.
I think Chip could be a good NFL coach, if appropriate constraints are put on him. One day we might look back and regret that we had him and let him go.

And yet despite that, I also firmly believe he never would have achieved what he might elsewhere in Philly. Too many mistakes that he made. Too much damage to the team 'culture' (ironically) in the years that preceded it. You cannot waltz into a franchise, disrespect all time great players, and not do damage. He'd burned so much capital that it was impossible to have faith, and forgive any minor hiccups.

He might get a fresh start somewhere else, and he might learn from his mistakes here.
 

Southerntakeover

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No franchise QB,a terrible defense and still got double digit wins in his first two seasons. Blowing up the roster and doing a terrible job as GM is the reason he got sacked.
Ignores the effect that his coaching has had on the defense, which he had three years to improve.

No coincidence that the defense wore down in the last two seasons, noting the long standing criticisms of ignoring time of possession in the NFL.
 

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Ignores the effect that his coaching has had on the defense, which he had three years to improve.

No coincidence that the defense wore down in the last two seasons, noting the long standing criticisms of ignoring time of possession in the NFL.
I hope you are as harsh on the next poor soul who takes over this hopeless franchise. Lurie is now in his 22nd year as owner and still no Super Bowl. I'm not convinced he has any idea what he is doing either.
 

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I'm making a temporary comeback to the NFL board to comment on this.

Me? I'm glad it happened. Even before this disastrous season, and going back to the offseason about 22 months ago, I felt myself losing my team. Kelly, for reasons that I always believed were to do with power rather than personnel, blew up everything that was "our" team.

People will talk about the big names ad nauseum - Maclin, McCoy, Jackson. But they were only a small part of the problem. The bigger problem was giving up "heart and soul" players like Herremans, Matthis, Cole, and perhaps to a lesser extent Foles.

And for what? Nearly every single move he made in player personnel failed to pay off - on the FA side, Murray, Mathews, Maxwell; on the trading side Alonso and Bradford; on the drafting side Smith, Huff, Agholar, Matthews to an extent - none of them worked. (I know he was only formally given oversight last season, but you can't tell me he didn't have a hell of a lot of oversight the season before.) I'm sure I'm missing one or two players, but the only personnel move of the last 2 seasons that I would suggest has worked was Sproles.

Which brought me to this season, when even dating back to the first couple of weeks, I felt myself falling out of love with my team. It wasn't the typical being angry and frustrated - it was deeper than that, it was a complete antipathy towards my team. I've still watched them every week, but I found myself rolling my eyes moreso than swearing at the tv. I'd just lost the will to care, because having given up our heart and soul players, who was I really cheering for (or not)? I couldn't even really enjoy the Pats win a couple of weeks ago because, unlike people here who thought it was a great win, it was the worst of wins - it was the kind of win where the scoreboard might mask some issues, but your eyes told you were still absolutely prevalent.

This was all down to Chip Kelly - it was no longer "our team", it had become Chip Kelly's little experimental play thing, to see whether he as "the genius" could single-handedly revolutionise the modern NFL.

Perhaps Kelly could've had a successful career as a Head Coach only - but if he wasn't prepared to separate personnel control from the head coaching position, he had to go, and I'm glad he's gone.

With Kelly gone, I will get that love for my team back. And I will do it knowing that there is more pain to come. This will likely be a 2 year+ rebuild because, apart from the probability of finding a coach who puts the QB under centre, there is no real quick fix here. Aside from Fletcher Cox, there are no stars on this team. Our defence is probably adequate, but has holes at corner, and Alonso is an outrageous bust when you look at him in pass protection.

And on our offence? Apart from an aging Peters, Kelce, Johnson who is ok, but not the star you hope for with a 4th overall pick (albeit one from what has become a rubbish draft), and maaaaybe Ertz who has never really been used properly, there's nothing there. I don't automatically say a new coach will fix the RB situation, because Murray had one great season behind a great offensive line - what is there to really fix there?

We need to find a QB, stat. We need 2 new guards. We need wide receivers who are of different moulds, not all this same mediocre "cut" of player who had speed but couldn't catch (oh, sorry, Riley Cooper is a different "cut" :rolleyes: )

So despite the pain that I know is still to come; despite the fact the next 2 seasons will likely be worse than they would've been under Kelly - this had to happen. Because I'm not the only one who felt this antipathy. It's not like Philly fans to leave early - they'll generally stay and boo rather than leave early. I daresay that watching the stands empty by the 4th quarter over the last 2 weeks has probably forced Lurie's hand to an extent.

This post probably isn't as coherent as it might've been, but I've had a hell of a lot of emotion building up around over the last 12 months in particular... so it feels good to let it out.

I have no doubt that he'll end with Tennessee if offered that job, because as this post suggests, I believe Chip Kelly to be a narcissist who will dedicate the next part of his career to proving the Eagles wrong - I believe he will think he can do that with Mariota, so I reckon that's the next move.

And good riddance to him. The Titans are a complete irrelevance anyway - at least they might get one year in the spotlight with Kelly/Mariota before everyone realises that he is, in fact, just a ******* hack when it comes to dealing with NFL players.
 

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I'm making a temporary comeback to the NFL board to comment on this.

Me? I'm glad it happened. Even before this disastrous season, and going back to the offseason about 22 months ago, I felt myself losing my team. Kelly, for reasons that I always believed were to do with power rather than personnel, blew up everything that was "our" team.

People will talk about the big names ad nauseum - Maclin, McCoy, Jackson. But they were only a small part of the problem. The bigger problem was giving up "heart and soul" players like Herremans, Matthis, Cole, and perhaps to a lesser extent Foles.

And for what? Nearly every single move he made in player personnel failed to pay off - on the FA side, Murray, Mathews, Maxwell; on the trading side Alonso and Bradford; on the drafting side Smith, Huff, Agholar, Matthews to an extent - none of them worked. (I know he was only formally given oversight last season, but you can't tell me he didn't have a hell of a lot of oversight the season before.) I'm sure I'm missing one or two players, but the only personnel move of the last 2 seasons that I would suggest has worked was Sproles.
I disagree with you in saying cutting Herremans, Mathis, Cole and Foles was the bigger problem. Apart from Mathis, all of those moves were absolutely the right thing to do. Herremans is now on the street, Foles is on the bench and Cole has 3.5 sacks and has been a non-factor for the Colts. Cole was in decline and had a big cap hit. The bigger issue was letting Jackson go for nothing, not paying to keep Maclin and trading McCoy (which in itself was not a bad idea given his cap hit) and then signing Murray for just as much money.

I would argue Jenkins has been a great signing in FA, Barwin was a great signing, Mathews has been solid albeit injury prone and Thurmond has been solid as well. In the draft Matthews, Hicks, Rowe and Agholor will all be starters for the team going forward. And can I also remind you Roseman absolutely butchered the 2011 draft when he was GM (which he apparently is now, once again) - Watkins, Jarrett, Marsh, Matthews, Henery and co. I'm not sure where they go from here. It seems certain that the first round pick this year will be used on a QB which isn't great news considering how poor the draft class is.
 

Southerntakeover

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I hope you are as harsh on the next poor soul who takes over this hopeless franchise. Lurie is now in his 22nd year as owner and still no Super Bowl. I'm not convinced he has any idea what he is doing either.
Lurie clearly makes mistakes. For example he hired Chip and continued to promote him beyond his competence.
 

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I disagree with you in saying cutting Herremans, Mathis, Cole and Foles was the bigger problem. Apart from Mathis, all of those moves were absolutely the right thing to do. Herremans is now on the street, Foles is on the bench and Cole has 3.5 sacks and has been a non-factor for the Colts. Cole was in decline and had a big cap hit. The bigger issue was letting Jackson go for nothing, not paying to keep Maclin and trading McCoy (which in itself was not a bad idea given his cap hit) and then signing Murray for just as much money.

I would argue Jenkins has been a great signing in FA, Barwin was a great signing, Mathews has been solid albeit injury prone and Thurmond has been solid as well. In the draft Matthews, Hicks, Rowe and Agholor will all be starters for the team going forward. And can I also remind you Roseman absolutely butchered the 2011 draft when he was GM (which he apparently is now, once again) - Watkins, Jarrett, Marsh, Matthews, Henery and co. I'm not sure where they go from here. It seems certain that the first round pick this year will be used on a QB which isn't great news considering how poor the draft class is.
Nearly all valid points. You're right, I missed Hicks and Rowe from the draft - although we didn't actually see that much of Hicks, it was 3-4 solid games before he got injured.

Wasn't Barwin before Kelly's first season? Jenkins has been ok, but being so outspoken, I wonder if he's done as much harm off the field as he's done good on it. I can't agree on Mathews, because his signing was just a waste when we went and got Murray as well.

Regarding Mathis, Cole, Herremans and Foles - personally, I think what they've done after leaving the Eagles is almost irrelevant. If you're 100% committed to this team; if in the case of Mathis and Cole you will go down in history as great Eagles players - I'm not sure I'd expect them to go on being the players that they were before. I know this is the 'Not For Long' league, I know that players and teams move on from each other all the time - but Mathis saw himself as an Eagle despite only being there 4-5 seasons, and gave his best years to the Eagles; Cole will likely one day have his jersey retired by the Eagles. That must break your heart when you're cut, and I think it's entirely understandable that they fall off a cliff after being cut. NOt only does it break your heart, but it must wreck your confidence as well.

I disagree on Agholar in particular - I don't believe he's going to be a long term starter, the jury is probably still out on Jordan Matthews.

From what I understand, Roseman was never really "the guy" in terms of player personnel - he was a financial guy moreso than a scouting guy. I guess that's the one caveat I put on my rant before. If Roseman is part of the panel that searches for a new GM (as I've read today), and it ends up saying "hey, Howie's the guy" - I'll probably remain just as pissed off as I have been.
 

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Barwin was Chip's first off season. A need created by the shift to a 3-4.

The decision to move to a 3-4 is one which we now very strongly need to consider. I was not convinced it was the right move at the time. We actually have the makings of a pretty decent 4-3.

Cox is a natural 4-3 pass rushing DT. He could be a hall of famer at that position. He's wasted as a 3-4 gap controller. Graham/Curry natural pass rushing DEs. Really just need some additional DTs to fill in there. Would think Thornton could fill convert back.

At LB, we still don't have a natural 3-4 pass rusher. Barwin a 3-4 player who perhaps wouldn't fit the 4-3, but for the most part I think our personnel favours the 4-3.
 
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