Philippines new President - Rodrigo "The Punisher" Duterte

[VineyIsLORD]

The bombing and the kidnappings were both two fingers up at the president. Specifically to test his strength and resolve.

The president has responded by ceasing the cease fire and taking on the rebels on the islands off Zamboanga.

I sense they will regret testing whether he is as hard as he claims.

The crazy thing is they bothered to test it out in the first place.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

To date 700,000 people have handed themselves in including senators, judges and police commissioners.

Yet the ABC still found a way to criticise him over this by saying something to the effect that his country was ill equipped to deal with this many people wanting treatment at once.

That's what you call a good problem to have considering where they were with the shabu problem just last year.

 

[Power Raid]

Bombastic statements often designed to grab attention, here and now focus, looks to make deals, uses simple communication whenever possible, big risk takers.

When addressing the village man, he speaks in simple terms that resonates.

He speaks very differently in educated forums.

I guess that's politics everywhere

 

[Power Raid]

Yet the ABC still found a way to criticise him over this by saying something to the effect that his country was ill equipped to deal with this many people wanting treatment at once.

That's what you call a good problem to have considering where they were with the shabu problem just last year.

That 700,000 would definitely include users but many are handing themselves in for the business side of drugs.

 

[Power Raid]

It's funny how people like Duterte always seem to have a 90%+ approval rating.

Agree

He won with around 30% of the vote which would equate to around 55% in a two party preferred system.

I would suggest 75-80% approval rating in this honeymoon period. There is little doubting he is loved by the people for the massive change in weeks.

 

[Power Raid]

Lopez has just attacked Oceania. Let's see how Duterte responds before the 29th.

This will determine whether he is in control or otherwise. My punt is Lopez will be saved face.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Lopez has just attacked Oceania. Let's see how Duterte responds before the 29th.

This will determine whether he is in control or otherwise. My punt is Lopez will be saved face.

Can you expand on this?

 

[Power Raid]

Can you expand on this?

in bullet points as I'm having a conference call with them in 13 minutes:
oceania gold is a good operator
they pay a "GST" to benefit the local community (10% of expenditure goes to the local area)
some of the locals outside of the municipality are jelly and blocked off roads in recent months wanting a cut

the two pathways
the govt has stepped in through the audit and with set new soft hurdles to get buy in from all and settle the dispute
or
the govt will shut down the mine and be sued by the world bank

my gut feel based solely on how good the Filipino Govt has been, the first is likely. Mining should benefit communities and be operated responsibly.

but time will tell

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Been a big couple of days for Duterte watchers.

1. Manny Pacquiao, greatest boxer of all time and congressman in Philippines, has come out as a former drug user, noting that he dabbled in all kinds of drugs in his youth before going on to become the greatest athlete Philippines has ever produced. He then announced his support for Duterte's crackdown on drugs.

It was noted he has a wrist tattoo with the words "Guardians Mindanao Brotherhood", the very same as Duterte. This identifies them as members of the same fraternity. A fraternity in Philippines is kind of a cross between an RSL, a Bikie gang and a Men's Club. They initially came out of the Filipino army when the US used them as troops in WW2 and Korea (promising them full citizenship of the US, and then changing their mind). There have been crackdowns on fraternities under previous presidents because they represent working class people with no allegiance to the church, only other working class people.

2. After returning from Vietnam to Davao, Duterte addressed criticism of some european media outlets calling him Hitler-esque by saying that he would happily be the Hitler of drugs, drug pushers and drug users. He said "Germany had Hitler, Philippines has..." and pointed to himself. Makes for a great headline but he's really just taking the piss out of the media with this one while remaining appealing to the masses.

 

[smokingjacket]

Been a big couple of days for Duterte watchers.

1. Manny Pacquiao, greatest boxer of all time and congressman in Philippines, has come out as a former drug user, noting that he dabbled in all kinds of drugs in his youth before going on to become the greatest athlete Philippines has ever produced. He then announced his support for Duterte's crackdown on drugs.

It was noted he has a wrist tattoo with the words "Guardians Mindanao Brotherhood", the very same as Duterte. This identifies them as members of the same fraternity. A fraternity in Philippines is kind of a cross between an RSL, a Bikie gang and a Men's Club. They initially came out of the Filipino army when the US used them as troops in WW2 and Korea (promising them full citizenship of the US, and then changing their mind). There have been crackdowns on fraternities under previous presidents because they represent working class people with no allegiance to the church, only other working class people.

2. After returning from Vietnam to Davao, Duterte addressed criticism of some european media outlets calling him Hitler-esque by saying that he would happily be the Hitler of drugs, drug pushers and drug users. He said "Germany had Hitler, Philippines has..." and pointed to himself. Makes for a great headline but he's really just taking the piss out of the media with this one while remaining appealing to the masses.

From my experience SEA's don't get/don't care about the whole Hitler, Swastika, Third Reich motifs and symbolism.

 

[awaremind]

He also said that there would be no more naval exercises with the us.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

He also said that there would be no more naval exercises with the us.

Far more relevant than either of the things I discussed.

What a character.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

From my experience SEA's don't get/don't care about the whole Hitler, Swastika, Third Reich motifs and symbolism.

And why should they? They got invaded by the Japanese and the s**t they went through was as bad as what China got. And then as skilts posted earlier, dodgy doug bombed the poor to clear their homes for european-ancestry wealthy types to claim the real estate.

They've got no reason to care about offending european sensibilities - and the pivot to China is real.

 

[fleabitten]

Interesting thread. First time I've encountered Westerners who support Duterte. Most of my Filipino friends are horrified/embarrassed by him, but they're a minority. Any article on the guy, check the comments section and there will be hundreds of Duterte sheep defending him, usually with more than a little hostility.

I'm not sure how anyone can defend his war on drugs. Thousands killed, not just by police but mostly by vigilantes. Many victims not even identified, let alone found guilty of anything. Some bystanders and family members killed as well. Also people that surrendered to police and still got executed without trial. It's disgraceful.

 

[smokingjacket]

Interesting thread. First time I've encountered Westerners who support Duterte. Most of my Filipino friends are horrified/embarrassed by him, but they're a minority. Any article on the guy, check the comments section and there will be hundreds of Duterte sheep defending him, usually with more than a little hostility.

I'm not sure how anyone can defend his war on drugs. Thousands killed, not just by police but mostly by vigilantes. Many victims not even identified, let alone found guilty of anything. Some bystanders and family members killed as well. Also people that surrendered to police and still got executed without trial. It's disgraceful.

I think the context of Duterte's campaign is important.

When Nixon brought in the "War on Drugs" in the US, it was in his own words intended as an attack on his political enemies in the US who were winning the culture war and propaganda campaign around the Vietnam and "freedom." The counterculture, black America and liberal America were targeted but particularly revolutionary black America who Nixon loathed.

In this case as VineyIsLORD has already covered, drug trafficking is big business and part of the "establishment" of Philipino politics, his war is an attack on power not a campaign against a minority. He's punching up not down you might say.

There's certainly an ends and means argument to make but for the time being I find it very interesting. Been a good thread.

 

[fleabitten]

I think the context of Duterte's campaign is important.

When Nixon brought in the "War on Drugs" in the US, it was in his own words intended as an attack on his political enemies in the US who were winning the culture war and propaganda campaign around the Vietnam and "freedom." The counterculture, black America and liberal America were targeted but particularly revolutionary black America who Nixon loathed.

In this case as VineyIsLORD has already covered, drug trafficking is big business and part of the "establishment" of Philipino politics, his war is an attack on power not a campaign against a minority. He's punching up not down you might say.

There's certainly an ends and means argument to make but for the time being I find it very interesting. Been a good thread.

I disagree. Most of the dead are poor. Duterte is not and has never been poor. He's a lawyer/politician son of a lawyer/politician. Maybe he's not deliberately punching down, but that's where the blows are landing.

When the president tells citizens that they should go out and kill drug dealers, and then a 5 year old girl is killed when vigilantes open fire on her house (her grandfather had previously turned himself in, trying to clear his name after being accused of dealing), then that murder is on the president's head.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Interesting thread. First time I've encountered Westerners who support Duterte. Most of my Filipino friends are horrified/embarrassed by him, but they're a minority. Any article on the guy, check the comments section and there will be hundreds of Duterte sheep defending him, usually with more than a little hostility.

I'm not sure how anyone can defend his war on drugs. Thousands killed, not just by police but mostly by vigilantes. Many victims not even identified, let alone found guilty of anything. Some bystanders and family members killed as well. Also people that surrendered to police and still got executed without trial. It's disgraceful.

Gotta be careful with the vigilantes thing.

There's a lot of speculation and logic suggesting at least some of the "vigilantes" doing the killing are actually rival drug cartels using the 'war on drugs' as cover to knock off snitches and rivals. In particular theres been a lot of talk that when dealers are rumoured to be handing themselves in to the police, their bosses are having them knocked off first.

Of course, there was the DDS and the NPA in Mindanao who killed people under Duterte as mayor, but they only clipped about 500 in over 25 years, not the 3,000 that have died by people other than the police (who have killed about 1,500) since Duterte came in. I can say with some certainty that nobody who handed themselves over to police were executed by the police. For all his bluster, he is very big on the rule of law. He is just also much bigger on the social contract. Definitely possible they were knocked by other drug gangs for being informants though.

The support he has won't be from expat filipinos in Australia. Its from the genuine working class and the genuine poor, that didn't have the money to flee philippines at any point and can finally walk the streets at night without having to worry about being attacked. That's why he's proving so popular. When that daughter of Baron Moynihan was killed working class filipinos were positively ECSTATIC precisely because she was from a protected family who ran brothels and sold drugs and got away with it for generations because they contributed enough money to the establishment. That protection is not just gone, its outright open season on those formerly protected.

The lesson as always is that you can't ignore the poor forever.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

ABC did a really good doco about the two women who went missing who are the subject of the below article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/w...d-in-activists-disappearance-is-arrested.html

Essentially the establishment has been abducting, raping and murdering left wing activists for decades, in particular trade unionists and students. You'd be hard pressed to find rural or working class Filipinos who didn't know someone who got disappeared by the military for being too radical.

So when Duterte came to power with his murky connections to the NPA, a lot of Filipinos saw it as the chickens coming home to roost. A country that tolerates some of the worst cartels on earth (14k, Sinaloa, Son Yee On, Red Scorpion) as long as you pay the right officials had no problems killing teenagers that asked the hard questions about wealth disparity.

 

[Power Raid]

I think the context of Duterte's campaign is important.

When Nixon brought in the "War on Drugs" in the US, it was in his own words intended as an attack on his political enemies in the US who were winning the culture war and propaganda campaign around the Vietnam and "freedom." The counterculture, black America and liberal America were targeted but particularly revolutionary black America who Nixon loathed.

In this case as VineyIsLORD has already covered, drug trafficking is big business and part of the "establishment" of Philipino politics, his war is an attack on power not a campaign against a minority. He's punching up not down you might say.

There's certainly an ends and means argument to make but for the time being I find it very interesting. Been a good thread.

well said

It will be interesting if Duterte knows when to pull back on his hard line policy and switch to a more positive agenda or whether the nation has to run a 6 year course.

I just hope the nation stabilises under his leadership. The nation has been torn apart for too long.

 

[fleabitten]

Gotta be careful with the vigilantes thing.

There's a lot of speculation and logic suggesting at least some of the "vigilantes" doing the killing are actually rival drug cartels using the 'war on drugs' as cover to knock off snitches and rivals. In particular theres been a lot of talk that when dealers are rumoured to be handing themselves in to the police, their bosses are having them knocked off first.

Of course, there was the DDS and the NPA in Mindanao who killed people under Duterte as mayor, but they only clipped about 500 in over 25 years, not the 3,000 that have died by people other than the police (who have killed about 1,500) since Duterte came in. I can say with some certainty that nobody who handed themselves over to police were executed by the police. For all his bluster, he is very big on the rule of law. He is just also much bigger on the social contract. Definitely possible they were knocked by other drug gangs for being informants though.

There are dozens of guys that surrendered and were later killed.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/794598/kill-list-drugs-duterte

How can you believe a guy is big on the rule of law when he's telling citizens to take it into their own hands and having the police execute people without trial?

The support he has won't be from expat filipinos in Australia. Its from the genuine working class and the genuine poor, that didn't have the money to flee philippines at any point and can finally walk the streets at night without having to worry about being attacked. That's why he's proving so popular. When that daughter of Baron Moynihan was killed working class filipinos were positively ECSTATIC precisely because she was from a protected family who ran brothels and sold drugs and got away with it for generations because they contributed enough money to the establishment. That protection is not just gone, its outright open season on those formerly protected.

The lesson as always is that you can't ignore the poor forever.

The friends I was referring to aren't expats, they're still living there and are "genuine working class and poor". I know he has a lot of support from the working class, but it's far from unanimous and not everyone feels safer with trigger happy police and presidentially approved hitmen roaming the streets instead of pushers and junkies.

 

[fleabitten]

ABC did a really good doco about the two women who went missing who are the subject of the below article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/w...d-in-activists-disappearance-is-arrested.html

Essentially the establishment has been abducting, raping and murdering left wing activists for decades, in particular trade unionists and students. You'd be hard pressed to find rural or working class Filipinos who didn't know someone who got disappeared by the military for being too radical.

So when Duterte came to power with his murky connections to the NPA, a lot of Filipinos saw it as the chickens coming home to roost. A country that tolerates some of the worst cartels on earth (14k, Sinaloa, Son Yee On, Red Scorpion) as long as you pay the right officials had no problems killing teenagers that asked the hard questions about wealth disparity.

Found one with the first person I asked.

I'm not defending previous administrations, by the way. The Philippines needs a proper revolution, not another dictator. It's really quite ugly hearing Filipinos praise god in one mouthful and approve of murder in the next.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

There are dozens of guys that surrendered and were later killed.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/794598/kill-list-drugs-duterte

How can you believe a guy is big on the rule of law when he's telling citizens to take it into their own hands and having the police execute people without trial?



The friends I was referring to aren't expats, they're still living there and are "genuine working class and poor". I know he has a lot of support from the working class, but it's far from unanimous and not everyone feels safer with trigger happy police and presidentially approved hitmen roaming the streets instead of pushers and junkies.

He isn't having police execute people without trial though.

He's been very consistent and clear that he will have the back of the police if they use force to defend themselves when affecting an arrest. He has not encouraged police to just straight up murder suspects.

You're right his support isn't unanimous, but his approval rating is incredibly high for a Filipino president. The vast and overwhelming majority support him.

One only needs to look at the effect he had on Davao to see why he was so popular there, and the fact his popularity has increased dramatically since taking the presidency suggests he's doing the right thing as far as his people are concerned.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Found one with the first person I asked.

I'm not defending previous administrations, by the way. The Philippines needs a proper revolution, not another dictator. It's really quite ugly hearing Filipinos praise god in one mouthful and approve of murder in the next.

On what basis do you call him a dictator? Was he not elected democratically on many, many occasions?

 

[fleabitten]

He isn't having police execute people without trial though.

He's been very consistent and clear that he will have the back of the police if they use force to defend themselves when affecting an arrest. He has not encouraged police to just straight up murder suspects.

“If you know of any addicts, go ahead and kill them yourself as getting their parents to do it would be too painful.”

“More people will be killed, plenty will be killed until the last pusher is out of the streets. Until the (last) drug manufacturer is killed, we will continue and I will continue.”

“They’re all enjoying your money, money that destroyed your brain. You know who the drug lords are. Would you like to kill them? Go ahead. Killing them is allowed because you are the victim.”

 

[fleabitten]

On what basis do you call him a dictator? Was he not elected democratically on many, many occasions?

He's not one yet, he just seems like he has the makings of one. We'll see what happens in 6 years, I guess (if he lives that long).