Toast Pick #10 - Welcome to Carlton Lochie O'Brien!

[SurreyBlue]

Agree. Bolton coached for the future and Teague is coaching for now. I rate both.

The question is how long will what Teague is doing last? At some stage clubs will put time into us and work a few things out. I love that a coach allows the players to play more on instinct. We have the talent to do it. What is important is we still do the hard stuff as well.

Teague has also been great with his game day moves.

What impressed me about our win against Freo was the workrate and team effort. Do that consistently and you can achieve anything

Bolton was killing the kids bodies. You can develop youngsters while not thrashing them. I think we have dodged a bullet by making the change now. He did this last year with injured players as well. Just plain wrong when it comes to youngsters.

 

[Soapy V]

Bolton was killing the kids bodies. You can develop youngsters while not thrashing them. I think we have dodged a bullet by making the change now. He did this last year with injured players as well. Just plain wrong when it comes to youngsters.

Have to disagree SB. Didn't happen and Russell has a big say in how they recover and train during the week. Young players are very well looked after and managed

 

[rog1995]

I saw that as coaching for the future. Imagine the confidence we would have got by beating Pies, GCS or Hawks with the midfield being led by Cripps Dow Fisher SPS etc?

Such a fine line. Our win at the weekend was great and needed but our 2 best players were Curnow & Murphy. Next step is to win with our best players being Fisher Dow Cuningham Setterfield etc

I agree to an extent. However you need to find the right balance. Crippa was carrying that midfield load far to much while Ed was sitting in the forward line and Murphy on the wing. Our forward structure was terrible and did not give our forwards a chance. Look at Charlie is it any coincidence he looked like a completely different player after Teague took over? LOB is another perfect example. He looks like a completely different player the last three weeks allowing him to play his natural game while given a task. That left foot is a weapon. He's added some physicality and enthusiasm which I haven't seen prior. The confidence of a win without Crippa, Harry and Charlie after quarter time interstate and being 5 goals down was a remarkable result. Even our defence looked organised on Sunday. Something has just clicked . The best win against all the odds all year by a long way and the look on the players faces after that win was amazing.

 

[thylacine60]

Bolton was killing the kids bodies. You can develop youngsters while not thrashing them. I think we have dodged a bullet by making the change now. He did this last year with injured players as well. Just plain wrong when it comes to youngsters.

I don't get this at all.......

 

[SurreyBlue]

Have to disagree SB. Didn't happen and Russell has a big say in how they recover and train during the week. Young players are very well looked after and managed

Respect your opinion on this but I couldn’t disagree anymore on this point.
I’m sure the club and Russell know what they are doing but when it comes to bodies lasting 12 to 15 years in AFL football, I feel as an industry we don’t manage it well.

Teams like Geelong and Sydney can afford to develop youngsters slowly, unfortunatly teams like GWS are now seeing the results of not being able too.

As an example, look at our previous no.1 - Kruezer, Murphy & Gibbs. 1 out of the 3 was protected off the half back line early on and his body has lasted better then the other 2, who were used as battering ramps from day one. Add the harder surfaces and you have long term issues.

We need to help the kids to play for 10+ years and not 5. Just my thoughts, of course.

 

[Soapy V]

Respect your opinion on this but I couldn’t disagree anymore on this point.
I’m sure the club and Russell know what they are doing but when it comes to bodies lasting 12 to 15 years in AFL football, I feel as an industry we don’t manage it well.

Teams like Geelong and Sydney can afford to develop youngsters slowly, unfortunatly teams like GWS are now seeing the results of not being able too.

As an example, look at our previous no.1 - Kruezer, Murphy & Gibbs. 1 out of the 3 was protected off the half back line early on and his body has lasted better then the other 2, who were used as battering ramps from day one. Add the harder surfaces and you have long term issues.

We need to help the kids to play for 10+ years and not 5. Just my thoughts, of course.

That's fine, no issue. Just agree to disagree. There are many ways to look after the young players. I have no issue with they way it's been handled. Actually, it's been very impressive IMO

 

[thylacine60]

bolton's coaching the long game was always going to test, push and ultimately break the nerve of stakeholders - just as a government will always struggle to propose, sell and implement any big infrastructure policy that runs longer than a term of government - it leads to a short-sighted, short-term mentality - bolts fell on his sword the moment he played the long suit and we should thank him all the way to 17.........huge professional sacrifice by the man.......

 

[Stamos]

Such a fine line.

The fine line was playing Ed in the guts.
The kids still get the development, but we're winning games.

 

[Macca43]

I agree to an extent. However you need to find the right balance. Crippa was carrying that midfield load far to much while Ed was sitting in the forward line and Murphy on the wing. Our forward structure was terrible and did not give our forwards a chance. Look at Charlie is it any coincidence he looked like a completely different player after Teague took over? LOB is another perfect example. He looks like a completely different player the last three weeks allowing him to play his natural game while given a task. That left foot is a weapon. He's added some physicality and enthusiasm which I haven't seen prior. The confidence of a win without Crippa, Harry and Charlie after quarter time interstate and being 5 goals down was a remarkable result. Even our defence looked organised on Sunday. Something has just clicked . The best win against all the odds all year by a long way and the look on the players faces after that win was amazing.

I don't think Teague would be achieving anything without the base Bolton built. It could be argued that Bolton held on to his "structure" a little too long and should have set the players free earlier but the pressure he was coaching under was significantly higher than what Teague has got.

I also wonder what may have happened if we had held on against the Suns and Hawks, made it 3 wins in a row and been 3-3 after 6. I have a feeling the confidence that would have built in everyone involved would have seen Bolton willing to take the next step and resulted in a similar evolution as what we have seen under Teague.

 

[rog1995]

I don't think Teague would be achieving anything without the base Bolton built. It could be argued that Bolton held on to his "structure" a little too long and should have set the players free earlier but the pressure he was coaching under was significantly higher than what Teague has got.

I also wonder what may have happened if we had held on against the Suns and Hawks, made it 3 wins in a row and been 3-3 after 6. I have a feeling the confidence that would have built in everyone involved would have seen Bolton willing to take the next step and resulted in a similar evolution as what we have seen under Teague.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Do you think we would've won on the weekend if Bolton was still coach? I doubt he would. JSOS to Fyfe and Ed in the centre are the two key moves that won us the game.

 

[Macca43]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Do you think we would've won on the weekend if Bolton was still coach? I doubt he would. JSOS to Fyfe and Ed in the centre are the two key moves that won us the game.

Who knows. I think removing Bolton in the end was the right call because things had reached a tipping point and I like Teagues attitude towards coaching (more of an art than a science etc), I am simply saying he was the right coach for the times we had at Carlton and laid a great platform for us to build off. The success of recent weeks in largely down to the work he did.

It is also interesting to note that all the calls for Silvagni's (Snr) head have dropped off in recent weeks, the list he has built suddenly looks pretty decent.

 

[blueblooded]

I don't think Teague would be achieving anything without the base Bolton built. It could be argued that Bolton held on to his "structure" a little too long and should have set the players free earlier but the pressure he was coaching under was significantly higher than what Teague has got.

I also wonder what may have happened if we had held on against the Suns and Hawks, made it 3 wins in a row and been 3-3 after 6. I have a feeling the confidence that would have built in everyone involved would have seen Bolton willing to take the next step and resulted in a similar evolution as what we have seen under Teague.

I don't agree with this at all, we played shocking football against the suns we were horrid all day and if it wasn't gold coast we would have lost by 10 goals plus. Against the Hawks we played well for a half by attacking and then we stopped, why? we stopped moving the ball and running as soon as we had a five goal lead. was this the coaches instructions? to go defensive again and protect the work we'd done? Why didn't anyone go to O'meara in the second half after he single handedly got them going? Bolts didn't think he was damaging enough winning every clearance for nearly 2 full quarters of footy? Maybe we would have got the game back on our terms. Teague makes these moves that are easy to make with a basic feel of the game and the courage to make a call, and he makes them quickly, Bolts did none of this.

The game against North Melbourne sealed it for me and showed clearly that Bolton called the shots and didn't take feedback to well. How on earth our midfield on that day was allowed to keep going up against Cunnington, Ziebell and Higgins who absolutely rag dolled them and embarrassed them without a change for over 3 quarters was beyond me. What did they learn from that experience? How to cop a flogging! I prefer the experience and the confidence they have received by winning and playing to their strengths over the past 3 weeks any day over that rubbish.

The facts remain that Bolton was a nice bloke, had good intentions and probably had a good strategy in theory and nothing more. He was a very poor game day coach who in year 4 of a rebuild had no clue how to manage his players game day on a football field which is the critical element to compete against other talented football teams, which every team is in an equalised competition.

On LOB he has shown more in 3 weeks than ever and is more confident under Teague. They are all towing the party line and being nice blokes regarding their views on Bolton even to their friends and family, at the end of the day he was a nice guy, behind closed doors and in private they'd be absolutely wrapped they don't have to play out of position and in an unnatural way and listen to the corporate speak any longer.

 

[Macca43]

I don't agree with this at all, we played shocking football against the suns we were horrid all day and if it wasn't gold coast we would have lost by 10 goals plus. Against the Hawks we played well for a half by attacking and then we stopped, why? we stopped moving the ball and running as soon as we had a five goal lead. was this the coaches instructions? to go defensive again and protect the work we'd done? Why didn't anyone go to O'meara in the second half after he single handedly got them going? Bolts didn't think he was damaging enough winning every clearance for nearly 2 full quarters of footy? Maybe we would have got the game back on our terms. Teague makes these moves that are easy to make with a basic feel of the game and the courage to make a call, and he makes them quickly, Bolts did none of this.

The game against North Melbourne sealed it for me and showed clearly that Bolton called the shots and didn't take feedback to well. How on earth our midfield on that day was allowed to keep going up against Cunnington, Ziebell and Higgins who absolutely rag dolled them and embarrassed them without a change for over 3 quarters was beyond me. What did they learn from that experience? How to cop a flogging! I prefer the experience and the confidence they have received by winning and playing to their strengths over the past 3 weeks any day over that rubbish.

The facts remain that Bolton was a nice bloke, had good intentions and probably had a good strategy in theory and nothing more. He was a very poor game day coach who in year 4 of a rebuild had no clue how to manage his players game day on a football field which is the critical element to compete against other talented football teams, which every team is in an equalised competition.

On LOB he has shown more in 3 weeks than ever and is more confident under Teague. They are all towing the party line and being nice blokes regarding their views on Bolton even to their friends and family, at the end of the day he was a nice guy, behind closed doors and in private they'd be absolutely wrapped they don't have to play out of position and in an unnatural way and listen to the corporate speak any longer.

You missed the point completely. Yes we played poorly against the Suns but a win still builds confidence.

LOB is performing a lot better under Teague but I doubt he would be performing this well without the lesson he learned under Bolton's structure.

Bolton could have done a lot of things better (as I am sure Teague could too) but the education and experience he gave our young list has been vital.

 

[james Dean]

Teague has shown more in 3 games as a coach than Bolton did in 3 years

 

[thylacine60]

Complete and utter garbage - now comes the total destruction of the base Bolton built that Teague and the players are benefitting from - knock me down with a clipboard, who saw this coming?

 

[rog1995]

Complete and utter garbage - now comes the total destruction of the base Bolton built that Teague and the players are benefitting from - knock me down with a clipboard, who saw this coming?

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. Listen to this weeks Carlton show for the stark difference in stats and our performances since Teague has taken over. It's not a coincidence. I haven't seen a Carlton side play this consistent three weeks in a row against all the odds and enjoy watching for a very long time.

 

[kingkingston]

Still don't rate his kicking that great, but he did a couple of good things yesterday

 

[kingkingston]

Complete and utter garbage - now comes the total destruction of the base Bolton built that Teague and the players are benefitting from - knock me down with a clipboard, who saw this coming?

i think they are just playing with freedom, but this doesn't mean this is how they would play under Teague as a full time coach next season

 

[Soapy V]

You missed the point completely. Yes we played poorly against the Suns but a win still builds confidence.

LOB is performing a lot better under Teague but I doubt he would be performing this well without the lesson he learned under Bolton's structure.

Bolton could have done a lot of things better (as I am sure Teague could too) but the education and experience he gave our young list has been vital.

absolutely no doubt.

 

[Soapy V]

Complete and utter garbage - now comes the total destruction of the base Bolton built that Teague and the players are benefitting from - knock me down with a clipboard, who saw this coming?

Not surprising. Usual knee jerk short term thinking that some have.

 

[Soapy V]

i think they are just playing with freedom, but this doesn't mean this is how they would play under Teague as a full time coach next season

I see it as playing our best players in their best positions. In Boltons first year when he did that he won a few games. As he preferenced development and the rebuild over wins it became tough. As side focussed on wins first wouldn't play Curnow up forward and Murphy on a wing. If 4-5 weeks ago Bolton had said "okay we have done well now it's time to play free and at our best" we could have easily had similar results.

 

[Blue__Balls]

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. Listen to this weeks Carlton show for the stark difference in stats and our performances since Teague has taken over. It's not a coincidence. I haven't seen a Carlton side play this consistent three weeks in a row against all the odds and enjoy watching for a very long time.

The only way you can find proof that Bolton didn't lay the foundations for our current performance is if you invent a time machine and give Teague the job from Day 1.

Absolutely agree that Bolton did a wonderful job. Through years of list turnover and injuries and heavy losses, none of our talented young kids went chasing success elsewhere. The cultural change brought about by Bolton's whole of club ethos, and his encouragement of players developing as rounded young adults in addition to just being good footballers, will hopefully pay dividends for years. How many of our current players are getting into fights in bars, or making stupid decisions like betting on themselves in games?

Hugely grateful for the work that Bolton put in. But at the same time, completely understanding that the players themselves, after years of patience, were starting to lose faith in the long-term approach. If Bolton had been able to reconcile that and start coaching for the now, he may still be coaching us. But he wasn't, couldn't, whatever, and as a result the club has moved on. Doesn't devalue what he'd done prior to that point.

 

[Macca43]

I see it as playing our best players in their best positions. In Boltons first year when he did that he won a few games. As he preferenced development and the rebuild over wins it became tough. As side focussed on wins first wouldn't play Curnow up forward and Murphy on a wing. If 4-5 weeks ago Bolton had said "okay we have done well now it's time to play free and at our best" we could have easily had similar results.

Exactly. If we could have jagged those couple of extra wins I reckon he would have made that leap (especially as the pressure would have come off him) but when the results didn't come and the pressure built he kept trying to reinforce his teachings.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Samo, Plowman and LOB have always been the indicators for me that Bolton had to go. I spent 3 years watching Samo go from playing off of instincts to literally seeing him see the option he wanted to take, hesitate, stop... and then eventually kicking it down along the boundary, I watched Plowman go from a rock solid user of the ball who seemed to have the smarts to make it, to one of the most frustrating and unreliable, I watched LOB in pre season looking incredible and damaging, to absolutely putrid in the early half of the season. These 3 players are the ones u can see it the most, they do 3-4 headswivels before every kick, they had the natural instinct to go inboard and hit targets that really opened games up, and it was taken away from them. I think Bolton should be seen as a hero for keeping a positive energy among the club in a tough time and setting the foundations of a team defense, but he was killing our natural players talents and instincts. I saw one or 2 games every year where I said 'WOW' Samo, Plowman, LOB, these young guys who are extremely talented and u can just see the hesitation in their eyes. Once or twice a year they just seem to throw out the structure Bolton had set and they looked like world beaters. Teague might not be doing much differently, but clearly the freedom has got our more instinctive players back to their best

 

[Macca43]

The only way you can find proof that Bolton didn't lay the foundations for our current performance is if you invent a time machine and give Teague the job from Day 1.

Absolutely agree that Bolton did a wonderful job. Through years of list turnover and injuries and heavy losses, none of our talented young kids went chasing success elsewhere. The cultural change brought about by Bolton's whole of club ethos, and his encouragement of players developing as rounded young adults in addition to just being good footballers, will hopefully pay dividends for years. How many of our current players are getting into fights in bars, or making stupid decisions like betting on themselves in games?

Hugely grateful for the work that Bolton put in. But at the same time, completely understanding that the players themselves, after years of patience, were starting to lose faith in the long-term approach. If Bolton had been able to reconcile that and start coaching for the now, he may still be coaching us. But he wasn't, couldn't, whatever, and as a result the club has moved on. Doesn't devalue what he'd done prior to that point.

Perfectly articulated!!