Toast Pick #10 - Welcome to Carlton Lochie O'Brien!

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WalshistheGOAT said:
Samo, Plowman and LOB have always been the indicators for me that Bolton had to go. I spent 3 years watching Samo go from playing off of instincts to literally seeing him see the option he wanted to take, hesitate, stop... and then eventually kicking it down along the boundary, I watched Plowman go from a rock solid user of the ball who seemed to have the smarts to make it, to one of the most frustrating and unreliable, I watched LOB in pre season looking incredible and damaging, to absolutely putrid in the early half of the season. These 3 players are the ones u can see it the most, they do 3-4 headswivels before every kick, they had the natural instinct to go inboard and hit targets that really opened games up, and it was taken away from them. I think Bolton should be seen as a hero for keeping a positive energy among the club in a tough time and setting the foundations of a team defense, but he was killing our natural players talents and instincts. I saw one or 2 games every year where I said 'WOW' Samo, Plowman, LOB, these young guys who are extremely talented and u can just see the hesitation in their eyes. Once or twice a year they just seem to throw out the structure Bolton had set and they looked like world beaters. Teague might not be doing much differently, but clearly the freedom has got our more instinctive players back to their best
Click to expand...

Nope
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Samo, Plowman and LOB have always been the indicators for me that Bolton had to go. I spent 3 years watching Samo go from playing off of instincts to literally seeing him see the option he wanted to take, hesitate, stop... and then eventually kicking it down along the boundary, I watched Plowman go from a rock solid user of the ball who seemed to have the smarts to make it, to one of the most frustrating and unreliable, I watched LOB in pre season looking incredible and damaging, to absolutely putrid in the early half of the season. These 3 players are the ones u can see it the most, they do 3-4 headswivels before every kick, they had the natural instinct to go inboard and hit targets that really opened games up, and it was taken away from them. I think Bolton should be seen as a hero for keeping a positive energy among the club in a tough time and setting the foundations of a team defense, but he was killing our natural players talents and instincts. I saw one or 2 games every year where I said 'WOW' Samo, Plowman, LOB, these young guys who are extremely talented and u can just see the hesitation in their eyes. Once or twice a year they just seem to throw out the structure Bolton had set and they looked like world beaters. Teague might not be doing much differently, but clearly the freedom has got our more instinctive players back to their best
Click to expand...
Of course if they had just been allowed to play on "instinct" this whole time you no doubt would be complaining that they are simply downhill skiers who don't do the team thing.
 

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Soapy V said:
I see it as playing our best players in their best positions. In Boltons first year when he did that he won a few games. As he preferenced development and the rebuild over wins it became tough. As side focussed on wins first wouldn't play Curnow up forward and Murphy on a wing. If 4-5 weeks ago Bolton had said "okay we have done well now it's time to play free and at our best" we could have easily had similar results.
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with a bit of luck we would have won a few more games earlier in the year and be in the mix for finals. 6 losses under 20 points hurt that chance
 
Macca43 said:
Of course if they had just been allowed to play on "instinct" this whole time you no doubt would be complaining that they are simply downhill skiers who don't do the team thing.
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No, I think certain players need to play off instincts and others work best in systems. Weitering and Doc are phenominal system based players, same with guys like Ed, Walsh, probably Setterfield as well as others on our list now.There are players that just need the license to play. Dustin Martin, Charlie Cameron, Degoey Charlie, Harry, Samo, LOB... I liked Bolts and I'd give him a big hug for what he did for us, but a great coach identifies the players he's dealing with and I think Bolton got it wrong with some of ours. Clarkson had an incredible system and structure, but even he allowed Cyril to just do his thing. Hardwick designed a system around Dusty getting to play his damaging best and the team complimenting him being the best player. I think Boltons work with a lot of our real system players was unquestionably great, we have a good backline that really clicks, especially when Doc was still out there, but I will never back down from the arguement that he was trying to convert some players from instinctive and natural freaks, to system based players and I just dont believe it was the right thing for them. I cbf pulling it up, but the picture of Charlies heat map from Bolton and Teague, I think Teague has done a better job of identifying what each player brings to the table, and letting them focus purely on that aspect for the time being probably to get their confidence back.

I still think Bolts was great for a lot of our team, the foundation of system based defense was put in and will pay us back in the long run, but its been said that Bolton disagreed with Teague over forward structures and ball movement, and I think its shown that Teague is getting more of our natural flair and instinctive players like LOB and Charlie involved this year.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
No, I think certain players need to play off instincts and others work best in systems. Weitering and Doc are phenominal system based players, same with guys like Matthew Right, Walsh, probably Setterfield as well as others on our list now.There are players that just need the license to play. Dustin Martin, Charlie Cameron, Degoey Charlie, Harry, Samo, LOB... I liked Bolts and I'd give him a big hug for what he did for us, but a great coach identifies the players he's dealing with and I think Bolton got it wrong with some of ours. Clarkson had an incredible system and structure, but even he allowed Cyril to just do his thing. Hardwick designed a system around Dusty getting to play his damaging best and the team complimenting him being the best player. I think Boltons work with a lot of our real system players was unquestionably great, we have a good backline that really clicks, especially when Doc was still out there, but I will never back down from the arguement that he was trying to convert some players from instinctive and natural freaks, to system based players and I just dont believe it was the right thing for them. I cbf pulling it up, but the picture of Charlies heat map from Bolton and Teague, I think Teague has done a better job of identifying what each player brings to the table, and letting them focus purely on that aspect for the time being probably to get their confidence back.

I still think Bolts was great for a lot of our team, the foundation of system based defense was put in and will pay us back in the long run, but its been said that Bolton disagreed with Teague over forward structures and ball movement, and I think its shown that Teague is getting more of our natural flair and instinctive players like LOB and Charlie involved this year.
Click to expand...

A system doesn't work if only some players adhere to it.

If we compare your "licence to play" with a "licence to drive" these blokes still need to be told the rules of the road, do their 120 hours of supervised driving on their L's before stepping through the graduated P's system and then with that solid grounding they can go out with a full licence.

Even if you look at LOB this week, one of the main reasons I was so impressed with him was that Hill had no impact on the game, LOB kept the base that Bolton had given him and added the extra layer of "instinct" and "freedom".

Remember the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
No, I think certain players need to play off instincts and others work best in systems. Weitering and Doc are phenominal system based players, same with guys like Matty right ('vomit' Adelaide), Walsh, probably Setterfield as well as others on our list now.There are players that just need the license to play. Dustin Martin, Charlie Cameron, Degoey Charlie, Harry, Samo, LOB... I liked Bolts and I'd give him a big hug for what he did for us, but a great coach identifies the players he's dealing with and I think Bolton got it wrong with some of ours. Clarkson had an incredible system and structure, but even he allowed Cyril to just do his thing. Hardwick designed a system around Dusty getting to play his damaging best and the team complimenting him being the best player. I think Boltons work with a lot of our real system players was unquestionably great, we have a good backline that really clicks, especially when Doc was still out there, but I will never back down from the arguement that he was trying to convert some players from instinctive and natural freaks, to system based players and I just dont believe it was the right thing for them. I cbf pulling it up, but the picture of Charlies heat map from Bolton and Teague, I think Teague has done a better job of identifying what each player brings to the table, and letting them focus purely on that aspect for the time being probably to get their confidence back.

I still think Bolts was great for a lot of our team, the foundation of system based defense was put in and will pay us back in the long run, but its been said that Bolton disagreed with Teague over forward structures and ball movement, and I think its shown that Teague is getting more of our natural flair and instinctive players like LOB and Charlie involved this year.
Click to expand...

Fair points throughout.

I think Bolton had a vision for how the team would eventually play. It likely involved maintaining possession from the beginning of the game, and denying the opposition any real momentum. In other words - Hawthorn during their golden years.

I think Bolton believed that the team could "try" to implement that gameplan, despite our youth. Don't get too high, don't get too low. Mistakes will be made, but it's part of the process. Better to learn the "right way" than pick up bad habits. I can absolutely appreciate the logic in that approach, and I think the club and players did too...for a time.

A lot of what Bolton taught will carry forward. There will be a time down the track where we are capable of playing that type of tempo footy, and our guys will already have a solid knowledge base on which to build. But ultimately, despite Bolton's patience, the players and therefore the club obviously felt that we weren't improving fast enough, and the effect was going to cause problems in other areas than on-field.

I'd be really curious, given some non-existent magic powers, to see just what would happen if you got a team of 30+ talented young footballers with 100% commitment to Bolton's long-term development plan. Absolute, unwavering, unshakable faith in it. I think it could work. But the AFL environment isn't conducive to such long term projects.
 
Macca43 said:
A system doesn't work if only some players adhere to it.

If we compare your "licence to play" with a "licence to drive" these blokes still need to be told the rules of the road, do their 120 hours of supervised driving on their L's before stepping through the graduated P's system and then with that solid grounding they can go out with a full licence.

Even if you look at LOB this week, one of the main reasons I was so impressed with him was that Hill had no impact on the game, LOB kept the base that Bolton had given him and added the extra layer of "instinct" and "freedom".

Remember the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Click to expand...
I understand what ur saying, but if we're relating it to driving id say, they have left lanes, right lanes, overtaking lanes and different speed zones. For me Bolton was trying to keep everyone on a single lane rather than building the system to incorporate blokes who are different operators to the ordinary travelers. That was my issue with him, I just didn't feel like he was giving certain players the freedom they needed to play at their best, while on the other hand other guys didn't need it and worked in the system perfectly. I think Teague is doing a better job of that given his short time in the job, but back to this thread I'm really happy LOB is performing great the last 3 weeks, whether it was Bolts, Teague or something else... I'm just happy hes playing well
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
I understand what ur saying, but if we're relating it to driving id say, they have left lanes, right lanes, overtaking lanes and different speed zones. For me Bolton was trying to keep everyone on a single lane rather than building the system to incorporate blokes who are different operators to the ordinary travelers. That was my issue with him, I just didn't feel like he was giving certain players the freedom they needed to play at their best, while on the other hand other guys didn't need it and worked in the system perfectly. I think Teague is doing a better job of that given his short time in the job, but back to this thread I'm really happy LOB is performing great the last 3 weeks, whether it was Bolts, Teague or something else... I'm just happy hes playing well
Click to expand...
No matter what lane they are in they still have to abide by the rules and work within a framework to avoid complete carnage.

Teague's advantage is that the players have been in Boltons system already, he can give them freedom because they have learnt the system.
 
FitzroyBlueBagger said:
Taking the burden off of Dow and Fisher by playing them more outside than high game minutes on seasoned players has been so much better for them already, not wanting to back over old ground but how on earth we had Ed playing forward and Jack not utilised through the middle as the bigger bodies to support Crippa still baffles me...
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Ed playing forward while our young mids copped a bashing made me cringe .. was such as waste..
 

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WalshistheGOAT said:
Samo, Plowman and LOB have always been the indicators for me that Bolton had to go. I spent 3 years watching Samo go from playing off of instincts to literally seeing him see the option he wanted to take, hesitate, stop... and then eventually kicking it down along the boundary, I watched Plowman go from a rock solid user of the ball who seemed to have the smarts to make it, to one of the most frustrating and unreliable, I watched LOB in pre season looking incredible and damaging, to absolutely putrid in the early half of the season. These 3 players are the ones u can see it the most, they do 3-4 headswivels before every kick, they had the natural instinct to go inboard and hit targets that really opened games up, and it was taken away from them. I think Bolton should be seen as a hero for keeping a positive energy among the club in a tough time and setting the foundations of a team defense, but he was killing our natural players talents and instincts. I saw one or 2 games every year where I said 'WOW' Samo, Plowman, LOB, these young guys who are extremely talented and u can just see the hesitation in their eyes. Once or twice a year they just seem to throw out the structure Bolton had set and they looked like world beaters. Teague might not be doing much differently, but clearly the freedom has got our more instinctive players back to their best
Click to expand...
And no coincidence we seem more assured in defence as a result. The fact we're averaging an extra 10 inside 50s since Teague took over certainly helps. The change in structure is definitely coach driven and this is where Bolton failed.
 
SurreyBlue said:
Bolton was killing the kids bodies. You can develop youngsters while not thrashing them. I think we have dodged a bullet by making the change now. He did this last year with injured players as well. Just plain wrong when it comes to youngsters.
Click to expand...
What's your evidence for that? I don't see any recurring injuries. Tired bodies, yes, but it's round 15 with young bodies, that's all. Bolts was teaching them to endure. Look at Weitering now, he looks match hardened now both physically mentally.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
He'll be a gun, I don't care what anyone says.

Not saying he won't have bad moments or even entire games, he's young, but look at what happens when he has a bit of confidence and freedom. The potential is clear to see.
 
Soapy V said:
I see it as playing our best players in their best positions. In Boltons first year when he did that he won a few games. As he preferenced development and the rebuild over wins it became tough. As side focussed on wins first wouldn't play Curnow up forward and Murphy on a wing. If 4-5 weeks ago Bolton had said "okay we have done well now it's time to play free and at our best" we could have easily had similar results.
Click to expand...
Nope
 
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