Review Pies 82 def Dogs 73

[_M_16_]

Apparently McLean didn't play because he was the listed emergency for our game. VFL game may have been to soon before the preparation for ours began?

 

[Fossie 32]

Exactly this. In any game a 50% return on goals is expected, were not far off, but Collingwood just couldnt miss. Thats what won them the game. We did amazingly well considering Grundys dominance. If the pies kicked like mortals and ended up 9 goals 9, we win by 10.

Good game, beaten by an arsy bunch of bastards who couldnt miss on the day. DONT PANIC.

But please get Ryder to give Tim some relief.

Yes but it seems teams regularly have better than average accuracy against us so I suspect this is related to our game style somehow

 

[_M_16_]

Thought English matched up vs Grundy well in the first half. But Grundy smashed him in the same mould as the earlier year encounter in the second half. Just needs to push his opponents for longer and build more strength. To often we see rucks easy grab the ball at a bounce or throw in close to the goal square, and easily just kick a goal untouched, pushing their opponent to the side

 

[DognBones]

The second quarter exemplified much of our season. Complete dominance in the midfield but a stagnant scoreboard. So much hard work come to nothing. I agree with others that we overpossessed the ball and often put ourselves into worse positions particularly with overuse of handball. We took so long to set up our forward entries allowing Collingwood to fill all the spaces.
The reasons for this scenario have been well summed up in this thread:
midfielders who lack kicking penetration and the pace to break lines; lack of faith in key forwards; coaching instructions/game plan; too many low-skilled players who really shouldn't be taking shots on goal
At half time we should have been at least 3 or 4 goals up but were once again left to rue what could have been.
The frustrating thing is we are not far away from winning these types of games but we need to do a lot of fine-tuning between now and next season to do so.

 

[LondonBulldog]

What needs to be addressed is how you can win the stats, be first to the ball most times and lose a game. Its happened a bit this year. Personal and Coaching both played a part.

Personal
Without doubt we have too many stop and prop, slow the game up short kick players. Hunter, Dunks, Macrae, Daniel. Compared to our glory years and the run and all costs, take the game on, we have stagnated. Even on the turnover, we stop and prop, all the defenders get back and its too late for the easy goal. Not sure what we can do about it but I don't think the mix is right and contrary to a lot of people on here "we do not have one of the best midfields in the comp". We are middle at best.

Coaching
Part of the problem with our forward line is our game plan. All the defenders push up, Bevo play the territory game, lets keep it in our half. Well that great yet there is now space to leads into and even when there is our players are drummed into taking the short option or incapable of kicking a long pass (see above). You wonder why our kicking is rubbish compared to the opposition each week its because we are attempting harder shots at goal. Our push up defence gifts a few each week to the opposition.

Grundy was getting on top, the obviously move was Trengove to ruck, Naughten back, English forward yet the move never came? I'm not saying Trengove would have done much better but English needed the rest and the move forward may have been the spark.

We have enough accumulators of the footy, we need some star power with polish now. For me the forward line will only improve once our overall game plan adjusts slightly.

Roughie is an example of that. Bevo did not see him in our push up mobile defence, whereas Buckley sees the need for a big man on the last line of defence.

 

[DognBones]

What needs to be addressed is how you can win the stats, be first to the ball most times and lose a game. Its happened a bit this year. Personal and Coaching both played a part.

Personal
Without doubt we have too many stop and prop, slow the game up short kick players. Hunter, Dunks, Macrae, Daniel. Compared to our glory years and the run and all costs, take the game on, we have stagnated. Even on the turnover, we stop and prop, all the defenders get back and its too late for the easy goal. Not sure what we can do about it but I don't think the mix is right and contrary to a lot of people on here "we do not have one of the best midfields in the comp". We are middle at best.

Coaching
Part of the problem with our forward line is our game plan. All the defenders push up, Bevo play the territory game, lets keep it in our half. Well that great yet there is now space to leads into and even when there is our players are drummed into taking the short option or incapable of kicking a long pass (see above). You wonder why our kicking is rubbish compared to the opposition each week its because we are attempting harder shots at goal. Our push up defence gifts a few each week to the opposition.

Grundy was getting on top, the obviously move was Trengove to ruck, Naughten back, English forward yet the move never came? I'm not saying Trengove would have done much better but English needed the rest and the move forward may have been the spark.

We have enough accumulators of the footy, we need some star power with polish now. For me the forward line will only improve once our overall game plan adjusts slightly.

Roughie is an example of that. Bevo did not see him in our push up mobile defence, whereas Buckley sees the need for a big man on the last line of defence.

Good assessment. Just change "personal" to personnel.

 

[Igloo]

Gawn torched Grundy a couple of weeks ago.

It's also not the first or last time a lesser player will get on top of a superior one.

 

[theburst]

Frustrating day again, and lack of scoreboard pressure when dominating with set-shots off target and inside50s must keep Bevo awake at nights, even my man Suckling shouldn't have missed that sitter.

Other than looking for a player change or to every week perhaps we just have to give this team time as on experience we continue to be the least in average games against the opposition(81 vs 119 yesterday), average age(24.6 vs 26.7 yesterday) and games 50 or less (our 13 vs 8 yesterday). Its been like this nearly every game. How we got so young from a recent Premiership is another story for Footy Department to sell.

Don't know what other points to make...we did miss Libba's drive, Grundy made English look the kid especially in second half, Roughead looked fairly commanding, Sam Lloyd keeps being our most dangerous forward which is alarming.

 

[dogwatch]

Yes but it seems teams regularly have better than average accuracy against us so I suspect this is related to our game style somehow

Yes. I don't get to many live games and it's hard to tell from the TV but I think we have a higher press than most sides so we have a huge vacant paddock behind our defenders. Once it gets past the last defender they can waltz it in. Hence our opponents tend to have a high goal accuracy.

The other side of that equation is that the high press can help us lock the ball in our forward half as we did for long spells on Sunday. Also when we do manage to prevent the easy goal out the back we are around league average (or better?) at getting it out of there.

It's a high stakes game and it depends heavily on the discipline and savvy of our last defenders. It's also why we get reamed more than just about any other club on turnovers when the midfielders or half backs stuff it up.

I'm not saying the tactic is wrong. Just like the argument about playing down the line vs playing the diagonals it may be that it's our best chance of beating notionally better sides with the personnel we've got (younger, less physically developed, fewer quality talls, etc). It's just that it looks horrible when it comes unstuck.

 

[dogwatch]

Thought English matched up vs Grundy well in the first half. But Grundy smashed him in the same mould as the earlier year encounter in the second half. Just needs to push his opponents for longer and build more strength. To often we see rucks easy grab the ball at a bounce or throw in close to the goal square, and easily just kick a goal untouched, pushing their opponent to the side

I didn't see the Buckley press conference but he apparently pleaded with Grundy to lift in the second half. He clearly did that.
First half the hitouts were a tolerable 18-10 (Grundy-English). In the second half they were 32-6. Most of those would have been head to head.

It made a big difference, as did Grundy's around the ground contributions. Although I thought both of his goals were a tad lucky. The first was a seemingly short boundary throw in from the forward pocket that Grundy could simply run onto. The second was a terribly soft free kick. (However credit to Grundy - he was able to kick a goal from the set shot from just outside 50. We couldn't do that from inside 50.)

 

[Mofra]

It made a big difference, as did Grundy's around the ground contributions. Although I thought both of his goals were a tad lucky. The first was a seemingly short boundary throw in from the forward pocket that Grundy could simply run onto. The second was a terribly soft free kick. (However credit to Grundy - he was able to kick a goal from the set shot from just outside 50. We couldn't do that from inside 50.)

The first had nothing to do with English and everything to do with our terrible set up around the contest. Just one of our mids had to take the space between Grundy and the goal as the ball was thrown in, it was a terrible error. Our defenders had opponents to consider.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Yes. I don't get to many live games and it's hard to tell from the TV but I think we have a higher press than most sides so we have a huge vacant paddock behind our defenders. Once it gets past the last defender they can waltz it in. Hence our opponents tend to have a high goal accuracy.

The other side of that equation is that the high press can help us lock the ball in our forward half as we did for long spells on Sunday. Also when we do manage to prevent the easy goal out the back we are around league average (or better?) at getting it out of there.

It's a high stakes game and it depends heavily on the discipline and savvy of our last defenders. It's also why we get reamed more than just about any other club on turnovers when the midfielders or half backs stuff it up.

I'm not saying the tactic is wrong. Just like the argument about playing down the line vs playing the diagonals it may be that it's our best chance of beating notionally better sides with the personnel we've got (younger, less physically developed, fewer quality talls, etc). It's just that it looks horrible when it comes unstuck.

On results alone, you have to say its not working. Certain players don't implement it correctly, Cordy, always caught under the ball without a clue. Might be different with Morris in the defence.
I'm not totally against the push up yet if you play that game and we get a turn over, keep moving the thing and get it in quick (like when Murph, JJ etc. did) and give the forward a chance. With confidence down we are playing the possession game going forward and its not working. So for mind it needs a tweak.

 

[dogwatch]

On results alone, you have to say its not working. Certain players don't implement it correctly, Cordy, always caught under the ball without a clue. Might be different with Morris in the defence.
I'm not totally against the push up yet if you play that game and we get a turn over, keep moving the thing and get it in quick (like when Murph, JJ etc. did) and give the forward a chance. With confidence down we are playing the possession game going forward and its not working. So for mind it needs a tweak.

It could also be that Bevo is building for the long term. It may cost us at times now but as it becomes instilled and we develop with age and experience it might serve us well. It might also be why he is keen to blood speedy intercept defenders like Lachie Young.

It may well need a tweak - but more in the personnel than the strategy itself. Moz will definitely help.

 

[Luder]

Considering we were playing without Mitch Wallis, Tom Liberatore and Dale Morris, I think we did pretty well all things considered. This game just really highlighted how poor our forward coaching is this year

 

[AFDogs]

Considering we were playing without Mitch Wallis, Tom Liberatore and Dale Morris.

Those aren't massive outs aside from Libba.

 

[Yojimbo]

Considering we were playing without Mitch Wallis, Tom Liberatore and Dale Morris, I think we did pretty well all things considered. This game just really highlighted how poor our forward coaching is this year

What has forward coaching got to do with conversion ? NOTHING (Answered it for you)

We used the ball short to avoid Collingwood's tall players down the line, this was the
game plan a direct coaching directive, but this is labour intensive and results in an
incredible work rate from us to get a score opposed to a team with less possession
scoring with a less labour intensive approach to the game. Don't expect anything
different in the near future, just take the losses until we kick straight or play an
opponent who can't defend the air (AKA RICHMOND) with their injuries.

 

[Luder]

Those aren't massive outs aside from Libba.

Our defence has been absolutely abysmal this year. Having Morris back would be bigger than Libba returning.

Wallis is still a pretty big out imo. He provides eexperience and structure to our forward line. With both him and Gowers out, we basically don't have a medium forward

 

[Samael]

Every positive sign this game had is just painting over the cracks. Beveridge and the list management have completely neglected the forward line over the last 3 years, and it shows, badly.

To only pick up Sam Lloyd and Ben Cavarra (who hasn't played yet) in last year's off-season, after how bad our forward line was in 2018, is nothing short of disgraceful.

 

[Luder]

What has forward coaching got to do with conversion ? NOTHING (Answered it for you)

We used the ball short to avoid Collingwood's tall players down the line, this was the
game plan a direct coaching directive, but this is labour intensive and results in an
incredible work rate from us to get a score opposed to a team with less possession
scoring with a less labour intensive approach to the game. Don't expect anything
different in the near future, just take the losses until we kick straight or play an
opponent who can't defend the air (AKA RICHMOND) with their injuries.

When the entries were that bad, it points to a coaching issue. It wasn't just that kicks were being shanked, it's that we were constantly choosing shocking targets.

Also forward coaching does include learning to kick at goal, it's not all gameday coaching. It's one of the basic fundamentals that people seem to forget is still part of "coaching" - learning to kick. The fact that only Dickson and Schache are reliable kicks on goal says a lot about the standards we hold on goalkicking accuracy.

 

[Sedat!]

When Tim English learns how to ruck, our elite centre square midfield who managed in both games against the Pies to get plenty of clearances despite Grundy’s dominance, will be hard to beat.

He showed no aptitude for ruck craft at stoppages as a junior, so why is there an automatic expectation that he will eventually morph into Simon Madden? He has great attributes and is well worth persisting as a 2nd ruck/forward, but we are going to continue losing crucial matches if we throw him to the wolves as #1 ruck for 80% of game time. He should be rucking no more than 5-8 minutes a qtr and let Trengove do the bash & crash grunt work for the majority of the time. That means bringing in another tall defender, of which we have plenty at Footscray currently cracking walnuts.

Rucking English virtually solo is the single reason we are 5-8 instead of 8-5 - Goldy and Grundy x2 have monstered us in games we otherwise would have won if our coach had some basic respect for the stoppage work of talented opposition ruckmen.

 

[Luder]

Every positive sign this game had is just painting over the cracks. Beveridge and the list management have completely neglected the forward line over the last 3 years, and it shows, badly.

To only pick up Sam Lloyd and Ben Cavarra (who hasn't played yet) in last year's off-season, after how bad our forward line was in 2018, is nothing short of disgraceful.

Agree, but to be fair the club did have a red hot go at getting Wingard, who fit the description of the type we needed. They probably didn't think a key forward would be as vital considering we thought Boyd would be playing.

If the same happens this off-season, where we fail to pick up any substantial personnel for our forward line, then heads should roll

 

[dergert]

English didnt play bad at all. He is the future of our side. And im a massive wrap for his line coach for his development.

He needs some support though, but i dont think its coming.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Yes but it seems teams regularly have better than average accuracy against us so I suspect this is related to our game style somehow

It seems to me that they are all, except Dicko, Lloyd and Schache, very reluctant to be the one kicking for goal, hence short passing and handballing to no-one's advantage. There has to be some sort of incentive scheme to make them improve and be the one to take responsibility. I want to know WHY they are missing and lacking in confidence. It's got to be above the shoulders as they can easily pick out someone to kick accurately to in general play. Can we not plant someone behind the goals with a big target sign to hold up? They could practise hitting the target at training and then do the same at games. There has to be some solution, it's getting ridiculous.

 

[Yojimbo]

When the entries were that bad, it points to a coaching issue. It wasn't just that kicks were being shanked, it's that we were constantly choosing shocking targets.

Also forward coaching does include learning to kick at goal, it's not all gameday coaching. It's one of the basic fundamentals that people seem to forget is still part of "coaching" - learning to kick. The fact that only Dickson and Schache are reliable kicks on goal says a lot about the standards we hold on goalkicking accuracy.

The lack of understanding is strong in this one.. (Star Wars quote humour related)

 

[Golden_6]

The first had nothing to do with English and everything to do with our terrible set up around the contest. Just one of our mids had to take the space between Grundy and the goal as the ball was thrown in, it was a terrible error. Our defenders had opponents to consider.

I was at the game and could see that coming from a mile away. Grundy and English were both late to the contest with Grundy having about a 2m head start on English. The front of the stoppage was left wide open and all Grundy had to do was tap it down to himself and kick the goal. I couldn't believe such an easily avoidable situation happened.