Pies to target Key position forward in National Draft in November

Scodog10

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I’m not sure they would have even made top 4 without Lynch. He was incredibly important for them when Reiwoldt went down. I’m sure they would have lost a few more games at minimum if they were forced to play without a key forward.
Take him out and they 100% don’t beat Port in round 4 (I think). They lose that, they finish 5th and most likely face a trip to Perth in week two of the finals. No point dwelling on it though because winners are grinners.
 

Carringbush2010

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Yes but their ‘system’ was very reliant on at least one dominant tall being able to mark, or bring the ball to ground for their smalls. I’m not convinced that the likes of Balta, Chol and co. would have been able to adequately fill that role.
Our system is also, but both can still succeed without a dominant tall forward.
 

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Carringbush2010

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Good systems work for a while, but unless the players are flexible guns who can think on their feet, they're easy to pin down once you've worked out their system. In 2018, we had a backwards triangle system which used handball to free up a bloke in defence. It was studied and shut down pretty easily in 2019
There's more, and I'm not a believer our system was ever unpredictable. It was always known but even if the opp knew it was a very difficult to defeat.

The main reason it was "shut down" was not because it was worked out but because we tweaked it with disastrous effects. Seems the Richmond win in the early rounds was the aim - a lot different to the 2018 swarm and spread system that almost brought us success.

The north, hawks and dogs games is where it went awry, tried to control possession by slowing down transition and by extension the spread was too far and wide and it invited pressure. It was like Collingwood 2019 were being defeated by Collingwood 2018.

I fear if we don't return to that predictable but almost impossible to defeat style we'll waste our window and we'll still be bereft of success. Regardless of targeting a KPF or not.

The tigs have barely moved from their game plan for the last 3 years and have two flags to show for it, we almost bagged one then went the wrong way and still got zip. Ah yes good ol Collingwood.
 

sr36

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There's more, and I'm not a believer our system was ever unpredictable. It was always known but even if the opp knew it was a very difficult to defeat.

The main reason it was "shut down" was not because it was worked out but because we tweaked it with disastrous effects. Seems the Richmond win in the early rounds was the aim - a lot different to the 2018 swarm and spread system that almost brought us success.

The north, hawks and dogs games is where it went awry, tried to control possession by slowing down transition and by extension the spread was too far and wide and it invited pressure. It was like Collingwood 2019 were being defeated by Collingwood 2018.

I fear if we don't return to that predictable but almost impossible to defeat style we'll waste our window and we'll still be bereft of success. Regardless of targeting a KPF or not.

The tigs have barely moved from their game plan for the last 3 years and have two flags to show for it, we almost bagged one then went the wrong way and still got zip. Ah yes good ol Collingwood.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of systems. When we talk about cohesion, what we're really saying is - they're operating like an effective system. And I agree with you on the focus on us acquiring an individual heroic KPF who will carry us to glory - I just don't think it works that way.

But if you look at basketball with it's variety of different systems, there are tactics that bring down a particular system, which is why teams have a large range of different systems that they alternate between within games. Footy is not yet at that stage and may never be due to the large size of the field and the number of players, so teams with a system that is too rigid can be exploited by a team that has worked out how to combat that system. I think Collingwood's systems are a bit too rigid and we don't adjust them enough within games. I think that's best summed up by the last 3 minutes of the preliminary final, when we didn't step away from our control based stoppage system to a more attacking one that might have gotten the ball into space. EG. Grundy smashing the away from the congestion rather than controlling it at his feet. It was actually an issue for that entire game, because Mumford's tactic of regularly staying down to compete at ground level rather than competing in the air nullified Grundy's influence.
 
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Carringbush2010

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I think that's best summed up by the last 3 minutes of the preliminary final, when we didn't step away from our control based stoppage system to a more attacking one that might have gotten the ball into space. EG. Grundy smashing the away from the congestion rather than controlling it at his feet. It was actually an issue for that entire game, because Mumford's tactic of regularly staying down to compete at ground level rather than competing in the air nullified Grundy's influence.
Aha was at the game top tier at the punt rd pocket end, so a got a perfect view of how the giants beat Collingwood by playing like Collingwood, throughout the finals series they adopted a pressure game very similar to the revered Pies system of the year before. If that's shutting down our system then I agree BUT for the whole of 2019 we never got back to what almost snagged us an unlikely flag.

There is no known universe IMO that as good as they were they would've ever beaten our system from 2018. Having a star KPF in the pf this year would've helped us near zero. A KPF in last years PF was key - the way we played allowed surgical transition forward, no one not even the tigs were going to defeat that team that night. Nathan's vision was there for all to see in last years PF, why we have gone away from frenetic that served us so well to controlling possession ala wc or hawthorn style is perplexing for mine.

That tells me if we continue down the path of more orthodox transition control footy then we won't win a flag - we don't have the cattle like wc to compete at their own game. We HAVE TO rely on system.
 

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Moore played both forward and back as a junior.

Then started fwd for a few seasons before being thrown back.

Regardless if he is not used as a fwd (which he isn't currently) then he may as well of been drafted as a defender.
Moore was drafted as a defender and trained there. If I remember right Cloke was either injured or out of form and whoever else was there wasn’t, so Moore got pushed forward but he is a genuine AA defender.
 

sr36

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Aha was at the game top tier at the punt rd pocket end, so a got a perfect view of how the giants beat Collingwood by playing like Collingwood, throughout the finals series they adopted a pressure game very similar to the revered Pies system of the year before. If that's shutting down our system then I agree BUT for the whole of 2019 we never got back to what almost snagged us an unlikely flag.

There is no known universe IMO that as good as they were they would've ever beaten our system from 2018. Having a star KPF in the pf this year would've helped us near zero. A KPF in last years PF was key - the way we played allowed surgical transition forward, no one not even the tigs were going to defeat that team that night. Nathan's vision was there for all to see in last years PF, why we have gone away from frenetic that served us so well to controlling possession ala wc or hawthorn style is perplexing for mine.

That tells me if we continue down the path of more orthodox transition control footy then we won't win a flag - we don't have the cattle like wc to compete at their own game. We HAVE TO rely on system.
I'd argue that we played a system that tore their defensive system apart. Earlier this year we played a different style that tore their defensive system apart. Theyve adjusted their system.

I agree that we stuffed up by going too safe out of defence and looking to spread to receive kicks rather than running in a wave to receive handballs.

I just disagree with the idea of there being a perfect system.

The 201o and 2011 press was wonderful, until Geelong learnt to cut it apart with 45 degree kicks and teams have since adjusted presses to include outliers.

WCEs sagging defence is wonderful until teams learn to lower their eyes and hit up the opponent of the defender whose sagging towards the hot spot., etc..

Richmond's attacking system is a weapon that has endured, because its not really a system at all. Its just blokes taking off and running in a wave with good spacing, defenders not knowing who to cover off and the ball carrier having to make a good decision. The tiges don't know what's going to happen, let alone the defenders, because the ball carrier has a range of options.

Systems are great and work, until they get worked out.

Coaching a system is a great idea, but both coaches and players need to be able to make adjustments mid game. I think that is a bit of a weakness that dates back to Malthouses rigidity.(I loved him by the way, so not MM bashing)
 

Carringbush2010

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I'd argue that we played a system that tore their defensive system apart. Earlier this year we played a different style that tore their defensive system apart. Theyve adjusted their system.

I agree that we stuffed up by going too safe out of defence and looking to spread to receive kicks rather than running in a wave to receive handballs.

I just disagree with the idea of there being a perfect system.

The 201o and 2011 press was wonderful, until Geelong learnt to cut it apart with 45 degree kicks and teams have since adjusted presses to include outliers.

WCEs sagging defence is wonderful until teams learn to lower their eyes and hit up the opponent of the defender whose sagging towards the hot spot., etc..

Richmond's attacking system is a weapon that has endured, because its not really a system at all. Its just blokes taking off and running in a wave with good spacing, defenders not knowing who to cover off and the ball carrier having to make a good decision. The tiges don't know what's going to happen, let alone the defenders, because the ball carrier has a range of options.

Systems are great and work, until they get worked out.

Coaching a system is a great idea, but both coaches and players need to be able to make adjustments mid game. I think that is a bit of a weakness that dates back to Malthouses rigidity.(I loved him by the way, so not MM bashing)
In short summary, no system is perfect - agreed it's not possible purely because there is an opposition that won't allow it. But also in short summary unless we have a *near* perfect system (2018) then we don't have cattle to win a flag. The list we have as good as it is, is not on par with the likes of wc or giants.

Adjustments mid game................ hmmm when you get to AFL level, heck even A grade ammos you have enough nous to know when the game is not on your terms - particularly a team like ours, they know (or at least it was evident last year) and play for each other - the *almost* perfect system.

We've seen in games where momentum turns on the back of teams enforcing their system, in the Pies case it's pure effort, enforce the swarm and spread.

It may sound fundamental just to "outnumber at the contest" but in any case like I said, regardless of predictability at our best (2018) no one but no one beats that system.

The question for me is IF we target a high profile KPF and get one, will that KPF enhance our end game (flag)? Not so sure.
 

Carringbush2010

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I'd argue that we played a system that tore their defensive system apart. Earlier this year we played a different style that tore their defensive system apart. Theyve adjusted their system.

I agree that we stuffed up by going too safe out of defence and looking to spread to receive kicks rather than running in a wave to receive handballs.

I just disagree with the idea of there being a perfect system.

The 201o and 2011 press was wonderful, until Geelong learnt to cut it apart with 45 degree kicks and teams have since adjusted presses to include outliers.

WCEs sagging defence is wonderful until teams learn to lower their eyes and hit up the opponent of the defender whose sagging towards the hot spot., etc..

Richmond's attacking system is a weapon that has endured, because its not really a system at all. Its just blokes taking off and running in a wave with good spacing, defenders not knowing who to cover off and the ball carrier having to make a good decision. The tiges don't know what's going to happen, let alone the defenders, because the ball carrier has a range of options.

Systems are great and work, until they get worked out.

Coaching a system is a great idea, but both coaches and players need to be able to make adjustments mid game. I think that is a bit of a weakness that dates back to Malthouses rigidity.(I loved him by the way, so not MM bashing)
Apart from my reply it is a credit to Nathan and his knowledge of the game, to bring an under rated list to a GF and a PF speaks volumes.
 

sr36

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In short summary, no system is perfect - agreed it's not possible purely because there is an opposition that won't allow it. But also in short summary unless we have a *near* perfect system (2018) then we don't have cattle to win a flag. The list we have as good as it is, is not on par with the likes of wc or giants.

Adjustments mid game................ hmmm when you get to AFL level, heck even A grade ammos you have enough nous to know when the game is not on your terms - particularly a team like ours, they know (or at least it was evident last year) and play for each other - the *almost* perfect system.

We've seen in games where momentum turns on the back of teams enforcing their system, in the Pies case it's pure effort, enforce the swarm and spread.

It may sound fundamental just to "outnumber at the contest" but in any case like I said, regardless of predictability at our best (2018) no one but no one beats that system.

The question for me is IF we target a high profile KPF and get one, will that KPF enhance our end game (flag)? Not so sure.
I'm with you on the skepticism about one great kpf being the difference. Im with you on a system based approach being the way to go. I'm with you that we chose a system that didn't suit us thus year. I just think we have another issue on top of that. I think we're a bit too locked into our chosen system. I think we don’t adjust it quickly enough. All systems have their kryptonite and when we're exposed to kryptonite, we just keep running towards it over and over again.

Basically, I think we're extremely well coached, but their flaw is stubbornness, both within and between games.
 

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      Brendon Goddard has rated Collingwood’s list as the best list in the AFL heading into 2020. He ranked the magpie defensive stocks as the fourth-best in the competition, their midfield the third-best, their forward line the fourth-best and their rucks the best of any side.
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      Do you agree with Goddard?👇🏽
Midfield couldn't get a kick against GWS
 

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Timmy from Thomastown

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Which was Chris Dawes.

Him and Mason Cox could run training camps together on how not to mark a ball.
Dawes in fact was our third pick that season and the first two were also talls. All three of them the spine of our premiership team, along with Cloke. Reid could just as easily been an AA forward as an AA defender, had Malthouse chosen to develop him there instead.
 

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Apart from my reply it is a credit to Nathan and his knowledge of the game, to bring an under rated list to a GF and a PF speaks volumes.
Disagree, I think give credit to Longmuir turning our defence into a powerhouse. the review forced Bucks to realise he couldn't micromanage everything & let his coaches coach. I suspect the dink around game I despise is his input into the game plan. We play our best when we apply manic tackling pressure then play attacking football.
 

Carringbush2010

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I'm with you on the skepticism about one great kpf being the difference. Im with you on a system based approach being the way to go. I'm with you that we chose a system that didn't suit us thus year. I just think we have another issue on top of that. I think we're a bit too locked into our chosen system. I think we don’t adjust it quickly enough. All systems have their kryptonite and when we're exposed to kryptonite, we just keep running towards it over and over again.

Basically, I think we're extremely well coached, but their flaw is stubbornness, both within and between games.
Yeah can't argue with this, that's pretty spot on.
 

Carringbush2010

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Disagree, I think give credit to Longmuir turning our defence into a powerhouse. the review forced Bucks to realise he couldn't micromanage everything & let his coaches coach. I suspect the dink around game I despise is his input into the game plan. We play our best when we apply manic tackling pressure then play attacking football.
If I may rephrase, it's a credit to the coaching panel and to Nathan for relaxing his approach to coaching to get a list such us ours to a GF and PF.
 

Apex36

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If I may rephrase, it's a credit to the coaching panel and to Nathan for relaxing his approach to coaching to get a list such us ours to a GF and PF.
A list such as ours? I think you’re seriously underrating the talent we have on the books right now, and what we had back then. It’s more of a credit to what they were able to do in the last 2 years with the horrendous injury toll they’ve had to deal with.
 

sr36

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If I may rephrase, it's a credit to the coaching panel and to Nathan for relaxing his approach to coaching to get a list such us ours to a GF and PF.
I do think you're underrating our list. I'd have it second only to GWS. Although WCE getting Kelly and how good i think Ryan is going to be could have lifted them above us.
 

Carringbush2010

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I do think you're underrating our list. I'd have it second only to GWS. Although WCE getting Kelly and how good i think Ryan is going to be could have lifted them above us.
Disagree, both of those teams bat deeper in blue chip talent where as we might go deeper for fringe types or role players if you will. That's why if we are to succeed we need to step away from trying to control and slow down transition.

We don't have the talent to out west coast west coast, we have to suffocate and spread - that usually results in a "w"

Would a KPF benefit our system? Only if we play to it, ala PF 2018, it allows us time and space for smooth transition to that KPF (Cox).
 

Carringbush2010

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That might have been the case many times in the past (2003-4 most recently) ...............

But naaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

We are a very good team.
We are a very good team because of how we play, which is a result of how the team is coached and developed. If you look at the list from 2017 to 2018 there was near zero changes yet we went from 13th to a GF.

I'm not saying we don't have a good list but it's not the likes of wc or gws, we are good team because of how we play not so much because of our list.
 

sr36

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Disagree, both of those teams bat deeper in blue chip talent where as we might go deeper for fringe types or role players if you will. That's why if we are to succeed we need to step away from trying to control and slow down transition.

We don't have the talent to out west coast west coast, we have to suffocate and spread - that usually results in a "w"

Would a KPF benefit our system? Only if we play to it, ala PF 2018, it allows us time and space for smooth transition to that KPF (Cox).
In my mind, Collingwood, WCE, Richmond, GWS and Geelong have the 5 best lists with out that much between them. So I don't view finishing 2 and 4 as being remarkable, particularly as I think we were a bit flattered by a top 4 finish this year.

All teams play a pretty rigid defensive structure. It's the unpredictable looseness of the attacking system of Richmond that sets them apart as it makes it so hard to defend and it results in more numbers to the fall of the ball.

Essentially, because they like to run it in a wave, it enables more blokes to get forward before the defence is set than kicking it does. With a quick long kick you really need to hit your target because he's usually outnumbered at ground level and support can't arrive in time. With chip kicks you move it too slowly so the defence has time to shift back and set.

The extra numbers they get forward should make them susceptible on the rebound, but theyre so quick that the ectra numbers helps them to provide so much pressure that other teams rarely exit cleanly.

WCE are going to be scary next year. They added a fair bit more run and carry and looked good at times, nut didn't look like they were fully confident in their tweaks, so defaulted to drab and slow too often. Add Kelly whise made for that style and another year of that style and look out.

Collingwood need a bit of a reset from the drabness and caution that we showed in the first 3 quarters of most matches in 2019.
 
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Carringbush2010

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So I don't view finishing 2 and 4 as being remarkable, particularly as I think we were a bit flattered by a top 4 finish this year.
I agree, if you look at the Nafan fred back in 16 and 17 I've always stated that the team under performed and were under rated. The remarkable part is the turnaround with the same list.

It's the unpredictable looseness of the attacking system of Richmond that sets them apart as it makes it so hard to defend and it results in more numbers to the fall of the ball.
And it (was) the suffocation and spread that made the Pies so difficult to defeat in 18 - regardless of it being predictable.

The extra numbers they get forward should make them susceptible on the rebound, but the ectra numbers helps them to provide so much pressure that other teams rarely exit cleanly.
And we were susceptible to being outnumbered on the outside if we lost possession inside, but that was rare, every style has it's risk. WC are at risk of losing possession if they're not precise with transition, they'll be pressured into submission.

Look I'm not under rating our list, it's top 4 but even then it's not good enough on talent alone. We are system reliant and that system has turned good honest footballers into extra good honest footballers, Maynard and Langdon immediately come to mind.

And to be fair a big fish KPF won't hurt, I just question if it will actually enhance us given we've moved away from seemingly the best style of footy that suits us.
 

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