Pies to target Key position forward in National Draft in November

sr36

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We are a very good team because of how we play, which is a result of how the team is coached and developed. If you look at the list from 2017 to 2018 there was near zero changes yet we went from 13th to a GF.

I'm not saying we don't have a good list but it's not the likes of wc or gws, we are good team because of how we play not so much because of our list.
In terms of 2018 changes, youre ignoring the meteoric rises of Grundy and DeGoey, plus the general improvement from a range of others. I think you're also ignoring that we were a systematic shambles in 2017, so where we finished wasn't reflective of where our list was at. That systematic shambles was the work of our coaching staff. They did well to get us playing a great system in 2018, but it went a bit awry this year. I think you're marking the list too lowly and the coacjing too highly
 

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sr36

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I agree, if you look at the Nafan fred back in 16 and 17 I've always stated that the team under performed and were under rated. The remarkable part is the turnaround with the same list.



And it (was) the suffocation and spread that made the Pies so difficult to defeat in 18 - regardless of it being predictable.



And we were susceptible to being outnumbered on the outside if we lost possession inside, but that was rare, every style has it's risk. WC are at risk of losing possession if they're not precise with transition, they'll be pressured into submission.

Look I'm not under rating our list, it's top 4 but even then it's not good enough on talent alone. We are system reliant and that system has turned good honest footballers into extra good honest footballers, Maynard and Langdon immediately come to mind.

And to be fair a big fish KPF won't hurt, I just question if it will actually enhance us given we've moved away from seemingly the best style of footy that suits us.
TBH, I'd prefer a stoppage mid to a KPF. I'd prefer Shuey or Prestia to Cameron, let alone the really top tier group of mids.
 

Carringbush2010

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In terms of 2018 changes, youre ignoring the meteoric rises of Grundy and DeGoey, plus the general improvement from a range of others. I think you're also ignoring that we were a systematic shambles in 2017, so where we finished wasn't reflective of where our list was at. That systematic shambles was the work of our coaching staff. They did well to get us playing a great system in 2018, but it went a bit awry this year. I think you're marking the list too lowly and the coacjing too highly
The rise of Grundy and DeGoey ARE borne of good coaching and development, I've been banging on about poor coaching and development previous to 18 since I got on BF.

Essentially we agree, the list has always been pretty good post the MM era - right now like I said it's top 4, that's as good as you can ask for and it was oh so close to being coached to success.

A KPF would probably improve it but like you said won't guarantee that elusive flag.

I think you're not marking the coaching and development highly enough.
 

Carringbush2010

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TBH, I'd prefer a stoppage mid to a KPF. I'd prefer Shuey or Prestia to Cameron, let alone the really top tier group of mids.
That would suit us better and you could argue we have that in Adams, Wills and Sier. A KPF we'd have to make use of to make it worthwhile.

The reason JDG, Elliott and to a lesser extent Checkers are good lead up forwards is because they're allowed the lead up usually as a result of swarm and spread footy. More so last year than this year because we've slowed down transition. Unless we create space i:e spread after the swarm then it's pointless chasing a KPF.
 

Carringbush2010

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Next year is a bit of a perfect storm with quite a few kids entering more mature years while our best veterans are still able to perform at top 22 levels, need to nail it, windows don't stay open forever.
Oh yes very much so! A star KPF will only help IF we play to our strengths.
 

sr36

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The rise of Grundy and DeGoey ARE borne of good coaching and development, I've been banging on about poor coaching and development previous to 18 since I got on BF.

Essentially we agree, the list has always been pretty good post the MM era - right now like I said it's top 4, that's as good as you can ask for and it was oh so close to being coached to success.

A KPF would probably improve it but like you said won't guarantee that elusive flag.

I think you're not marking the coaching and development highly enough.
If you hear Grundy talk about pre 2018 Collingwood and the negativity and the 'we must work harder' mantra, much of the development can be explained away as taking the shackles of bad coaching off.

One thing you should learn quickly as a coach is that if you focus too much on errors and the need to improve a weakness, most players become less confident and make more errors. I reckon thats where we are at pre 2018. Our kicking for goal comes to mind.
 

Carringbush2010

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If you hear Grundy talk about pre 2018 Collingwood and the negativity and the 'we must work harder' mantra, much of the development can be explained away as taking the shackles of bad coaching off.

One thing you should learn quickly as a coach is that if you focus too much on errors and the need to improve a weakness, most players become less confident and make more errors. I reckon thats where we are at pre 2018. Our kicking for goal comes to mind.
That's exactly what the issue was with the under rated list pre 18, I've banged on about in the Buckley thread ad nauseum but most were in opposition to my view and were looking at the list as the problem.

I predicted a rise in the off season after 17 (The thread is somewhere in here you might remember it) with near zero list change IF the coaching and development would improve, and voila almost pulled off a flag.

It's been a grunt team for the last decade plus change but the potential has been wasted since 2012 to 18, and this year we're reverting to try and play like a hawthorn in their halcyon years - that would be waste of our strengths. I hope this is realized by the brains trust and return to what works best for our list.

Like I said a big fish KPF would improve the list IF we play to our strengths, if not it only looks good on paper.
 

partypie

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One bad game doesn’t define them just like one bad grand final doesn’t define GWS.

I’m no fan of Goddard but ranking Collingwood pretty high makes sense.

Having said that our midfield has failed us when it mattered most two years in a row - last quarter of the 2018 GF when we got smashed as badly as I've ever seen a midfield group get smashed in the last quarter and in that third quarter against GWS when it was pretty much the same story.

What we are missing is a Toby Greene-type of personality in the midfield who can see a situation going the wrong way and puts the team on his back for 10-15 minutes to wrestle control away from the opposition. Not saying we need the rest of the crap he brings to the table, but I respect his ability to turn a game around that looks like it is slipping away.
 

Timmy from Thomastown

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Having said that our midfield has failed us when it mattered most two years in a row - last quarter of the 2018 GF when we got smashed as badly as I've ever seen a midfield group get smashed in the last quarter and in that third quarter against GWS when it was pretty much the same story.

What we are missing is a Toby Greene-type of personality in the midfield who can see a situation going the wrong way and puts the team on his back for 10-15 minutes to wrestle control away from the opposition. Not saying we need the rest of the crap he brings to the table, but I respect his ability to turn a game around that looks like it is slipping away.
We lost because we weren the best. Its not easy being the best and being the best on the right day

De Goey would have been handy his year dont you think?
 

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partypie

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We lost because we weren the best. Its not easy being the best and being the best on the right day

De Goey would have been handy his year dont you think?
Maybe DeGoey because he would actually take the game on no matter what. I suspect he doesn't have the tank at the moment in terms of repeat efforts to run out a full game in the midfield so it's a bit of a tricky proposition with him. I'd love to see Maynard go into the midfield and have a crack if / when he learns a bit of midfield craft - he's the sort of bloke who wouldn't back down or go all passive when the opposition looks like they're getting a run on.

We just seem to have had an unfortunate penchant for going all "deer in the headlights" when the opposition midfield gets a run on and we don't seem to have any ability to slow or shut them down when it happens - we certainly don't appear to have anyone who is able to take the initative and just get the ball on those occasions.

It's lucky our defence has been so good for the past couple of years - their efforts are heavily underrated and they mitigate a lot of the potential damage when our midfield does collectively go missing for periods in a game.
 
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loki04

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Moore was drafted as a defender and trained there. If I remember right Cloke was either injured or out of form and whoever else was there wasn’t, so Moore got pushed forward but he is a genuine AA defender.
No he wasn't drafted as a 'defender'. He played majority of his junior career as a fwd in his last year of u18 he played both fwd and back but was overall veiwed as a fwd long term.

They initially trained him as a fwd after coming to the club as well. But obviously things have panned out the opposite.
 

sr36

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No he wasn't drafted as a 'defender'. He played majority of his junior career as a fwd in his last year of u18 he played both fwd and back but was overall veiwed as a fwd long term.

They initially trained him as a fwd after coming to the club as well. But obviously things have panned out the opposite.
I'm pretty sure that the talk from the club when drafted was leaning towards CHB. He started in defence in the VFL and Seniors. He then lookeed great when given a run up forward, so we locked into playing him forward.
 

Scodog10

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My two cents is that in the modern game guys aren’t pigeon holed on draft night. It’s just KPP and once they’re in the professional environment the club determines their best position on the basis of athletic traits, footy brain and personality.
 

sr36

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My two cents is that in the modern game guys aren’t pigeon holed on draft night. It’s just KPP and once they’re in the professional environment the club determines their best position on the basis of athletic traits, footy brain and personality.
Agree, but there's a lean and they're more expensive if clubs are leaning to KPF potential.
 

jackcass

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I’m not sure they would have even made top 4 without Lynch. He was incredibly important for them when Reiwoldt went down. I’m sure they would have lost a few more games at minimum if they were forced to play without a key forward.
I'm not so sure. They weren't a team that had a lot of close games with only had 3 games decided by less than 20 points, and Riewoldt played in 2 of those. They had another 5 games decided by 20-30 points. They won all 8 of them. Lynch kicking 6 goals against the Power (R4) in a game they won by 6 points is probably the only one and I'd have to look at a replay to assess it. From memory, it was early inaccuracy that cost them a more substantial win.
 

The hyphon

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Elijah Taylor really hope he slides to our pick.
Small forward with huge upside plaenty of X factor,deadly around goals plus has great pedigree and most importantly is a mad Pies supporter models his game on Leon Davis
 

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