Review Pies win a thriller (Blues 87-106 Pies)

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sr36

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If Bolton were a decent coach, he would have said in his post match presser “Neither free kick count nor the umpiring aren’t the reasons why we lost today”
It would have been a very Bolton comment. Like with many of his comments, the triple negative, (neither, nor, aren't) leaves me a tad confused.
 

jackcass

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We played as well as our laziness and lack of committed in the 1st half allowed us too.

Carlton wanted the ball more and we had a lot of lazy 2 step kicks straight to Carlton players. There was none of the urgency or dash that we had against Port the week before, probably thought we could rock up and win by 10 goals without needing any bruises
While more than a few seem incapable of it, I'm happy to acknowledge how well they played.
 

jackcass

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Agree with that. Was a bit stiff for the original 50 meter penalty though. Maynard was on the mark & decided to run off & take a running player. Maynard then pointed for Phillips to take the mark when he wasn't in a position to do so.
Agree. Phillips even ran out and around to get to the mark to ensure he didn't encroach, but got pinged anyway.
 
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That is exactly what happened and it is a definite tactic some coaches use now.

As usual the rule is half arsed and far too vague.
I agree that the rule change has been poorly thought through.

The origin of the 50 metre penalty was because the previous 15 was considered an inadequate penalty. The smart coaches had worked out that deliberately giving away 15 metres in return for the ability to reset your defence and get players behind the ball was a fair trade. The 50 metre penalty was designed to ensure that coaches would not choose this penalty as an option to slow down play. It was said at the time that 50 metres wiped out any advantage the offending side picked up.

So why are we here? What was wrong with time on being signalled unto the mark was set 50 metres downfield?

Perhaps it denied the team offended against the opportunity to play on. But if you think about it, they have just been brought 50 metres closer to goal in compensation for losing the right to play on.

Two 50s we saw yesterday illustrate why the rule change needs to be scrapped. Jack Crisp got about a 70 metre penalty because he ran flat out to and then past the umpire setting the mark. Smart footballers like Jack Riewoldt will do both the zig zag to get another penalty and run past the mark to get more than a 50.

This is the point. Any rule change needs to be thought through for how a coaching committee could exploit it. I don’t think this one was. Also, I think that it has lost sight of what it is trying to do. Has stopped being a leveller and has the capacity to provide an excessive advantage to the infringed team.
 

Pie eyed

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I’m really curious why in every close game we’ve had in the last 5 minutes we’ve had De Goey on the pine. I don’t care for rotations or minutes there’s no excuse imo that our match winner isn’t on the field when it counts
AFL banned runners....
Every side is struggling with it.
I say put little headphone in all the player ears.
**** the AFL, they change the rules for no reason constantly.
 

TradeDraft

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Any danger that just once the Collingwood team can come out against Carlton and play like it’s our grand final rather the other way around?

We came out and once again played that scrappy gameplan that we have done so most of the year. No flair, no quick ball movement. Did it against Geelong, West Coast, Bulldogs, Essendon. We only really played decent against the Lions and to some extent against Richmond and Port.

Won a few of those games against inferior opposition but if we rely on this type of style going forward, it’s going to be a long year.
We played to much of that old **** Gameplan Bucks use to love it a lot of Backwards and Sideways Kicks
 

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I wasn’t able to watch much of the match and it’s unlikely I’ll catch up so I can’t add a lot, but I’ll try to go into depth on the few things I feel comfortable commenting on.

It seems they did very well shutting our uncontested ball use down. We entered the match averaging 115 marks a game and they held us to just 91. My gut feel says that the down days of a few of our defenders were because we weren’t able to move the ball effectively from the back half. We turned it over closer to goal than we have been exposing us on the turnover. This also lead to a drop in kicking efficiency.

One point that fascinates me based on the above is that Carlton went away from their identity in order to choke us up. Tactically it was fantastic and to me it’s the best way to beat us. The query I have on that is whether it’s in their long term interests. IMO, switching your identity week to week results in a lack of cohesion and by coaching for wins rather than sustained success you set yourself back as we did from 14-17. Carlton should take note of how Brisbane approach the better teams. They own their style and whilst it comes unstuck at times (their record against us under Fagan is terrible) the wheel will turn. It’s for this reason that even a loss would have been frustrating not disappointing. It also leaves Bolton on a knifes edge because it’s not sustainable and they’ll lose next week.

Part of the match I did watch was the last quarter with 10 minutes on the clock until about 2 minutes on the clock. In that time Cripps touched the ball once (the OOF that resulted in Brown’s goal) and that’s your ball game. His influence on their system is as profound as Grundy’s on ours. It begs the question of why we gave the job to Wills (based on commentary) if anyone had the job at all? He was effectively 2+ years out of the game so I’d like to have an understanding of the thought process around that because he really was thrown to the wolves if he had the job. IMO, against guys like Cripps and Oliver we need to have a bigger rotation with Pendles, JDG and Sier getting the bulk of the midfield minutes otherwise we become predictable especially against teams that Grundy dominates.

Carlton’s final 5 minutes is perhaps some of the worst footy I’ve seen this season. They absolutely blew it with some howlers. Silvagni (I think) gives away a cheap 50 and no one man’s the mark, Crisp goals. Cripps rushes a kick outside 50 OOF, ball is pumped back in to mass congestion and Carlton has no one on the goal line, Brown dribbles one through from 20 out. We get a 2 v 1 inside 50 with a point the difference when it needed to be a 3 v 2 their way, JDG soccers one through. Weitering completely duffs a kick exiting 50, Phillips goals. Blame the umpires all you like, but that’s what 5-6 blatant errors in a 5 minute stretch of footy.

The umpiring. My general thoughts are that the free kick tally does not need to be even and that it’s the ones they miss that have the greatest impact. I can’t go too deeply into it, but the two blatant errors I saw cancelled each other out, the missed goal review and JT’s contact below the knees. Watching the replay back if the JT one was paid we extend the lead to 13 points and I don’t think Carlton has it in them to come back from that. Moments matter and that particular non-decision had as large a bearing on the result as the botched goal review. One other observation whilst I believe it was interpreted correctly I dislike the spirit of the rule which penalised Phillips. My feel was that Cuningham played on in order for Phillips to infringe, but he shouldn’t have been there anyway so I’m ok with it. Like the contact below the needs it should be scrapped, IMO.

Lastly I wanted to pump up the tyres of Brown. I still have queries on him long term, but we’re now seeing his floor. With extra competitiveness that seems to have come with an extended run of senior footy his output is rivalling Blair’s. He has a wicked cutback step which makes him genuinely difficult to tackle, but he needs that extra 3-5 kg’s to become a full time mid. That and the refined skill that comes with continuity will be what separates him from a Blair standard and a Z Merrett standard. The reason why I have queries long term is that I believe the game has moved on from the Blair’s of the world.
 
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sr36

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I wasn’t able to watch much of the match and it’s unlikely I’ll catch up so I can’t add a lot, but I’ll try to go into depth on the few things I feel comfortable commenting on.

It seems they did very well shutting our uncontested ball use down. We entered the match averaging 115 marks a game and they held us to just 91. My gut feel says that the down days of a few of our defenders were because we weren’t able to move the ball effectively from the back half. We turned it over closer to goal than we have been exposing us on the turnover. This also lead to a drop in kicking efficiency.

One point that fascinates me based on the above is that Carlton went away from their identity in order to choke us up. Tactically it was fantastic and to me it’s the best way to beat us. The query I have on that is whether it’s in their long term interests. IMO, switching your identity week to week results in a lack of cohesion and by coaching for wins rather than sustained success you set yourself back as we did from 14-17. Carlton should take note of how Brisbane approach the better teams. They own their style and whilst it comes unstuck at times (their record against us under Fagan is terrible) the wheel will turn. It’s for this reason that even a loss would have been frustrating not disappointing. It also leaves Bolton on a knifes edge because it’s not sustainable and they’ll lose next week.

Part of the match I did watch was the last quarter with 10 minutes on the clock until about 2 minutes on the clock. In that time Cripps touched the ball once (the OOF that resulted in Brown’s goal) and that’s your ball game. His influence on their system is as profound as Grundy’s on ours. It begs the question of why we gave the job to Wills (based on commentary) if anyone had the job at all? He was effectively 2+ years out of the game so I’d like to have an understanding of the thought process around that because he really was thrown to the wolves if he had the job. IMO, against guys like Cripps and Oliver we need to have a bigger rotation with Pendles, JDG and Sier getting the bulk of the midfield minutes otherwise we become predictable especially against teams that Grundy dominates.

Carlton’s final 5 minutes is perhaps some of the worst footy I’ve seen this season. They absolutely blew it with some howlers. Silvagni (I think) gives away a cheap 50 and no one man’s the mark, Crisp goals. Cripps rushes a kick outside 50 OOF, ball is pumped back in to mass congestion and Carlton has no one on the goal line, Brown dribbles one through from 20 out. We get a 2 v 1 inside 50 with a point the difference when it needed to be a 3 v 2 their way, JDG soccers one through. Weitering completely duffs a kick exiting 50, Phillips goals. Blame the umpires all you like, but that’s what 5-6 blatant errors in a 5 minute stretch of footy.

The umpiring. My general thoughts are that the free kick tally does not need to be even and that it’s the ones they miss that have the greatest impact. I can’t go too deeply into it, but the two blatant errors I saw cancelled each other out, the missed goal review and JT’s contact below the knees. Watching the replay back if the JT one was paid we extend the lead to 13 points and I don’t think Carlton has it in them to come back from that. Moments matter and that particular non-decision had as large a bearing on the result as the botched goal review. One other observation whilst I believe it was interpreted correctly I dislike the spirit of the rule which penalised Phillips. My feel was that Cuningham played on in order for Phillips to infringe, but he shouldn’t have been there anyway so I’m ok with it. Like the contact below the needs it should be scrapped, IMO.

Lastly I wanted to pump up the tyres of Brown. I still have queries on him long term, but we’re now seeing his floor. With extra competitiveness that seems to have come with an extended run of senior footy his output is rivalling Blair’s. He has a wicked cutback step which makes him genuinely difficult to tackle, but he needs that extra 3-5 kg’s to become a full time mid. That and the refined skill that comes with continuity will be what separates him from a Blair standard and a Z Merrett standard. The reason why I have queries long term is that I believe the game has moved on from the Blair’s of the world.
Defensively, in their forward half, they were right onto the way we like to feed the ball bachwards in general play, they covered off the backwards outlet really well. In terms of them changing their style for us, i think that's the next logical development in strategy. As the game has become more tactical, we've gone through a period of imbedded game plans and systems. I think we'll now move to more fluid strategies depending on match up and game situation. I think we're already there.
 

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Defensively, in their forward half, they were right onto the way we like to feed the ball bachwards in general play, they covered off the backwards outlet really well. In terms of them changing their style for us, i think that's the next logical development in strategy. As the game has become more tactical, we've gone through a period of imbedded game plans and systems. I think we'll now move to more fluid strategies depending on match up and game situation. I think we're already there.
IMO, it’s unlikely clubs shift until a team becomes successful with it and that’s a long way off because of the difficulties it presents around cohesion and shared growth.

Given it’s the first time we’ve seen it against us this year I’d be inclined to suggest we aren’t there already. I’d personally go as far as to say that once Carlton become legit they’ll really struggle with us because their identity will be untested against us.
 

Somebody

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+1

When Collingwood aren’t playing, I do enjoy watching Carlton get belted for entertainment ...

... so I’ve seen a bunch of Carlton games this year. This year they’re a very different team and are becoming scary good.

No way will they finish the year bottom of the ladder. I reckon they could easily win half of their remaining games.



I don’t think they have. I reckon Bolton needs to go before Carlton can fully realise their potential.



If Bolton were a decent coach, he would have said in his post match presser “Neither free kick count nor the umpiring aren’t the reasons why we lost today”
I think he pretty much did.
 

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That is exactly what happened and it is a definite tactic some coaches use now.

As usual the rule is half arsed and far too vague.
Worked in our favour in the Crisp 50m penalty incident as they didn't man the mark and allowed him to run to nearly 50 before kicking. Infringing Carlton player did the right thing and stepped away but was let down by his team mates down field.
 

jackcass

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A bit harsh. Even when he is not at 100% fitness WHE is able to do things others can't. Yesterday in the last when the game needed winning is a case in point.

I would agree that he isn't at his 2018 standards but I don't see anyone in the 2s with his talents knocking down the doors. Players of that calibre are afforded time to find their groove as match conditioning returns because you know they'll offer you a return come the business end of the season.
More than half the team haven't reached the lofty heights of their respective 2018 seasons yet. It's why we are playing such inconsistent footy. No biggy this early in the season but I admit I'm waiting and expecting it all to click sometime soon.
 

JB1975

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Lastly I wanted to pump up the tyres of Brown. I still have queries on him long term, but we’re now seeing his floor. With extra competitiveness that seems to have come with an extended run of senior footy his output is rivalling Blair’s. He has a wicked cutback step which makes him genuinely difficult to tackle, but he needs that extra 3-5 kg’s to become a full time mid. That and the refined skill that comes with continuity will be what separates him from a Blair standard and a Z Merrett standard. The reason why I have queries long term is that I believe the game has moved on from the Blair’s of the world.
I can't predict the future of of Brown or the state of the game, but in the interests of both I hope that the bolded is incorrect. I hope that the game continues to need a variety of playing types, including the smaller but strong little blokes with a manic need to work through congestion and the awareness and skill to do it. The game moved on from Blair, no doubt, but I feel confident that Brown is already a better player and that he'll continue to improve his game.

Carlton’s final 5 minutes is perhaps some of the worst footy I’ve seen this season. They absolutely blew it with some howlers. Silvagni (I think) gives away a cheap 50 and no one man’s the mark, Crisp goals. Cripps rushes a kick outside 50 OOF, ball is pumped back in to mass congestion and Carlton has no one on the goal line, Brown dribbles one through from 20 out. We get a 2 v 1 inside 50 with a point the difference when it needed to be a 3 v 2 their way, JDG soccers one through. Weitering completely duffs a kick exiting 50, Phillips goals. Blame the umpires all you like, but that’s what 5-6 blatant errors in a 5 minute stretch of footy.
Carlton's lack of experience cost them composure, and it cost them dearly. We did well to turn the screws, but a more self-assured team --which is what Carlton look to be becoming-- wouldn't be letting that game slip away.
 

jackcass

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^ 100%

I feel this is why he was rushed back, because we don't really have a WHE replacement in the 2s.

Having said that, I'd expect his output to increase over the next few weeks unless he is coming back from a very low fitness base.
Yep, the 2 most obvious replacement types I'd suggest are Murphy and T Brown who are both injured at the moment.
 

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Glad to see that everyone has woken up to the fact that De Goey has a set shot problem, as I flagged a month ago. I see it as mental, but bow to those who can identify as a technique problem. I base my view on the way that he rushes his set shots, with little in the way of a fixed routine.

Stephenson seems to be infected now. The two set shots from about 40 that didn't make the distance and were veering off anyway could be the first signs.

Our best shots at goal, Elliott and Hoskin-Elliott are not getting many goes at it. Thomas, who couldn't miss last year, is having problems. Brown is afraid of set shots too.

Mihocek remains reliably accurate, but overall, our forwards can't be relied upon to kick the set shot goals from moderate distances that should be their staple diet. We have no long range (outside 50) goalkicker that is consistent. We get most of our goals from in close, and when teams clog this area up, we struggle.
Like it wasn't as obvious as dogs balls on a budgie....
 

sr36

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IMO, it’s unlikely clubs shift until a team becomes successful with it and that’s a long way off because of the difficulties it presents around cohesion and shared growth.

Given it’s the first time we’ve seen it against us this year I’d be inclined to suggest we aren’t there already. I’d personally go as far as to say that once Carlton become legit they’ll really struggle with us because their identity will be untested against us.
By we are already there, i meant Collingwood not the competition ss a whole. I think we are already trying to significantly adjust our ball movement depending on the defensive look thrown at us.
 

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Gotta admit, I like to kick Phillips but he had a real crack in that last quarter. Good effort.
ABC commentators gave him BOG but for mine it was clearly a game where the good-bad Phillips pendulum was predominantly in the bad Phillips zone. Redeemed himself with a mighty last 10 minutes of the game and probably broke even. I noticed the Blues structured up with Fisher and Curnow as his opponent for the majority of the game which was smart.
 

sr36

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Worked in our favour in the Crisp 50m penalty incident as they didn't man the mark and allowed him to run to nearly 50 before kicking. Infringing Carlton player did the right thing and stepped away but was let down by his team mates down field.
Problem with the rule is the players downfield don't know where the mark is, so they can't get in Crisps way until the umpire steps out 50 or calls him as having played on. The rule wasn't thought out properly.
 

nahnah

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I wasn’t able to watch much of the match and it’s unlikely I’ll catch up so I can’t add a lot, but I’ll try to go into depth on the few things I feel comfortable commenting on.

It seems they did very well shutting our uncontested ball use down. We entered the match averaging 115 marks a game and they held us to just 91. My gut feel says that the down days of a few of our defenders were because we weren’t able to move the ball effectively from the back half. We turned it over closer to goal than we have been exposing us on the turnover. This also lead to a drop in kicking efficiency.

One point that fascinates me based on the above is that Carlton went away from their identity in order to choke us up. Tactically it was fantastic and to me it’s the best way to beat us. The query I have on that is whether it’s in their long term interests. IMO, switching your identity week to week results in a lack of cohesion and by coaching for wins rather than sustained success you set yourself back as we did from 14-17. Carlton should take note of how Brisbane approach the better teams. They own their style and whilst it comes unstuck at times (their record against us under Fagan is terrible) the wheel will turn. It’s for this reason that even a loss would have been frustrating not disappointing. It also leaves Bolton on a knifes edge because it’s not sustainable and they’ll lose next week.

Part of the match I did watch was the last quarter with 10 minutes on the clock until about 2 minutes on the clock. In that time Cripps touched the ball once (the OOF that resulted in Brown’s goal) and that’s your ball game. His influence on their system is as profound as Grundy’s on ours. It begs the question of why we gave the job to Wills (based on commentary) if anyone had the job at all? He was effectively 2+ years out of the game so I’d like to have an understanding of the thought process around that because he really was thrown to the wolves if he had the job. IMO, against guys like Cripps and Oliver we need to have a bigger rotation with Pendles, JDG and Sier getting the bulk of the midfield minutes otherwise we become predictable especially against teams that Grundy dominates.

Carlton’s final 5 minutes is perhaps some of the worst footy I’ve seen this season. They absolutely blew it with some howlers. Silvagni (I think) gives away a cheap 50 and no one man’s the mark, Crisp goals. Cripps rushes a kick outside 50 OOF, ball is pumped back in to mass congestion and Carlton has no one on the goal line, Brown dribbles one through from 20 out. We get a 2 v 1 inside 50 with a point the difference when it needed to be a 3 v 2 their way, JDG soccers one through. Weitering completely duffs a kick exiting 50, Phillips goals. Blame the umpires all you like, but that’s what 5-6 blatant errors in a 5 minute stretch of footy.

The umpiring. My general thoughts are that the free kick tally does not need to be even and that it’s the ones they miss that have the greatest impact. I can’t go too deeply into it, but the two blatant errors I saw cancelled each other out, the missed goal review and JT’s contact below the knees. Watching the replay back if the JT one was paid we extend the lead to 13 points and I don’t think Carlton has it in them to come back from that. Moments matter and that particular non-decision had as large a bearing on the result as the botched goal review. One other observation whilst I believe it was interpreted correctly I dislike the spirit of the rule which penalised Phillips. My feel was that Cuningham played on in order for Phillips to infringe, but he shouldn’t have been there anyway so I’m ok with it. Like the contact below the needs it should be scrapped, IMO.

Lastly I wanted to pump up the tyres of Brown. I still have queries on him long term, but we’re now seeing his floor. With extra competitiveness that seems to have come with an extended run of senior footy his output is rivalling Blair’s. He has a wicked cutback step which makes him genuinely difficult to tackle, but he needs that extra 3-5 kg’s to become a full time mid. That and the refined skill that comes with continuity will be what separates him from a Blair standard and a Z Merrett standard. The reason why I have queries long term is that I believe the game has moved on from the Blair’s of the world.
They completely shut down our overlap run off half back which was impressive.
After we took the lead through Browns goal they gave themselves no chance of winning the game though, they let us have Howe and Langdon loose in the center creating a wall they were never going to break through without evening up the numbers. It was a strange choice to pretty much allow us to choke them into coughing up goals. After De Goeys goal we didn’t press up as high but as you said they turned the ball over under not much pressure.
Our delivery forward across the game was disappointing, with no Cox down there to create contests in the air we really had to hit up our smalls on the lead which we only did occasionally.
 
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Defensively, in their forward half, they were right onto the way we like to feed the ball bachwards in general play, they covered off the backwards outlet really well. In terms of them changing their style for us, i think that's the next logical development in strategy. As the game has become more tactical, we've gone through a period of imbedded game plans and systems. I think we'll now move to more fluid strategies depending on match up and game situation. I think we're already there.
That's a great post. Top teams always are dissected and counter-planned of course. WAs wondering what part of our style they might start attacking now that we are a recognised top 4 side. If waht you say is true and from my limited watching here in philly that does seem to be a big part our style but now being emulated by most sides. So great coaching from Bolton but it wouldn't require much tweeking I don't think although could remove some of our advantage thus levelling the playing field. Obviously we are also all very curious about how Geelong is going to be dissected and counter-planned.

Seems that formation behind the ball also drives the opposition back when they have possession, into the waiting arms of our players forward of the ball and those numbers seem to be sufficient too so ti's a pretty good balance. but Carlton countered that though I'm not sure how.
 

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Problem with the rule is the players downfield don't know where the mark is, so they can't get in Crisps way until the umpire steps out 50 or calls him as having played on. The rule wasn't thought out properly.
Agree, the umpire should hand off to the umpire downfield to set the mark so someone can stand the mark. That umpire can also watch for the player going off his line and call play-on.
 
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