Roast Player development

[Gone Critical]

G C I think people are getting caught up with the name "Sier" in all of this.

I think Sco raises a valid point (thread) about our development.

"Maybe" the immature player in the future (e.g Sier) should be placed on the rookie list as opposed to the senior list sooner.
This is a professional sport not some local footy team.

If the things raised were happening its a major concern.

I just havent been able to find where the details of Sco's complaits are. In particular where did it say Buckley had a chat to Sier and that turned his attitude because that seemed to be what triggered Sco's concern

 

[jackcass]

G C I think people are getting caught up with the name "Sier" in all of this.

I think Sco raises a valid point (thread) about our development.

"Maybe" the immature player in the future (e.g Sier) should be placed on the rookie list as opposed to the senior list sooner.
This is a professional sport not some local footy team.

It's a valid historical point based on scant knowledge cobbled together largely by guesswork by people whom I assume bring little by way of expertise to the discussion, but valid none the less.

 

[Scodog10]

I may have missed a few things here but where is the article did it mention Bucks had a talk to Sier at 18 months and that was the trigger to turn his attitude.

The only reference I could see was

"Buckley disclosed that the 20-year-old's cause hadn't been helped by a less than professional attitude in his first season-and-a-half at the Holden Centre.

"By his own admission, (he) probably didn't have football high enough in his priorities in the first 18 months (of his time at the club).

"The last half of last year Brayden really knuckled down and saved his career at Collingwood in many ways, and showed at the club that he was serious about being an AFL footballer. So he earned another year on his contract."

All I could really read into it was a 17 yo who came from a non elite pathway, didnt do the TAC pathway and was slow to realise the committment need to play AFL. I am sure the development people were working with him from day 1 and not neglecting this.

I think thats the likely senario but at the end of the day we are light on details and its more dangerous to make too rapid conclusions when we dont know what went on.

This is kind of what I was getting at in the OP which Jasper highlighted as shutting down discussion. The thrust of the thread wasn’t directed at Sier (a point I made directly in the OP) and his development in particular, but rather a highlight point of development in general at the club...

 

[CFC2010]

If the things raised were happening its a major concern.

I just havent been able to find where the details of Sco's complaits are. In particular where did it say Buckley had a chat to Sier and that turned his attitude because that seemed to be what triggered Sco's concern

Buckley QA from last night........check Bucks Thread

 

[jackcass]

Made me check on who our development coaches are and I could only find one - Gotch who started last year. Rivers was another one until he was appointed coach of VFL.
http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/season/coaches
Very strange given the number of young players we have on our list.

I think Boyd was added in a development role as well.

 

[Gone Critical]

This is kind of what I was getting at in the OP which Jasper highlighted as shutting down discussion. The thrust of the thread wasn’t directed at Sier and his development in particular, but rather a highlight point of development in general at the club...

But you did mention this

"Why were they not working on that with him sooner? If they were working on it with him what on earth were they doing if all it took was a chat with the senior coach for him to turn the corner? That’s not the coaches role and if this is happening on a regular basis (a chat with Aish has apparently had a similar impact) no wonder he’s failed with such poor support"

It's a pretty specific piece of information and forms a major part of your criticism of our development coaches. I just haven't been able to find where you found reference of the "chat" so just am asking where you found that.

 

[Bard]

Honestly many great points have been made here by everyone. Based on the lists of ‘developed or not’ players, and general opinion I’d venture to say that our development is definitely neither the worst, and nor is it very good. In fact I think it probably reflects our ladder positions over the recent years.

What I do think has been missed slightly in this discussion however is that the players lacking development seem to have been absolved of guilt. In reality they’re the ones who have the most control over their professionalism. So if we’re to give Sier any credit at all for turning things around, he should be damned for failing to do so earlier. But then I’ve never seen the point in holding overly negative opinions about our players, I save that for Carlton.

 

[Scodog10]

If the things raised were happening its a major concern.

I just havent been able to find where the details of Sco's complaits are. In particular where did it say Buckley had a chat to Sier and that turned his attitude because that seemed to be what triggered Sco's concern

You’ve managed to confuse me now. My complaints are limited to player development and from that I’ve raised a number of questions to illicit discussion around how we can be better with a central focal point of why it took 18 months for the adjustment to take place.

Perhaps you’re focusing too intensely on Sier, the article and how he fits in with the context of my line of questions and discussion points? My own thought process is evolving with the discussion so I can’t really assist much further in guiding your understanding...

 

[Scodog10]

But you did mention this

"Why were they not working on that with him sooner? If they were working on it with him what on earth were they doing if all it took was a chat with the senior coach for him to turn the corner? That’s not the coaches role and if this is happening on a regular basis (a chat with Aish has apparently had a similar impact) no wonder he’s failed with such poor support"

It's a pretty specific piece of information and forms a major part of your criticism of our development coaches. I just haven't been able to find where you found reference of the "chat" so just am asking where you found that.

I re-read the article and there is no mention of it I am guessing that I’ve muddled it up with Aish.

I’m also not on the same page that it forms a “major part” of my criticism of player development on the whole. In fact it forms a very minor part of it sort of like a guard being killed off in GOT. My assumption would be that if it were a major part someone would have picked up on the hole in my thinking prior to you given you’ve been present since it was originally posted (based on your like of Cleomenes post at 10 am).

I’d also have personally thought if it were that important you’d have pointed this out sooner...

 

[Darkyprotector]

There are a number of factors that have made Siers development unusual as other have alluded to, such as his age, pathway to the AFL, personal circumstances, and litany of injuries over the period.
There have also been reports that because of the above he took a while to "fit in".

Given that he was NOT therefore a typical recruit but hugely talented, its is not surprising that he was cut more slack than normal.
So I see the circumstance above explaining these "development issues", and not necessarily our program.

Remembering that many here have bagged the cooky cutter approach where ALL personalities/players are treated the same, I think the treatment of Sier may well suggest otherwise.
Ultimately he was "saved" and I think that's the story.

So I would not use Sier as an example of a poor development program - for me Aish, Broomhead, Crocker are better examples.

+1

 

[sr36]

You’ve managed to confuse me now. My complaints are limited to player development and from that I’ve raised a number of questions to illicit discussion around how we can be better with a central focal point of why it took 18 months for the adjustment to take place.

Perhaps you’re focusing too intensely on Sier, the article and how he fits in with the context of my line of questions and discussion points? My own thought process is evolving with the discussion so I can’t really assist much further in guiding your understanding...

I agree with both you and GC. Our player development has appeared to be very lacking for a few years now, but that paragraph about Sier's attitude taking 18 months to turn around, wasn't your strongest, most logical work.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Honestly many great points have been made here by everyone. Based on the lists of ‘developed or not’ players, and general opinion I’d venture to say that our development is definitely neither the worst, and nor is it very good. In fact I think it probably reflects our ladder positions over the recent years.

What I do think has been missed slightly in this discussion however is that the players lacking development seem to have been absolved of guilt. In reality they’re the ones who have the most control over their professionalism. So if we’re to give Sier any credit at all for turning things around, he should be damned for failing to do so earlier. But then I’ve never seen the point in holding overly negative opinions about our players, I save that for Carlton.

Very fair points.

I’m very strong that ultimately it’s on the player. Do they want it enough?
Do they take responsibility before it’s all over?
Do they get the most out of themselves?

Though to get to there the Club and the FD must do all they can to cajole and persuade and support and motivate and push... all those things.

But at the end it’s really simple, get the ball. Do good things with it.

Very interesting discussion.

 

[sr36]

So I would not use Sier as an example of a poor development program - for me Aish, Broomhead, Crocker are better examples.

Agree with much of that, but poor bloody Crocker. Year 1 showed promise. Year 2 lost to injuries. End of Year 2, written off by all. Not suggesting that you are writing him off NoSpin. Just commenting on general sentiment.

 

[jackcass]

I’m not as keen on your list overall.
I think the bottom of list types were likely not going to make it, or were at the tail end of their careers.
Ramsay is correct, and Marsh probably is a different circumstance.

A list of Broomhead, Aish, Ramsay (as listed), Crocker, Sier, Wills, Fasolo even, maybe we’ll say De Goey at some point, Thomas, Keeffe, Oxley would be the more compelling case for “is it development”

I still think this area’s biggest concern for me, and has been for ages, is the older types that seem to fall away around 30.

I'd question Ramsay's inclusion. Had an interrupted 1st when he broke his wrist in debut VFL game. Came on through the VFL in 2014 and forced his way into the team for the last few and showed a bit. Was looking the goods in 2015 until struck down with the shin issue. In 2016 he again looked set to cement a spot in the senior side when he did his knee. Not sure he was ever the same player after the knee but I would have liked to see him given another year to see if he could recapture some of that early form. Appleby must have shown a bit if as suggested he's taken his rookie spot.

 

[Darkyprotector]

How much of a role do you think motivation plays in the development process?

Dr Rudi webster involved in north and richmonds 70 s& 80s success
Physc

 

[Scodog10]

Buckley QA from last night........check Bucks Thread

I can certainly see why GC asked the question even if I disagree with the relevancy of it. In this case though it was oversight on my behalf!

 

[CFC2010]

I can certainly see why GC asked the question even if I disagree with the relevancy of it. In this case though it was oversight on my behalf!

I thought Bucks said it in the QA maybe I need to re-watch it.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I'd question Ramsay's inclusion. Had an interrupted 1st when he broke his wrist in debut VFL game. Came on through the VFL in 2014 and forced his way into the team for the last few and showed a bit. Was looking the goods in 2015 until struck down with the shin issue. In 2016 he again looked set to cement a spot in the senior side when he did his knee. Not sure he was ever the same player after the knee but I would have liked to see him given another year to see if he could recapture some of that early form. Appleby must have shown a bit if as suggested he's taken his rookie spot.

Fair call.

Ramsay was one of those medium players or never elite A grade but not the worst by any stretch. A depth player.

So could development have made him that player that’s a certain 22?

 

[Maggie5]

I think Boyd was added in a development role as well.

Thanks for that I forgot.
Silly me expecting our website up to date.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Agree with much of that, but poor bloody Crocker. Year 1 showed promise. Year 2 lost to injuries. End of Year 2, written off by all. Not suggesting that you are writing him off NoSpin. Just commenting on general sentiment.

One thing that might give Crocker his chance, ongoing injuries or set backs to Elliott and Fasolo. Don’t want that but if it happens Crocker might be there to pounce?

Competition might still come from Daicos, Kirby and even a newbie.

He has that challenge.

(We do know he’s a character.)

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Thanks for that I forgot.
Silly me expecting our website up to date.

Very silly Maggie.

Update by maybe round 3 or 4.
Maybe

 

[Scodog10]

I think it plays a significant role but I just want to gauge if anyone brings any expertise on anything development related to a discussion about development. Happy to broaden it to include anyone currently working or has worked in a development role.

This is where we differ. Motivation plays a role in development no doubt, but no more so than skill acquisition, teaching or leadership.

Even then a lot of what I’m discussing isn’t relevant to what people that deal specifically in the motivational space work with people on. Much of my direction, not all, in this thread is around the process and improvements in that space. You aren’t exactly getting Tony Robbins in to present on the discussion I raised re Adams and what could be done from within the playing group.

Using a practical example Maxwell has been employed in a leadership capacity and whilst I would say he has the skills to develop an individuals leadership, and in turn assist their general development, I’m not so sure he’s as equipped to speak on motivation? Does that therefore negate his appointment if motivation plays a significant role in development?

I’m not buying what you’re selling on that front personally. That’s not to discourage those from that space commenting more that I’m not sure it warrants the emphasis you’ve given it.

 

[MagpieJoel]

Player Develpoment under Bucks has Been Disgusting hardly any players really have come on the Bucks Regime

That's crap Dave...off the top of my head.

* Adams.
* Grundy.
* Elliot.
* Dunn.
* Phillips.
* Crisp.
* Maynard.
* Cox.
* Howe.

 

[sr36]

I can certainly see why GC asked the question even if I disagree with the relevancy of it. In this case though it was oversight on my behalf!

I agree with your concerns about development, but come on Sco, it was the premise of your opening post:

This is how I read your post.

Paragraph 1 - Sier's article suggests a major issue with player development.
Paragraph 2 - The article suggests that the development guys did stuff all, as all it took was a chat with Bucks to turn him around.
Paragraph 3 - The same is probably happening with other blokes.
Paragraph 4 - Our development sucks.

I agree with Paragraph 4, but I wouldn't necessarily be pointing the finger at our development coaching. I'd link it with the ridiculously long form slumps that players have had. I reckon both our lack of development and form slumps stem from an attempted move to a culture of continual self-evaluation and self-criticism, designed to become a continual striving for excellence - an approach that worked fabulously for Buckley himself as a player and someone like Pendlebury, but an approach that doesn't work for all. Players have lost confidence and the growing culture of self - criticism has resulted in them struggling to gain or re-gain their confidence. There hasn't been enough tyre pumping going on and thus those who need to feel like their shithot in order to get the best out of themselves, haven't progressed.

 

[frizzle]

Just out of interest, who on here actually works in the motivational sphere?

I do. I'd like to tell everyone all about it, but I just can't be stuffed.