Opinion Player trades / 'go home' factor - when does a player have a right to nominate a club or not?

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Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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The draft is almost useless as an equalisation tool. GWS a great example. Plenty of high picks, pretty well used and pretty well developed, a best 22 of all players GWS have drafted would be unbeatable - but the salary cap stops them from keeping all players and as such they are a good team, a shot at the flag at the start of each year, but far from unbeatable.
GWS/GC only got stacks of high picks because they were new entities.

Without the draft why would Coniglio, Greene, Kelly, Whitfield, Cameron etc. choose to join GWS as 17/18 year olds?

Without the draft how do Gold Coast get better? They need a King or Lukosious or Rankine to become a star and give them hope.

The AFL has a unique dynamic where players are drafted at 18 and finish their development after they are in the system, but players want freedom of movement before most are even established at AFL level.

There is also a unique dynamic where the competition (well, the people running it) insists on having teams in markets that are otherwise commercially unviable and don't produce players at the same rate. There's a bit of a parallel to the NHL where Canada has 7 teams out of 31 but produces nearly half the players - except every Canadian doesn't get homesick eh after two years and want to play for the Canucks.

The US is very different, though. Utah and Oregon are 1.1% and 1.8% black respectively and their NBA teams are predictably about 70-80% black. But I doubt any of the 30 players across those two rosters are actually from those states anyway. Brooklyn just signed two stars in Durant (from Virginia, college in Texas), LeBron left his hometown twice for shinier things, Anthony Davis (from Chicago, college in Kentucky) wanted to play for the Lakers etc. Much more common here for players to move between states than for a star from one Melbourne team to join another.

I don't think the AFL offer sufficient carrots to clubs looking to retain players. NBA players do generally start at 20/21 instead of 18 but I like the 4 season free agency qualifier, and I like the guaranteed two year contract with two year option. I don't think 20 year olds that have done nothing in two years should be eligible for $500k+ deals. I also don't think that players should be able to sign $500k deals then request to be traded because someone comes along offering $800k. If you have two years left on a $500k deal that is what should be tradeable.

Whatever system you have in place Tim Kelly is always going to be a square peg because players are rarely drafted at 23 and those that are rarely just turn into very good players overnight. Perhaps free agency should expanded to something like whatever comes first out of playing 8 seasons and turning 26/27, or including years when you nominated for a draft but were passed over. Technically Kelly has been in and around the AFL system since 2012 but no one wanted him in the 2012-2016 drafts. Seems a bit silly that he can only be eligible for FA status at age 31 but those are the rules.
 

Kwality

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Whatley, Riewoldt and Murphy think an out of contract Tim Kelly should be forced to go to Freo if it gets Geelong higher picks - with Nick Riewoldt being the stronger advocate of it out of the 3.

Do you think Nick Riewoldt would think the same would apply with St Kilda's approach to Brad Hill (or any other Victorian 'go home' scenario)?
Surely according to this logic Freo should be free to shop a contracted Brad around to the highest bidder in Victoria (I don't agree)?

I'm interested to hear Where and When do you think players should be able to nominate a club or not?

Tim Kelly is the only player I think I have heard the national media make these sort of suggestions on to this extent where the player shouldn't be able to nominate.
I am guessing this is because some feel the burden of proof is stronger on him to prove the genuineness of his need (special needs children) - although actual genuine need being the reason a player can't nominate as opposed to non-need giving a player greater rights is a pretty shaky proposition...

What scenarios have merit and which don't - topic doesn't necessarily have to be about Tim Kelly, can apply to Shiel, Hill or whatever scenario.
Go back to how we got to where we are today then you will better appreciate IF we need to address anything - that the noise is coming from some notorious mouths ...
 

Goomba1973

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Any and every player has the right to nominate who their preferred club to be traded to is. Getting the deal done is another matter entirely.

With Kelly for example - Would you as a club go hard after a guy that has nominated your cross town rival as his preference?
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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Any and every player has the right to nominate who their preferred club to be traded to is. Getting the deal done is another matter entirely.

With Kelly for example - Would you as a club go hard after a guy that has nominated your cross town rival as his preference?
Depends what is said behind closed doors. Elliot Yeo was a Fremantle fan as a kid, so was fat McGovern as his dad played there. Means nothing now. Graham Cornes loathes Port Adelaide and both his sons are club legends there.

The rumours about Kelly and Freo have been about possible friction with the coach (gone) and Hill brothers (one wants out). Not going to give those air time but it is possible that the reason(s) for not wanting to join Freo last year may not be there this year.

Kelly is a professional. He is living in a city he doesn't want to live in on the opposite side of the country to his family and just made the AA side. Even if there was a McLeod/Edwards type relationship with a teammate I'm sure he could play good footy at Freo.

If I was Freo I probably wouldn't go all in, but mostly in. Wouldn't be burning pick 6 but pending other moves would be happy to use a pick 10-15+ should I have it. If he was in the PSD then no brainer take him.
 

marty36

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Depends what is said behind closed doors. Elliot Yeo was a Fremantle fan as a kid, so was fat McGovern as his dad played there. Means nothing now. Graham Cornes loathes Port Adelaide and both his sons are club legends there.

The rumours about Kelly and Freo have been about possible friction with the coach (gone) and Hill brothers (one wants out). Not going to give those air time but it is possible that the reason(s) for not wanting to join Freo last year may not be there this year.

Kelly is a professional. He is living in a city he doesn't want to live in on the opposite side of the country to his family and just made the AA side. Even if there was a McLeod/Edwards type relationship with a teammate I'm sure he could play good footy at Freo.

If I was Freo I probably wouldn't go all in, but mostly in. Wouldn't be burning pick 6 but pending other moves would be happy to use a pick 10-15+ should I have it. If he was in the PSD then no brainer take him.

The analogy of the Cornes boys is a good one, they hated Port as much as their dad before going there
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
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So what should the mechanism be in the case of the Kelly situation or equivalent?

- player out of contract, requests trade
- player agrees to terms with new club
- original club and new club can't come to agreement WRT trade
- third club enters the equation, satisfies original club but not player
- impasse ensues

Let's say WC offer Kelly $600k a year for 5 years and Geelong pick 14. Freo come along and match the contract terms and offer Geelong pick 6. Right now the only way Kelly is traded to Freo is if both he and Geelong sign off on it. Should Geelong be in a position to deal with Freo for their benefit assuming the contract particulars are matched? That's effectively the choice of destination club being up to the original club, not the player. I cannot see the AFLPA agreeing to that.

The alternative is as it is now. Freo offer a better deal, WC go away and think about coming up with something better themselves, Kelly weighs up his options, Geelong weigh up whether to accept a lesser trade or release him for nothing and it all goes around in circles until some final outcome is reached.

Working this forward the next homesick Victorian player gives the SA/WA/Qld/NSW clubs extra leverage than the reverse. Ed Langdon has been rumoured to want out of Freo, he's 23 and has been one of their better players this year. If he wants to go to Collingwood or Richmond should Freo be able to deal with St Kilda and Melbourne instead?
 

Big Papa Ted

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So what should the mechanism be in the case of the Kelly situation or equivalent?

- player out of contract, requests trade
- player agrees to terms with new club
- original club and new club can't come to agreement WRT trade
- third club enters the equation, satisfies original club but not player
- impasse ensues

Let's say WC offer Kelly $600k a year for 5 years and Geelong pick 14. Freo come along and match the contract terms and offer Geelong pick 6. Right now the only way Kelly is traded to Freo is if both he and Geelong sign off on it. Should Geelong be in a position to deal with Freo for their benefit assuming the contract particulars are matched? That's effectively the choice of destination club being up to the original club, not the player. I cannot see the AFLPA agreeing to that.

The alternative is as it is now. Freo offer a better deal, WC go away and think about coming up with something better themselves, Kelly weighs up his options, Geelong weigh up whether to accept a lesser trade or release him for nothing and it all goes around in circles until some final outcome is reached.

Working this forward the next homesick Victorian player gives the SA/WA/Qld/NSW clubs extra leverage than the reverse. Ed Langdon has been rumoured to want out of Freo, he's 23 and has been one of their better players this year. If he wants to go to Collingwood or Richmond should Freo be able to deal with St Kilda and Melbourne instead?
If a player is out of contract, his old club has nothing to do with him signing for another team. They got no compensation or anything like that.
 

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kreglze

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If I could change the rules I would bring draftees in with a 2+2 rule through the draft. With 2 years guaranteed then the club can extend 2 years at their discretion. However, once you are OOC you are a free agent. You would also need to drop the salary floor down considerably and I would get rid of the FA compensation as well. As well as any player coming into the AFL has to go to through the draft for that reason.
 

citizen-erased

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If King was to move this year or next, I would support a move to free agency after 5 years if the AFL also banned players moving in the first 5 as well
 

marty36

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If I could change the rules I would bring draftees in with a 2+2 rule through the draft. With 2 years guaranteed then the club can extend 2 years at their discretion. However, once you are OOC you are a free agent. You would also need to drop the salary floor down considerably and I would get rid of the FA compensation as well. As well as any player coming into the AFL has to go to through the draft for that reason.
This is the problem it's not the older players that should be getting choice of where they play

Its the younger players who are in more need of their family and friends at 18 years of age just coming out of high school

The issue is it will disadvantage NSW and QLD doing that

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icrow32

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Whatley, Riewoldt and Murphy think an out of contract Tim Kelly should be forced to go to Freo if it gets Geelong higher picks - with Nick Riewoldt being the stronger advocate of it out of the 3.

Do you think Nick Riewoldt would think the same would apply with St Kilda's approach to Brad Hill (or any other Victorian 'go home' scenario)?
Surely according to this logic Freo should be free to shop a contracted Brad around to the highest bidder in Victoria (I don't agree)?

I'm interested to hear Where and When do you think players should be able to nominate a club or not?

Tim Kelly is the only player I think I have heard the national media make these sort of suggestions on to this extent where the player shouldn't be able to nominate.
I am guessing this is because some feel the burden of proof is stronger on him to prove the genuineness of his need (special needs children) - although actual genuine need being the reason a player can't nominate as opposed to non-need giving a player greater rights is a pretty shaky proposition...

What scenarios have merit and which don't - topic doesn't necessarily have to be about Tim Kelly, can apply to Shiel, Hill or whatever scenario.[/

Imagine the uproar in Victoria if Adelaide had made Dangerfield go to the highest bidder in Victoria rather than allowing the trade to Geelong so he could go home and live next door to his parents.
 

Obeanie1

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Well Martin has nominated Carlton.

Wonder if Riewaldt will comment on that?

And if the King at Gold Coast nominates the Saints to play with his bro?

I think we all know the answer already!:think:;)
 

Big Papa Ted

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So what rules are you changing?
Increase initial contract length. The team that picks you up in the draft has you for 5 years. This means most players are eligible to move onto other clubs at 22-24.

Club compensation is removed, if a player becomes a free agent, they can go where they want and their club has no say in the matter.

Players under contract can be traded as the club requires etc, but as soon as they're out of contract their old club has in input as to where they go, nor do they get anything from it.

Essentially the NBA model with a longer rookie contract.
 

Kwality

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This is the problem it's not the older players that should be getting choice of where they play

Its the younger players who are in more need of their family and friends at 18 years of age just coming out of high school

The issue is it will disadvantage NSW and QLD doing that

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Its why the old academy rules for NSW & Q should still stand - weak AFL bowing to the stronger louder Melbourne clubs bleating.
 

marty36

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Its why the old academy rules for NSW & Q should still stand - weak AFL bowing to the stronger louder Melbourne clubs bleating.
It should apply to the whole of Australia unfortunately most of the youth comes out of Victoria so the Melbourne clubs will be fine

But if the AFL are concerned about player welfare 18 year olds should be allowed to make the choice to live with their family which is far mire important than a 25 year old the right of choice

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Sttew

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What if one of the WA clubs is willing to offer Kelly more allowance in terms of time to spend with his kids, etc? Is that a justifiable reason to nominate them if that's the reason he wants to go back home?
Is that what WCE has offered? I doubt it. The problem with Tim Kelly is that his manager first declared Tim had to get back to W.A. to be close to the family. Then he announced, “Oh yeah, and Tim will only go to WCE”.

It is very naive and arrogant of WCE supporters - some at least - to believe Geelong should cave in and allow Tim to go to WCE even if the WCE offer is sub par
 

General Giant

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Is that what WCE has offered? I doubt it. The problem with Tim Kelly is that his manager first declared Tim had to get back to W.A. to be close to the family. Then he announced, “Oh yeah, and Tim will only go to WCE”.

It is very naive and arrogant of WCE supporters - some at least - to believe Geelong should cave in and allow Tim to go to WCE even if the WCE offer is sub par
Why not? The Victorian clubs do it all the time to the northern clubs. The "I'm homesick but will only play for the Pies, or Geelong, or Richmond" etc etc.

In enjoyong it happening in reverse to be honest.
 

Numero Uno

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Vic hypocrisy and double standards are just next level..always have been

haven't you heard, WC joined their competition !!
Non bias and integrity is not required from any ignorant half wit Victorian like Riewoldt
 

Gysberts2Bate

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Why not? The Victorian clubs do it all the time to the northern clubs. The "I'm homesick but will only play for the Pies, or Geelong, or Richmond" etc etc.

In enjoyong it happening in reverse to be honest.
Geelong don’t really count as an evil Victorian club. If someone wants to go live in Geelong and pump money into that economy we should all applaud them IMO
 

LordLucifer

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Increase initial contract length. The team that picks you up in the draft has you for 5 years. This means most players are eligible to move onto other clubs at 22-24.

Club compensation is removed, if a player becomes a free agent, they can go where they want and their club has no say in the matter.

Players under contract can be traded as the club requires etc, but as soon as they're out of contract their old club has in input as to where they go, nor do they get anything from it.

Essentially the NBA model with a longer rookie contract.
I agree with most of this, the sticking point being the 5-years for the new draftees.

The downside to that plan is that if you pick up a player at say #80 and he is speculative at best, then you are committed to him for way longer than may be needed.

A staggered contract length like this may be more equitable :

1st Round Draftee - 5-years
2nd Round Draftee - 4-years
3rd Round Draftee - 3-years
4th Round Draftee - 2-years
5th Round Draftee - 1-year
 

General Giant

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Geelong don’t really count as an evil Victorian club. If someone wants to go live in Geelong and pump money into that economy we should all applaud them IMO
No club is evil in my mind, dogs are scum but they aren't evil really.

Disagree. Want to make it a home state request and not a club then it goes both ways.

Won't happen and nor should it. They are humans not cattle.
 

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