Research Players who served in War

[GreyCrow]

Just wondering how up to date the list is?

I have a candidate and I didnt see him in the tinyurl.

Ralph Upton 1 game for Geelong 1907 born in Adelaide enlisted in England and died in NSW.
Full name Ralph Eldridge Roebuck Upton ( Encyclopedia has these initials) 1 game against Sth Melbourne
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article147632998 'cousin of roebuck' Roebuck is Les Roebuck who played 35 games for Geelong. (Family connection)

Here is the list of RER Upton service
http://ww1scvstories.com.au/pdf/UPTON, Ralph Eldridge Roebuck.pdf

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Just wondering how up to date the list is?

I have a candidate and I didnt see him in the tinyurl.

Ralph Upton 1 game for Geelong 1907 born in Adelaide enlisted in England and died in NSW.
Full name Ralph Eldridge Roebuck Upton ( Encyclopedia has these initials) 1 game against Sth Melbourne
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article147632998 'cousin of roebuck' Roebuck is Les Roebuck who played 35 games for Geelong. (Family connection)

Here is the list of RER Upton service
http://ww1scvstories.com.au/pdf/UPTON, Ralph Eldridge Roebuck.pdf

Seems like a new one - he's not named in Harder Than Football or listed on the War Memorial in Kardinia Park.
I've added his war service into wikidata so he should appear in the query now

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The Lionel Smale (http://demonwiki.org/Lionel+Smale) who played two games for Melbourne in 1904 was the same Basil Lionel Smale from the Boer War (https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/165879). Address on the enlistment record in Elsternwick ties in to him being recruited from Caulfield and the age lines up. There is a chance he may have enlisted given the five months between signing up and the conflict ending.

This would make him the second confirmed MFC player I've found who served in that war (after 1897 one gamer Jack Godby).

His Wikipedia has a link to a story about Basil Smale dying in a bike vs car accident in Perth in 1934, which lines up to his historically accepted DOD but as we have discovered on this board they are not always kosher.

I think there are at least 5 MFC players who served in the Second Boer War.
In addition to Jack Godby & Lionel Smale I have Jim Conquest, Hugh Purse and Jack McIntosh (all listed in Harder Than Football)

 

[Supermercado]

I think there are at least 5 MFC players who served in the Second Boer War.
In addition to Jack Godby & Lionel Smale I have Jim Conquest, Hugh Purse and Jack McIntosh (all listed in Harder Than Football)

Thanks for this, I will update accordingly.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Stumbled across one more: Peter McCracken (St Kilda) moved to NZ and enlisted in July 1918 - see war record

 

[rbartlett]

Need some assistance.
This article indicates that 18yr old Frank Slater just completed his military training. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23240189
Slater played for Richmond from 1953-55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Slater

I'm guessing this is National Service Training ? Is there a site that lists National Service men? I don't think Slater appears in 'Harder Than Football' section of National Service.

 

[GreyCrow]

Need some assistance.
This article indicates that 18yr old Frank Slater just completed his military training. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23240189
Slater played for Richmond from 1953-55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Slater

I'm guessing this is National Service Training ? Is there a site that lists National Service men? I don't think Slater appears in 'Harder Than Football' section of National Service.

http://nashonomroll.org/f_nominalroll2.asp

 

[rbartlett]

http://nashonomroll.org/f_nominalroll2.asp

Thanks Grey. But this throw a spanner in the works. I search for Slater, and there's no Frank Slater.
What other Military Service would he be doing in 1953 at age 18 I wonder
(I think I interviewed him years ago, so I might have to get out the cassette tape to see if he talked about it)

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks Grey. But this throw a spanner in the works. I search for Slater, and there's no Frank Slater.
What other Military Service would he be doing in 1953 at age 18 I wonder
(I think I interviewed him years ago, so I might have to get out the cassette tape to see if he talked about it)

He's Colin 'Frank' Slater according to The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.

 

[GreyCrow]

He's Colin 'Frank' Slater according to The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.

There is a Colin John From Queensland born 1937

 

[35Daicos]

There is a Colin John From Queensland born 1937

Yes, I did see that. The Richmond player was supposed to have been born in 1934, and that newspaper article said he was 18 in 1953 (he should actually have been 19 by that stage). So it's very unlikely to be him.

 

[the croucher]

Thanks Grey. But this throw a spanner in the works. I search for Slater, and there's no Frank Slater.
What other Military Service would he be doing in 1953 at age 18 I wonder
(I think I interviewed him years ago, so I might have to get out the cassette tape to see if he talked about it)

Note for all: the National Svce Nom Roll only includes those names who have been personally nominated for inclusion - it is not the full "catch-all from records" that the World War Two roll has turned out to be. So I'm not really surprised that Slater hasn't been found on it.
see: http://nashonomroll.org/roll_app.html

 

[GreyCrow]

Note for all: the National Svce Nom Roll only includes those names who have been personally nominated for inclusion - it is not the full "catch-all from records" that the World War Two roll has turned out to be. So I'm not really surprised that Slater hasn't been found on it.
see: http://nashonomroll.org/roll_app.html

It is only YOU who can add your name to this ROLL. By completing this form and sending it together with $5 to the address below, we will add your entry to this auspicious NOMINAL ROLL.

I find that to be at odds with my experience

I attended a funeral a few months ago and while I knew my dad was a Nasho it wasnt until his mates funeral that I found out I could get his service medal. I looked online and there he is

From my understanding he never applied nor did he speak much of it ( apart from the lifelong mate and fun)

I did notice though that not many Victorians (if any) are on the list

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Charlie MacKay (Melb 1905-06) served in UK Army in WWI
"Upon the outbreak of World War I, he joined the Royal Army Medical Corps in England. As lieutenant-colonel, he commanded the No 80 General Hospital in Salonika in 1918"

Supermercado - you may want to add this to Demonwiki
He was a noted medical practitioner later in life - entries in Whos Who etc...
Ref in Encyclopedia of Australian Science

 

[Supermercado]

Charlie MacKay (Melb 1905-06) served in UK Army in WWI
"Upon the outbreak of World War I, he joined the Royal Army Medical Corps in England. As lieutenant-colonel, he commanded the No 80 General Hospital in Salonika in 1918"

Supermercado - you may want to add this to Demonwiki
He was a noted medical practitioner later in life - entries in Whos Who etc...
Ref in Encyclopedia of Australian Science

Thanks for this. I see the birthdates slightly differ between the two - obviously the same bloke but wonder which is right.

 

[the croucher]

Thanks for this. I see the birthdates slightly differ between the two - obviously the same bloke but wonder which is right.

I think 3 May is correct. Here is a birth notice for a son born to Mrs D Mackay at Woods Point, Vic and published on the 5th May:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5981889

The official register entry at Vic BDMs for Charles Vincent MacKay notes his father's name as Donald and mother's maiden name as Vincent.
12618 / 1880
The registered place of birth is shown as Woodspoint.

 

[35Daicos]

I think 3 May is correct. Here is a birth notice for a son born to Mrs D Mackay at Woods Point, Vic and published on the 5th May:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5981889

The official register entry at Vic BDMs for Charles Vincent MacKay notes his father's name as Donald and mother's maiden name as Vincent.
12618 / 1880
The registered place of birth is shown as Woodspoint.

It looks like most sources have that wrong, then. AFL Tables, AustralianFootball.com, Wikipedia and The Encyclopedia all have 5 May 1880. The AFL Historical Statistics site also had 5 May 1880.

 

[rbartlett]

Hi.
I'm going to dump all the outstanding Richmond War queries in this post.
For those unaware I am keeping a list of all Richmond players/officials (from Snrs.Reserves.U19.Fourths.trained) who enlisted in war.

Below are the ones I can't quite resolved either as a yes or a no. A second set of eyes may help. Any assistance is welcomed.

1. John Wright, VFA player, listed as 'leaving the permanent artillery and intended to go home to St James' in July 1901 Minute Book. We have him as
b: 4 May 1878d: 11 June 1968, aged 90, later playing with Geelong in 1902-1906

What war was he ? War record?


2. [http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page8503735|This article ]reference a long time supporter and worker of Richmond Football Club Frank Goldin at war. Yet to find his connection with Richmond. Did he perhaps play junior football in the Richmond district?
I'm starting to think Goldin's connection is no necessarily with Richmond club itself, but Richmond area.
Unless I find him donating some $$, or working at the club I think I'll keep him off the list.
So at the moment I'll strike his name.

3. Tigers of Old book page 305 lists a M Wheeler as player who died in World War 2.
Yet to find any connection to Richmond. However, Max Wheeler, who played 1 game for Hawthorn in 1937, died in 1941 (yet to find his connection, if any, to Richmond). I'm suspecting this is an error in the Tigers of Old book. Am closing this unless other evidence surfaces

4. Francis Xavier Martin - grandson says he played in RFC reserves and served in war.
V356468 is probably him. Francis Xavier Martin, born 19 May 1921 in Richmond (next of kin Patrick Martin). Grandson says thats him. However , I can't locate when he played for Richmond in Reserves yet. Francis is still alive, grandson to follow up. (Update: Francis passed away in July 2016) Update: There's a Martin (AIF) listed h[http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178108911|ere in Pre-Season of 1946] , is that perhaps him? It couldn't be Des Martin, cause he left Richmond at end of 1942 and was coaching Berrigan at this stage. I'm leaning towards including him unless other research says otherwise.

5. Jim Petrie
1941 Reserves Annual Report says 'rejoined this Committee this year, was transferred to Darwin, and no time will be lost in signing him up again when he return, as Jim was a great worker for the Club' Is it James Henderson Petrie Vt74843 born Horsham 9 Sep 1915? I'm yet to make a connection.

6. Jack Keenan -1939 Annual Report says 'ex Cub on holidays from New Guinea, paid us visit during the season'
1936 article says he is a[http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204911343| young player ] and this one says he was from [http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11027207| was Diamond Creek ]. Played [http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11896243|1936 Reserves ]
Just need to connect that Jack with a war Jack
Is it Jack Kennan VX18646 b 10 Aug 1919, Lillydale? No its not. He was John Robert Keenan, Coastwatcher for Royal Aust. Navy


7. Did an 'Andrews', RFC reserves player serve in WW2. This Sporting Globe article talks about an Army Football Match.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article188830760

8. May 25 1943 seniors minute book says "New Players: ..... A Pierce RAAF side. "
Who is that?

9. 20 June 1944 Seniors Minute Book: "Flight Lieut Andrews : Forwarding London Paper with photo published of Mr E Saunders".
Is E. Saunders , our longtime head trainer Ernie Saunders. And if so, did Ernie serve in War, or is the newspaper photo simply not related to War.
If not Ernie Saunders, then who is this E. Saunders.

And, is Lieut Andrews a player/official. - and any connection to the 'Andrews' above.

10. Dec 7 1943 seniors Minute Book : "Les Anderson (451 Fighter Squadron) Conveying Xmas Greetings."
Who is that? Does he have any connection to the club, or is he just a supporter sending greetings.

11. 20 June 1944 Seniors Minute Book " Mr F Galwey: Re:Likely players LAC Lawlor and LAC Kay"
Did either of these men get signed by Richmond or at least train. We know LAC = Leading Aircraftsman


12. Did Bert Boromeo's son Bill (Richmond Fourths coach in early 60s) serve in War? [http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206111385|This article] suggest a son called W Boromeo was in RAAF. A search on WW2 records brings up several Boromeos, but no Bill or William

13. 1918 Annual Report lists J Coles as enlisted. Jack Coles played for Richmond 1909 , 3 games and is listed as a serviceman. But I can't find which Service Record is his.

14. 1918 Annual Report lists M Cronin as enlisted. (Is is Maurice Anthony Cronin, that Richmond+Burnley Society have listed. There is an M Cronin as vice president in 1915-1917. Is this war guy too young. He enlisted when 22? Possibly his father was VP of the club, while the son was the soldier. Therefore does this Richmond Annual Report list also include relatives of current committeeman, is that why he is on the list ?
Research further down indicates Maurice Snr was the VP, but the son went to war. Cant find a connection with Maurice Anthiny Cronin (the son) with RFC so closing. Will reopening if evidence suggests otherwise.

15. 1918 Annual Report lists J French as enlisted. (R + BS don't list him What role did he have for Richmond)

16. 1918 Annual Report lists G Hogan as enlisted. (R + BS don't list a G Hogan. What role did he have for Richmond)

17. 1918 Annual Report lists J White as enlisted. John White played Richmond in 1910, 2 games. Is this him. Where is his service record ?

18. 1918 Annual Report lists J McNair as enlisted/ killed (R+BS has possible James McNair from Burnley State School)
But what role did he have with Richmond. This is an important one as he may be a new death entry into our list. Brother of Archie McNair RFC Life Member. No physical connection with RFC .

19. 1918 Annual Report lists W McKeone as enlisted (R+BS has William McKeone, 24th Battalion 6857A. But what role did he have with Richmond ? Oh, [http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93810539|he played for Beverley, local juniors in Richmond]. ) [https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...ports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1950891&isAv=N| Service Record]
I'm deciding whether to put him on the list. Beverley was a nursery team for the club, and several players came from there to the club.
As much as I liked to, if McKeone hasnt at least trained with Richmond I can't put him on this list.

20. 1918 Annual Reports lists A Whitaker as enlisted. (There's a A Whittaker on General Committee 1911)
(R+BS has an Albert Walter Whitaker , enlisted 44ys 9 mtgs as a bombardier. Discharged 1918 as medically unfit. Richmond Guardian 27 Oct 1917 pg 2 says 'Nip' was one of the Richmond Football Club's best enthusiasts' He wrote a letter to his brother Herb Whitaker , age 30, that is published in the paper. ) So I need to find if Herb Whitaker and Albert Walter Whitaker are brothers Yep all related. Added

21. 1918 Annual Reports lists C Williams as enlisted. Who is that? Is it Charlie Williams our VFA and VFL player?


22. 1918 Annual Reports lists T Collins as enlisted. Who is this for Richmond?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

14. 1918 Annual Report lists M Cronin as enlisted. (Is is Maurice Anthony Cronin, that Richmond+Burnley Society have listed. There is an M Cronin as vice president in 1915-1917. Is this war guy too young. He enlisted when 22? Possibly his father was VP of the club, while the son was the soldier. Therefore does this Richmond Annual Report list also include relatives of current committeeman, is that why he is on the list ?

Would John Carr know about this particular Cronin?

 

[GreyCrow]

Hi.
I'm going to dump all the outstanding Richmond War queries in this post.
For those unaware I am keeping a list of all Richmond players/officials (from Snrs.Reserves.U19.Fourths.trained) who enlisted in war.

Below are the ones I can't quite resolved either as a yes or a no. A second set of eyes may help. Any assistance is welcomed.

1. John Wright, VFA player, listed as 'leaving the permanent artillery and intended to go home to St James' in July 1901 Minute Book. We have him as
b: 4 May 1878d: 11 June 1968, aged 90, later playing with Geelong in 1902-1906

What war was he ? War record?

?

John Christopher Wright? Boer War


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P10043264

 

[35Daicos]

Hi.
I'm going to dump all the outstanding Richmond War queries in this post.
For those unaware I am keeping a list of all Richmond players/officials (from Snrs.Reserves.U19.Fourths.trained) who enlisted in war.

Below are the ones I can't quite resolved either as a yes or a no. A second set of eyes may help. Any assistance is welcomed.

1. John Wright, VFA player, listed as 'leaving the permanent artillery and intended to go home to St James' in July 1901 Minute Book. We have him as
b: 4 May 1878d: 11 June 1968, aged 90, later playing with Geelong in 1902-1906

What war was he ? War record?

John Christopher Wright? Boer War


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P10043264

John Thomas Wright is the one we're after, apparently. I'm tipping it's this chap:

He has his DOB as 4 May 1882 (precisely 4 years later than his official DOB). He gives his height as 5 ft 11 3/4 inches - AFL Tables has the Geelong player as 182 cm, so a perfect match there.

He also gives his occupation as soldier messenger (I think that's what it says, so that might fit as well).

 

[rbartlett]

Would John Carr know about this particular Cronin?

Yes I've spoken to John Carr about it. He believes the son was the soldier. Carr doesn't think the father went to war.
So I'm trying to determine if the M Cronin is the father (Snr), or the son who went to war.
I have a Maurice Cronin as a vice president at Richmond 1915-1917 (living at 125 Richmond Terrace). But is that the father or the son.

Edit: Carr told me : M.P.Cronin (Snr) was pres during the war while his son M.?.Cronin was at war.

Edit 2: Here's the Cronins that the Richmond Burnley Historical society have going to war



Edit 3: See I've always thought that M Cronin as Richmond VP was Maurice Patrick Cronin - the father. But Carr reckons it is his son who went to war. So if it is, my question is has the club published the son as going to War. Cause if so, that means some of these other names I posted may be relatives of players/officials , not players/officials themselves

 

[rbartlett]

John Thomas Wright is the one we're after, apparently. I'm tipping it's this chap:

He has his DOB as 4 May 1882 (precisely 4 years later than his official DOB). He gives his height as 5 ft 11 3/4 inches - AFL Tables has the Geelong player as 182 cm, so a perfect match there.

He also gives his occupation as soldier messenger (I think that's what it says, so that might fit as well).

Yep. That is him. So he served in WW1 then. I'll strike a line through him on my post and add him to my War list. Thanks

a) I don't think Barb Cullen has him as Geelong WW1 soldier in her Harder Than Football book.

b) In his War records it says under Have you served in any prev army, militia etc etc this entry. Anyone know what AGA means?, or Permanent Artillery

 

[35Daicos]

Yep. That is him. So he served in WW1 then. I'll strike a line through him on my post and add him to my War list. Thanks

a) I don't think Barb Cullen has him as Geelong WW1 soldier in her Harder Than Football book.

b) In his War records it says under Have you served in any prev army, militia etc etc this entry. Anyone know what AGA means?, or Permanent ArtilleryView attachment 659577View attachment 659575View attachment 659576

Probably this: Australian Garrison Artillery (AGA)

 

[35Daicos]

14. 1918 Annual Report lists M Cronin as enlisted. (Is is Maurice Anthony Cronin, that Richmond+Burnley Society have listed. There is an M Cronin as vice president in 1915-1917. Is this war guy too young. He enlisted when 22? Possibly his father was VP of the club, while the son was the soldier. Therefore does this Richmond Annual Report list also include relatives of current committeeman, is that why he is on the list ?

This is the birth reg. that matches for this chap:

So the father was also Maurice.