Playing List Overhaul

[Cap]

This is stupid. If a player is no good it is the coaches fault?

Maybe, just maybe the player isn't up to it.

It's ridiculous to single out single things like this a base a coaches ability on that one thing.

Especially as Craig was only an assistant at the time.

Don't you think that is all a bit simplistic? Ladhams has sublime kicking skills. Should Craig get the credit for that? Of course not.


****

good call

i think you will find behind closed doors craig wasnt happy with the way Gary coached to club, also gary style of coaching didnt give much freedom to the assistants - they were to be exactly that assistants

i know i sound like i've changed my tune but i am starting to like what i hear from Niel Craig and his future for the crows

 

[gundy]

This is stupid. If a player is no good it is the coaches fault?

Maybe, just maybe the player isn't up to it.

It's ridiculous to single out single things like this a base a coaches ability on that one thing.

Especially as Craig was only an assistant at the time.

Don't you think that is all a bit simplistic? Ladhams has sublime kicking skills. Should Craig get the credit for that? Of course not.


****

****, you misunderstood my post completely.

If what you suppose is true Craig either can't identify a players problem areas or he lacks initiative. Neither of those are attributes the AFC can afford to have in a senior coach.

I am not saying this IS true. I was simply pointing out a flaw in the previous posts argument.

Personally I subscribe to the view that Birdman is a great athelete but just doesn't have a high enough level of football smarts to be a stand out AFL player. Some things just can't be taught. The really great AFL players are instinctive..

Read this last paragraph again very slowly. Where am I saying that Burton's lack of football smarts is any ones fault, let alone the coaches fault?

 

[gundy]

good call

i think you will find behind closed doors craig wasnt happy with the way Gary coached to club, also gary style of coaching didnt give much freedom to the assistants - they were to be exactly that assistants

i know i sound like i've changed my tune but i am starting to like what i hear from Niel Craig and his future for the crows

Well it's sort of a good call. I believe **** misunderstood the point I was making but I'm a happy little vegimite now that we all agree that it is not Neil's fault

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

good call

i think you will find behind closed doors craig wasnt happy with the way Gary coached to club, also gary style of coaching didnt give much freedom to the assistants - they were to be exactly that assistants

i know i sound like i've changed my tune but i am starting to like what i hear from Niel Craig and his future for the crows

If Craig spent a few years under Ayres & was unhappy with the way things were done, why did he stick around? At the end of the day, the assistants should be putting in the preparation for their set of players to ensure that they are ready to perform on match day. This should include attempting to rectify major flaws in a players ability. I doubt Gary would have had an issue with Neil if he could fix Burton's decision making ability, Bode's hospital kicks, etc

 

[Cap]

If Craig spent a few years under Ayres & was unhappy with the way things were done, why did he stick around? At the end of the day, the assistants should be putting in the preparation for their set of players to ensure that they are ready to perform on match day. This should include attempting to rectify major flaws in a players ability. I doubt Gary would have had an issue with Neil if he could fix Burton's decision making ability, Bode's hospital kicks, etc

yeah i can agree with that but i suppose we dont know what went on in the coaching box and in the coaching meetings. maybe ideas put forward weren't accepted as Gary didnt see Burton as having those flaws.

also you may not be a ble to fix his decision making but cant you limit the decisions he can make - example being Craig could just say to burton that every time he gets the ball on the wings he should try and centre it to a player ? ( yes i know very simplistic but isnt that what burton needs)

and i suppose you can be unhappy with the way your boss does things but you can still enjoy your job

 

[Mong]

Yeah, but how do you teach decision making?

It's one thing to make good decisions at training under little pressure, but it's another in story come game time. Ayres was the coach. If he had issue with Burtons decision making then do something about it. Take him off the ground each time. Leave him in the SANFL insetad of bringing him straight back after weeks and weeks on the sidelines with injury. Be strict with him.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we think any skills coach can just take him aside at training fix the problem like that. You have to get players to make the correct decisions instinctively. Bad habits come back in pressure situations. It has to be taught in game situations.

I think this is just going out of the way to pick fault with Craig. Lets keep it in perspective. He wasn't the coach. It wasn't Craig who let Burton get away with poor decision game after game after game. It wasn't Craig who rewarded Burton by bringing him straight back and bypassing the SANFL after long stints away with injury. It wasn't Craig who continued to play Burton in the midfield despite him being more important to us in the foward lines (although we're yet to see any changes from Craig in this regard).


****

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Yeah, but how do you teach decision making?

It's one thing to make good decisions at training under little pressure, but it's another in story come game time. Ayres was the coach. If he had issue with Burtons decision making then do something about it. Take him off the ground each time. Leave him in the SANFL insetad of bringing him straight back after weeks and weeks on the sidelines with injury. Be strict with him.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we think any skills coach can just take him aside at training fix the problem like that. You have to get players to make the correct decisions instinctively. Bad habits come back in pressure situations. It has to be taught in game situations.

I think this is just going out of the way to pick fault with Craig. Lets keep it in perspective. He wasn't the coach. It wasn't Craig who let Burton get away with poor decision game after game after game. It wasn't Craig who rewarded Burton by bringing him straight back and bypassing the SANFL after long stints away with injury. It wasn't Craig who continued to play Burton in the midfield despite him being more important to us in the foward lines (although we're yet to see any changes from Craig in this regard).

I'm not going out of my way to pick on Craig, but to say it was all Ayre's fault & Craig had no responsibility as an assistant is all wrong. Craig was employed to work on the midfield group & make them better players. Some have obvious flaws & it is his responsibility to try & rectify them. To suggest otherwise is crazy, otherwise for what purpose have we enployed him?

On Burton, it's quite simple IMO. If he disposes of the ball with his 1st instict he is usually OK. His problem is when he runs with the ball & (attempts to) think(s) about what he is doing as that is usually when he stuffs up.

 

[Mong]

I'm not going out of my way to pick on Craig, but to say it was all Ayre's fault & Craig had no responsibility as an assistant is all wrong.

You are correct. Craig did have a responsibility. But why pick on this one issue and then come to the conclusion that Craig isn't a good coach (not talking about you necessarily Kane)? We have got no idea what work he has done with Burton or anyone else for that matter.

Craig was employed to work on the midfield group & make them better players.

Agreed. But he can't make them perfect. Has our midfield been good over the last 4 years? Yep. What's been our strength? Clearances from stoppages, inside 50's, acountability. These are things we've been good at. Does Craig get all the credit for this? No. Should he? Perhaps a little bit. Have I heard anyone credit him for this? No.

Some have obvious flaws & it is his responsibility to try & rectify them.

This takes time. He's only been coach a few weeks. Look at Blight with Matt Connell. Blight's as strong on discilpine as anyone. He never managed to get Connell to play like he wanted. This gets back to the point I am trying to make. It's not always as easy as that or as simplitic as to say Burton has faults, therefore Craig can't coach. An assistant coach probably has much less opportunity to mould a player to the way they want them than a senior coach.

To suggest otherwise is crazy, otherwise for what purpose have we enployed him?

To maximise their output. No coach can make players perfect if they haven't got the capability. Ayres was the senior coach. He set the agenda. Lets give it time and see if Craig can implement an improved system.


****

 

[Stiffy_18]

i think you'll find he taught birdman exactly what Gary wanted to be taught -
some people see birdman as having a lack of skills (which Gary may have) where Craig IMO) sees Birdman as have poor decision making skills which make his football skills look bad - does that make sense ?

Nail. Hammer. Head.

Spot on my friend. I don't think many of our kicks are crap kicks its just that its a poor decision. Burton has a good kick on him but his decision making is pretty poor. It can be fixed but I think it will require more than just one pre-season especially since we are talking about someone like Burton

 

[MaccasNeighbour]

Burton is the sort of player who when good, is brilliant....and when bad, well we all know.

The last couple of years we have seen less of the brilliant stuff and more of the bad. Is Burton becoming a worse player? I doubt it. More likely it's a reflection of the overall performance of the team, injuries and lack of confidence.

I find a lot of Crows supporters are pretty anxious to get on his back, he had a very good game the other day but the crowd still booed him 3 or 4 times when he coughed up the ball under pressure. I'm not innocent myself.

If Craig can improve his decision making and his consistency, then by this time next year we'll be talking about Burton as an "untouchable" player.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Burton is the sort of player who when good, is brilliant....and when bad, well we all know.

The last couple of years we have seen less of the brilliant stuff and more of the bad. Is Burton becoming a worse player? I doubt it. More likely it's a reflection of the overall performance of the team, injuries and lack of confidence.

I find a lot of Crows supporters are pretty anxious to get on his back, he had a very good game the other day but the crowd still booed him 3 or 4 times when he coughed up the ball under pressure. I'm not innocent myself.

If Craig can improve his decision making and his consistency, then by this time next year we'll be talking about Burton as an "untouchable" player.

Isn't that typical of footy supporters????? They are known for a lack of patience. I mean this time last year Birdman was BURNING. He was playing the best football of his career. He was regularly getting tagged yet he regularly had 30 possesion games and a couple of goals a game. Mich Malthouse had him in his AA side on the wing because truth be told Birdman was THE best wingman in the competition in the second half of last year.

I wouldn't mind trading Burton BUT I wouldn't be disappointed if we keep him. A year is a LONG time

 

[RooDog]

Isn't that typical of footy supporters????? They are known for a lack of patience. I mean this time last year Birdman was BURNING. He was playing the best football of his career. He was regularly getting tagged yet he regularly had 30 possesion games and a couple of goals a game. Mich Malthouse had him in his AA side on the wing because truth be told Birdman was THE best wingman in the competition in the second half of last year.

I wouldn't mind trading Burton BUT I wouldn't be disappointed if we keep him. A year is a LONG time

here here stiffy!

birdman is our only true wingman!

 

[Stiffy_18]

here here stiffy!

birdman is our only true wingman!

I actually thin he is of greater value as a FF but thats another issue

 

[tribey]

I actually thin he is of greater value as a FF but thats another issue

No, that's the issue

If I got a stonewall assurance from Neil Craig and the physios that Burton would play all 22 minor round games next year from FF, I'd slap a hunner on him to kick at least 60 goals.

 

[Mad Dog]

here here stiffy!

birdman is our only true wingman!

Burton played his best footy last year as the "get out" man coming out of defense on the fat side of the ground. His endurance enabled him to run up and down the ground all day long - receiving from a defender out wide - then creating the loose man on the way up the other side of the ground..He'd then run deeper into the forward line and try and take a mark. If we lost possession he'd then run back to be the "get out" man again. His disposal while never beeing great didn't seem to be as much of an issue as it is now. I know he's kicked lots of goals in the past as a perm forward - but I think his true value is as a winger - no-one can keep up with him.....Hopefully Sensei Neil can teach him much

 

[tribey]

I know he's kicked lots of goals in the past as a perm forward - but I think his true value is as a winger - no-one can keep up with him.....Hopefully Sensei Neil can teach him much

I disagree.

Burton's 20 touches a game from a wing/half-back (and what, 3, 4, clangers on average?) are worth just as much if not less as Reilly's, Begley's, Bode's and Doughty's contributions.

But how many men do we have who can win a match off their own boot in the forward lines and score over 50 goals in a season like Burton?

 

[Mong]

But how many men do we have who can win a match off their own boot in the forward lines and score over 50 goals in a season like Burton?

And it's not just a full forward either. Burton shows value at CHF too, although I concede it probably wouldn't work on a regular basis but rather as an alternative when things aren't going too well. As a pinch hitter.

Anyone remember our last game of the 03 season? A loss in the finals to Brisbane at the gabba. Struggling in the first half, Burton goes to CHF in the third quarter and gives us the spark and brings us right back into the game before it evetually blew out. But still, I thought Burton's performance that day would be remembered. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear so.


****

 

[tribey]

****, same goes for last year's debacle in Round 2 against the Saints when we were almost unbackable favourites...

Swamped in the first and second quarters, Burton goes forward, provides a target, we straighten up a lot more and although he only kicks one goal and almost snaps his leg in the process and has to go off, he gave us the impetus to fight back and almost win it.

 

[drakeyv2]

Anyone remember our last game of the 03 season? A loss in the finals to Brisbane at the gabba. Struggling in the first half, Burton goes to CHF in the third quarter and gives us the spark and brings us right back into the game before it evetually blew out. But still, I thought Burton's performance that day would be remembered. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear so.****

Good point ****. I spent a lot of time telling Port supporters (don't they just love him) that Burton was one of the few players to show a bit in that game, & that he had a fair bit of ticker in him (much to their disbelief).

Unfortunately he blots his copy book too often. Still you would keep him, especialy if he developes a left foot. Considering Perrie's right foot goal last week anything is possible.

 

[Stiffy_18]

dyertribe it looks like our "Burton to FF" fan club is gaining a lot of members lately

 

[Mong]

dyertribe it looks like our "Burton to FF" fan club is gaining a lot of members lately

I've been on it for years, since his 50 goal season. I just grew tired of mentioning it long ago.

I've never understood the thinking behind playing him in the midfield.

So what if he's got good endurance? He's got good phone answering skills too. Does that mean he should be moved to the AFC receptionist position.


****

 

[Mad Dog]

I've been on it for years, since his 50 goal season. I just grew tired of mentioning it long ago.

I've never understood the thinking behind playing him in the midfield.

So what if he's got good endurance? He's got good phone answering skills too. Does that mean he should be moved to the AFC receptionist position.


****

I think towards the end of his last stint at FF he started just trying to take hangers - and it was really detracting from the little system we had - If they can fix that - then fine

 

[naughty monkey]

I disagree.

Burton's 20 touches a game from a wing/half-back (and what, 3, 4, clangers on average?) are worth just as much if not less as Reilly's, Begley's, Bode's and Doughty's contributions.

really?

Begley and Bode's disposal is at least as bad as Burton's, imo. And they certainly won't cover the same territory he does (at a v.good pace too).
Reilly and Doughty know how to use it but Doughty doesn't get enough of it for a wingman.

I don't want to start the whole forward vs midfield arguement again but i don't see what Burton adds to the forward line without taking away from Welsh. If you think Burton is going to get 50+ how many are you expecting out of Welsh?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

His marking also needs to be worked on too, at the moment he tries to burst the ball when he is attempting to mark, softer hands and some tweaking with his kicking and we may just have a star foward again!

With respect, he's 28 and what you have now is "as good as it gets"

 

[WaynesWorld19]

dyertribe it looks like our "Burton to FF" fan club is gaining a lot of members lately

Count me out!

Craig made the comment last Saturday that coming out of the square a player has trouble identifying players at FF. But they do see big bodies, and it straightens the side up (hence why he played Biglands and why I'm keen on Krueger if he can come up)

A 6' bird legged forwrd, with a kicking leg I wouldn't put my house on, to play FF and win us a flag can't see it.

For a leading forwrd much prefer the Welsh / Jericho option.

Seems like because of Burtons poor midfield decisions, some want to hide him at FF - does that mean he will not make dumb decisions at FF