The Law Police

Snake_Baker

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You see those as analogous?
Seriously?

I totally support the use of police weapons when they are attacked by people armed with weapons.
We'd need more cops than citizens if we are going to restrain everyone with hugs.
Do you support the use of police citizens weapons when they are attacked by people armed with weapons?
 

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ShanDog

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Yes my use of the word "literally" was facetious but they do shoot dogs with impunity.

You are delusional if you think this cop will get any more than a paid vacation. The precedents are all there.
I don't think it's the shooting of the dog that is the issue at hand...
 

LFTWNG11

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There are precedents - one being safe use of firearms. I'd be extremely surprised if he wasn't fired at the very least.
I can't find the link to the video on youtube - it probably wasn't in the same state, but the video shows a similar incident from a few years back where an officer fatally shot a lady; he was "aiming" to shoot her dog that managed to get off its lead. He was never charged.

The fact the best you can hope for in a case of this cold-blooded killing is that he gets fired, says a lot about how much leeway these government gangsters get.
 

ShanDog

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The fact the best you can hope for in a case of this cold-blooded killing is that he gets fired, says a lot about how much leeway these government gangsters get.
Not the best - I'm saying I expect that to be the bare minimum. Whether the facts of the incident mean that a charge of manslaughter is appropriate and likely to be successful is another story, but I'm certain it's being looked at.
 

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LFTWNG11

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Not the best - I'm saying I expect that to be the bare minimum. Whether the facts of the incident mean that a charge of manslaughter is appropriate and likely to be successful is another story, but I'm certain it's being looked at.
The bare minimum = best case you can hope for; when it comes to U.S Police being held accountable. I am certain it is being looked at it as well, by other Police Officers who will determine proper procedure was followed. The precedents are there.
 

ShanDog

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The bare minimum = best case you can hope for; when it comes to U.S Police being held accountable. I am certain it is being looked at it as well, by other Police Officers who will determine proper procedure was followed. The precedents are there.
You keep mentioning precedents, but you're aware that cops are fired and criminally charged on a regular basis right? The article I just read about this incident mentions criminal investigation is underway. I get the cynicism, but it's way overstated IMO.
 

LFTWNG11

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You keep mentioning precedents, but you're aware that cops are fired and criminally charged on a regular basis right? The article I just read about this incident mentions criminal investigation is underway. I get the cynicism, but it's way overstated IMO.
With the amount of people Police kill and maim every year, of course the odd one will be fired and/or criminally charged when the Police have absolutely no choice but to do so (like that blonde Aussie woman and the black Police Officer).

The problem is not enough cynicism, not that its overstated. These government gangsters get away with murder at a rate of ~98%.
 

ShanDog

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With the amount of people Police kill and maim every year, of course the odd one will be fired and/or criminally charged when the Police have absolutely no choice but to do so (like that blonde Aussie woman and the black Police Officer).

The problem is not enough cynicism, not that its overstated. These government gangsters get away with murder at a rate of ~98%.
How do you know a killing is unlawful? Where are you getting your info and who's analysis of these situations are coming up with the conclusion that police are getting away with murder at the rates you're mentioning? Those are some extraordinary claims and you should provide extraordinary evidence to match.
 

LFTWNG11

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How do you know a killing is unlawful? Where are you getting your info and who's analysis of these situations are coming up with the conclusion that police are getting away with murder at the rates you're mentioning? Those are some extraordinary claims and you should provide extraordinary evidence to match.
The claims are not extraordinary. A simple google search will give the information you seek but because you're a Carlton supporter:

~30 officers had been convicted of murder/manslaughter in the 12 year period of this study (12,000 killings at the hand of Police in that period):
https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/18/us/police-involved-shooting-cases/index.html&httpsredir=1&article=1077&context=crim_just_pub

Of course our definitions of an unlawful killing may be the point of contention.
 

ShanDog

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The claims are not extraordinary. A simple google search will give the information you seek but because you're a Carlton supporter:

~30 officers had been convicted of murder/manslaughter in the 12 year period of this study (12,000 killings at the hand of Police in that period):
https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/18/us/police-involved-shooting-cases/index.html&httpsredir=1&article=1077&context=crim_just_pub

Of course our definitions of an unlawful killing may be the point of contention.
Unless I've missed it in the skim through, this information doesn't make any cases about whether police shooting were lawful or not. Your whole point is predicated on the shootings being unlawful.
 

Gethelred

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Unless I've missed it in the skim through, this information doesn't make any cases about whether police shooting were lawful or not. Your whole point is predicated on the shootings being unlawful.
Having also skimmed the study, I find it more concerning how comfortable American juries are with police killing citizens, really. An almost universal acquittal rate, and overturning 4/5 murder convictions on appeal?

I mean, that's a lot of dead people, killed 'legally' as far as the populace is concerned. It's certainly not something I'd be comfortable with here, but then their gun laws mean that police have to treat people as though they could be armed, and the population at large are more comfortable with authority altogether.
 

ShanDog

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Having also skimmed the study, I find it more concerning how comfortable American juries are with police killing citizens, really. An almost universal acquittal rate, and overturning 4/5 murder convictions on appeal?

I mean, that's a lot of dead people, killed 'legally' as far as the populace is concerned. It's certainly not something I'd be comfortable with here, but then their gun laws mean that police have to treat people as though they could be armed, and the population at large are more comfortable with authority altogether.
Yep, your last paragraph there is probably the crux of it - there are so many weapons in the USA that the threat to officers in a confrontation is much higher than anywhere else. It doesn't mean every second person has a gun - obviously that's not the case, but it's an increased threat. Add to that a series of drug epidemics, poor mental health services, gangs, etc, and you have a recipe for people being killed.

This is why bodycams should be federally mandated for all officers. It saves lives, protects both the police and the people they come into contact with, AND makes the act of policing more transparent and accountable. I imagine the cost would be offset by the reduced court costs that occur thanks to their presence.
 

Gethelred

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Yep, your last paragraph there is probably the crux of it - there are so many weapons in the USA that the threat to officers in a confrontation is much higher than anywhere else. It doesn't mean every second person has a gun - obviously that's not the case, but it's an increased threat. Add to that a series of drug epidemics, poor mental health services, gangs, etc, and you have a recipe for people being killed.

This is why bodycams should be federally mandated for all officers. It saves lives, protects both the police and the people they come into contact with, AND makes the act of policing more transparent and accountable. I imagine the cost would be offset by the reduced court costs that occur thanks to their presence.
Quite. The information in that study on bodycams is rather damning; that police planted guns on suspects, either deliberately or accidentally gave false accounts of arrests, etc. It's actually a bit of a surprise given the significant percentage of society that thinks we're all f’ed is rather quiet about this.
 

LFTWNG11

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Unless I've missed it in the skim through, this information doesn't make any cases about whether police shooting were lawful or not. Your whole point is predicated on the shootings being unlawful.
Did you read the last sentence of my post where I said our definitions of unlawful killings is probably the point on contention?

Just because something is lawful, doesn't make it right or just.
 

ShanDog

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Did you read the last sentence of my post where I said our definitions of unlawful killings is probably the point on contention?

Just because something is lawful, doesn't make it right or just.
Yes I read that but it's not really relevant to what you were claiming. You are saying police "get away" with killing civilians all the time, but that claim is predicated on the killings being unlawful, which isn't something you or I get to define at all.

If you want to have a discussion about the morals/ethics of what the law says is OK, that's an entirely different conversation.
 

LFTWNG11

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Yes I read that but it's not really relevant to what you were claiming. You are saying police "get away" with killing civilians all the time, but that claim is predicated on the killings being unlawful, which isn't something you or I get to define at all.

If you want to have a discussion about the morals/ethics of what the law says is OK, that's an entirely different conversation.
They do get away with killing civilians all the time.... because the law protects them. That is my point.
 

ShanDog

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They do get away with killing civilians all the time.... because the law protects them. That is my point.
Ok so what are your criticisms of the laws? To summarise them, after escalation of force where possible, police can use their firearms if there is imminent (appropriate) threat to them or those they are responsible for protecting.
 

LFTWNG11

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Ok so what are your criticisms of the laws? To summarise them, after escalation of force where possible, police can use their firearms if there is imminent (appropriate) threat to them or those they are responsible for protecting.
Mainly the "feared for my life" being a get out of jail free card even when there is video and eye witness testimony that demonstrates the victim was of little-to-no threat.
 
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