Play Nice Politics # 4 - The madness continues here.....

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MOD NOTICE

Abusing and/or trolling other posters in this thread will not be tolerated from this point on.

Debate away and continue to have strong opinions, but abusing posters ie calling them idiots/stupid etc or trolling posters by laugh liking their posts will not be tolerated going forward.

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[mistylake]

Conservatives in this thread complained about Labor's GFC stimulus package for ages. I like that the current Liberal party has obliterated that argument and made them all look like idiots.

I was voting labor during GFC and had voted liberal last election.
pretty easy to see both times the governments did the right thing stimulating the economy.
Labor opening the borders to people smugglers,did the wrong thing.
Liberals forsaking all Australians that got marooned , (partially because they were told to stay overseas if safe) abroad and refusing to devise a method to repatriate them. Once it became more difficult than envisioned to get home. Also the wrong thing.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I was voting labor during GFC and had voted liberal last election.
pretty easy to see both times the governments did the right thing stimulating the economy.
Labor opening the borders to people smugglers,did the wrong thing.
Liberals forsaking all Australians that got marooned , (partially because they were told to stay overseas if safe) abroad and refusing to devise a method to repatriate them. Once it became more difficult than envisioned to get home. Also the wrong thing.

I wasn't accusing you of being one of those people. Irrc you didn't post in here back then.

 

[Vader]

What the clown fails to then say is that if the coalition somehow has to take responsibility for the worst worldwide disaster to strike by a massive distance since world war 2 that they can take absolute credit for handling the health side of the pandemic better than almost every other country in the world in terms of limiting deaths and spread of the virus in the community

I give full credit to the Liberal State Govts for handling the health side of the pandemic - SA has done extremely well, TAS did well other than that one outbreak early (related to the Ruby Princess), NSW did OK but not as well as the others (massive fail early with Ruby Princess, followed by the Northern Beaches outbreak).

As far as the health aspect is concerned, it's all been led and executed by the states. Quarantine is a Federal Govt responsibility, yet the Federal LNP has steadfastly refused to take any responsibility for it whatsoever (they're even foisting Howard Springs onto the NT Govt now).

The one area the Federal LNP did take responsibility was organising the vaccination program, which has been a massive disaster. Firstly, they put all of their eggs in the AZ basket, rather than spreading the risk across multiple vaccines. Secondly, they failed to setup an adequate distribution program, and even had the gall to push back initially when the states suggested using mass vaccination centres (which were implemented in every country with a successful vaccination program).

... And then there's the India border closure fiasco.

The State Govts, with the notable exception of Dan Andrews' Victorian Govt, have come out of this pretty damn well, regardless of which party was in charge. The ALP premiers have done well, as have the LNP premiers. The Federal Govt has shat the bed in pretty much every thing they've had responsibility for (for which they weren't able to worm their way out by foisting responsbility onto the states).

The failures aren't LNP vs ALP, it's Federal vs State, with the states having (mostly) done extremely well, and the Feds having screwed up everything they've touched.

 

[Slippery Pete]

GFC downturn 0.01%
covid downturn 40%.
this was stated on ABCRN this morning by a guest talking about the budget.

This is absolutely true, there is simply no comparison between the two.

I wish some people in this thread would stop being blatantly disingenuous.

 

[Carmo]

Are yous sure the Pandemic was worse than the GFC? This is US data, but their unemployment a year later is back to 6%, if you look at the GFC, it took from 2009 to 2014 before it got back to 6%.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

This is absolutely true, there is simply no comparison between the two.

I wish some people in this thread would stop being blatantly disingenuous.

You aren't in any position to be complaining about that.

In any case, some conservative leaning posters at the time (who don't appear to post here anymore) argued that Labor's stimulus was bad because it created too much debt. Scomo's stimulus dwarves Rudd's in that regard. I'm of the opinion that stimulus was necessary both now and then regardless of which party was in power. I just think it's funny how the ideology of fiscal conservatism completely falls to pieces in a crises. That isn't a criticism of the Liberal party though. I'm glad they took that option instead of going down the path of austerity like they did in the UK and Europe. I'll be interested to see how long it lasts though. You would think at some point they'll have to turn the money tap off.

 

[kirky]

Ah..the false equivelency raises its head. The GFC was a drop in the ocean to this pandemic on many many levels. And that the very dimwitted here cant pick that the entire planet has suffered unprecedented damage for nearly the last year and a half on a scale never seen before is par for the course. I guess the government could find a cure cancer and stop world hunger and you woukd still sit there and whine about it

You lack simple comprehension - the Coalition has deficits since they came to power and more than doubled the nations debt in 6 years even before the pandemic.

Face the fact - they aren’t better economic managers. It has been one of the biggest falsehoods - remember they are the only party ever to give us the economic trifecta - double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates and double digit inflation. No ifs, no buts about it. FACT!

 

[Slippery Pete]

Are yous sure the Pandemic was worse than the GFC? This is US data, but their unemployment a year later is back to 6%, if you look at the GFC, it took from 2009 to 2014 before it got back to 6%.

View attachment 1125202

You are talking about two different things, recovery versus the size of the downturn.

The US economy and employment rates were in great shape just prior to the pandemic (thanks to orange man bad). Unlike the GFC, the downturn was owing to the economy simply shutting down. It was not for economic reasons but artificial reasons (economically speaking) - so the scope for recovery is massive the minute you go back to the circumstances of Jan 2020 - ie - the Trump economy.

The issue now is obviously the printing of trillions out of thin air.

 

[kirky]

you'll ban me if i laugh emoji that

And rightly so as I learnt from experience.

When economic facts are presented you have nowhere to run.

The Coalition are believers in debt and deficits as we have projected deficits until 2032! 2032!

 

[Slippery Pete]

Face the fact - they aren’t better economic managers.

Then why’d you vote for them old boy?

 

[kirky]

This is absolutely true, there is simply no comparison between the two.

I wish some people in this thread would stop being blatantly disingenuous.

The difference is the recovery from a pandemic can be quicker as opposed to a financial crisis.

 

[kirky]

Then why’d you vote for them old boy?

Well next election there will be no doubt.

And you say you have no political bias - yeh right. I have a bridge to sell to you.

 

[Slippery Pete]

The difference is the recovery from a pandemic can be quicker as opposed to a financial crisis.

Snap... wow we agree on something.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Well next election there will be no doubt.

And you say you have no political bias - yeh right. I have a bridge to sell to you.

I’ve never said that, I freely admit I have a bias to the right but that is a very different thing from loving the Liberal Party.

 

[Crow till I die]

You lack simple comprehension - the Coalition has deficits since they came to power and more than doubled the nations debt in 6 years even before the pandemic.

Face the fact - they aren’t better economic managers. It has been one of the biggest falsehoods - remember they are the only party ever to give us the economic trifecta - double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates and double digit inflation. No ifs, no buts about it. FACT!

Howard left essentially no debt and money in the bank. Then after the Rudd / Gillard fiasco, in 6 short years the country was pushing 400 billion in debt which was THE root cause of the downward spiral. Then with the recalcitrant senate that blocked almost every possible savings measure (good and bad proposed) in the first years of the Abbott then Turnbull governments, the debt rose. Love to see you try and do your job with both hands tied behind your back

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Howard left essentially no debt and money in the bank. Then after the Rudd / Gillard fiasco, in 6 short years the country was pushing 400 billion in debt which was THE root cause of the downward spiral. Then with the recalcitrant senate that blocked almost every possible savings measure (good and bad proposed) in the first years of the Abbott then Turnbull governments, the debt rose. Love to see you try and do your job with both hands tied behind your back

Partly true until prior to his last election, where in an attempt to remain in power, his promises sent the budget into a structural deficit.

However, agree over the journey, Costello managed the economy well. Pity he didn't want to become PM instead of those who have led the Liberals since...

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

You aren't in any position to be complaining about that.

In any case, some conservative leaning posters at the time (who don't appear to post here anymore) argued that Labor's stimulus was bad because it created too much debt. Scomo's stimulus dwarves Rudd's in that regard. I'm of the opinion that stimulus was necessary both now and then regardless of which party was in power. I just think it's funny how the ideology of fiscal conservatism completely falls to pieces in a crises. That isn't a criticism of the Liberal party though. I'm glad they took that option instead of going down the path of austerity like they did in the UK and Europe. I'll be interested to see how long it lasts though. You would think at some point they'll have to turn the money tap off.

Agreed the stimulus was needed both with the GFC & COVID pandemic.

They key is to ensure spending in the right areas & not waste the $'s. Some of the Labor GFC spending was poorly targeted & wasted from a long-term benefit, but on the whole most was useful.

Interesting with the latest Coalition budget, that it's not just a once-off stimulus spend (eg. infrastructure), but they have also gone into a structural deficit (with the likes of their ongoing Aged Care spend).

 

[Vader]

Howard left essentially no debt and money in the bank. Then after the Rudd / Gillard fiasco, in 6 short years the country was pushing 400 billion in debt which was THE root cause of the downward spiral. Then with the recalcitrant senate that blocked almost every possible savings measure (good and bad proposed) in the first years of the Abbott then Turnbull governments, the debt rose. Love to see you try and do your job with both hands tied behind your back

A feat they achieved by selling off everything that wasn't physically nailed to the ground.

 

[Crow till I die]

And rightly so as I learnt from experience.

When economic facts are presented you have nowhere to run.

The Coalition are believers in debt and deficits as we have projected deficits until 2032! 2032!

Not sure why you are hanging on the Coalition, you said you voted for them

 

[Crow till I die]

Partly true until prior to his last election, where in an attempt to remain in power, his promises sent the budget into a structural deficit.

However, agree of the journey, Costello managed the economy well. Pity he didn't want to become PM instead of those who have led the Liberals since...

He would have been an excellent PM in terms of his management of the country imo

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

He would have been an excellent PM in terms of his management of the country imo

We are better off when we have genuine people leading the country who are also smart/big picture people... which can't be said for all the leaders since unfortunately.

 

[mistylake]

Are yous sure the Pandemic was worse than the GFC? This is US data, but their unemployment a year later is back to 6%, if you look at the GFC, it took from 2009 to 2014 before it got back to 6%.

View attachment 1125202

It’s what was stated. And it is worldwide I’m assuming. Apparently unemployment in Australia is lower now than before Covid.
Does enyone believe we’re actually comparing apples with apples though. I highly doubt it.
Tourism is way way down in the gutter currently especially in places like Cairns where I live. I’m busy here though so kind of depends what we’re looking at.

 

[Slippery Pete]

The amount of money that governments of all stripes waste is beyond any sane analysis.

Even in the latest budget. Throwing money at problems related to cultural and family decline is not going to fix them, it’s going to enable them.

Imagine a government that kept out of your life and spent money making sure things like essential services, emergency services, roads and infrastructure were first class and beyond reproach.

Instead, those things are left to flounder, while governments spend like drunken sailors on misdirected “stimulus” measures that cripple the economy, Ministers and Commissioners for “insert minority grievance here,” and the ******* Paris Agreement.

Meanwhile, emergency services are stretched to capacity, ambulances are ramped outside hospitals, but hey, at least there’s 345M for the anxiety and reproductive health of women who delay pregnancy until 37.

And before you all call me a heartless prick, I am not suggesting we ignore social problems, health problems, poverty or the environment.

It turns out that having a prosperous economy that produces goods and services with relative ease, is actually a highly effective way of being able to deal with inequality, social and environmental disasters, and yes, even a pandemic.

And it turns out that addressing social and cultural problems at the source, instead of throwing money at the symptoms of dysfunction, works pretty well too.

I’m old enough to remember when such government philosophy was referred to as the ”first world.”

 

[mistylake]

You are talking about two different things, recovery versus the size of the downturn.

The US economy and employment rates were in great shape just prior to the pandemic (thanks to orange man bad). Unlike the GFC, the downturn was owing to the economy simply shutting down. It was not for economic reasons but artificial reasons (economically speaking) - so the scope for recovery is massive the minute you go back to the circumstances of Jan 2020 - ie - the Trump economy.

The issue now is obviously the printing of trillions out of thin air.

When you enter into quantative easing or printing money your going to devalue the currency. The asset rich will benefit (home owners) renters and those invested in cash will suffer.

 

[Slippery Pete]

When you enter into quantative easing or printing money your going to devalue the currency. The asset rich will benefit (home owners) renters and those invested in cash will suffer.

Thats why I wanted to ask
kirky

if he has cash reserves and if so, what’s he doing with them*

*Serious question, not a political question