Play Nice Politics # 4 - The madness continues here.....

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Debate away and continue to have strong opinions, but abusing posters ie calling them idiots/stupid etc or trolling posters by laugh liking their posts will not be tolerated going forward.

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[1990crow]

As someone that had covid (1970crow correct me if i have you confused for another), isnt cdc guidance that you have equivelent or even better immunity protection from getting it again than if you were vaccinated?

My understanding is that the anti bodies decrease over time to a point about 12 months later when it's basically zero difference.

 

[Crow till I die]

they can but I'd imagine only under state of emergency powers. They might start getting resistance at some point if people are choosing not to vaccinate butbthey still want to impose controls on everyone.

Just watch the USA. States and corporations are setting vaccine mandates already and it is going to be tought to get a job and use public services without it. France has already set in law restrictions for unvaccinated people.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Just watch the USA. States and corporations are setting vaccine mandates already and it is going to be tought to get a job and use public services without it. France has already set in law restrictions for unvaccinated people.

Likely to happen here too. May not be able to attend a big event unvaccinated...

 

[Crow till I die]

My understanding is that the anti bodies decrease over time to a point about 12 months later when it's basically zero difference.

So its like having the vaccine for 12 months and then you need the vaccine

 

[1990crow]

So its like having the vaccine for 12 months and then you need the vaccine

I guess

 

[Gtowncrow]

Maybe.

If we shift to a policy of accepting COVID cases, and have the Health System capable of dealing with the fall out.

Australia has around 2500 ICU beds, a small percentage with adequete infection control.



We will need to increase this. Even with herd immunity there is a chance ICU capacity can be over ran. The main reason we go into locckdowns is to limit spread and demand on the Health System.


Our ICU demand hits critical levels most flu seasons. Going forward they need to allow for COVID


A lot of countries now living with high vaccination rates and COVID cases also ramped up ICU capacity when they were hit hard last year.


We didn't.


Wouldn't surprise me if ICU capacity is talked about once we get close to these vaccination rates.

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"We didn't"
This is factually incorrect. Misinformation. Beware readers.

 

[Apsaalooke]

Maybe.

If we shift to a policy of accepting COVID cases, and have the Health System capable of dealing with the fall out.

Australia has around 2500 ICU beds, a small percentage with adequete infection control.



We will need to increase this. Even with herd immunity there is a chance ICU capacity can be over ran. The main reason we go into locckdowns is to limit spread and demand on the Health System.


Our ICU demand hits critical levels most flu seasons. Going forward they need to allow for COVID


A lot of countries now living with high vaccination rates and COVID cases also ramped up ICU capacity when they were hit hard last year.


We didn't.


Wouldn't surprise me if ICU capacity is talked about once we get close to these vaccination rates.

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While we haven't increased actual ICU beds, as it turned out there was no need to do so due to Australian Covid containment policies have largely worked, it's likely that we have the capacity to triple ICU capacity if the need arises by co-opting and converting beds for ICU use by cancelling elective surgery and other ways. Extra staff and ventilators would also be needed and this is more difficult but probably achievable in a crisis, given the number of ventilators available in general operating theatres and using anaesthetists and anaesthetic nurses as extra manpower.

 

[Geoffa32]

While we haven't increased actual ICU beds, as it turned out there was no need to do so due to Australian Covid containment policies have largely worked, it's likely that we have the capacity to triple ICU capacity if the need arises by co-opting and converting beds for ICU use by cancelling elective surgery and other ways. Extra staff and ventilators would also be needed and this is more difficult but probably achievable in a crisis, given the number of ventilators available in general operating theatres and using anaesthetists and anaesthetic nurses as extra manpower.

Yes, shutdown parts of the health system, mainly elective surgeries, to care for COVID patients. This is why we go into lockdowns to avoid such disruptions.
.

We didn't increase our baseline ICU capacity. Other nations did, due to being over ran.

True, we didn't need to. Our lockdowns worked.

I am just suggesting the next goalpost shift.

Honest can't see Australia avoiding lockdowns for another year. Even when we reach 80 to 90% vaccinations.


Hopefully I am wrong.

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[Slippery Pete]

The fact it has taken an eternity to come up with plan & it has been agreed by national cabinet, i would say it's locked in.

After everything that’s happened, you’re still taking as Gospel what Morrison and the state premiers are serving up to you. You poor sap.

Good to see this has finally been communicated to the Australian public... so this should encourage everyone to get vaccinated, so we can open up as normal on an ongoing basis.

Also, puts to bead the ridiculous conspiracy theories on here by some that lockdowns would continue even after vaccination. Let's see if they offer up that they were wrong.

Wow, you really are something else.

Let’s have a look at what you’ve said about when lockdowns/restrictions should end.

No, all the vulnerable are not yet vaccinated!Once they are, we reopen.

Need to get everyone vulnerable vaccinated asap so we don't need to worry about lockdowns...

Singapore have opened up with around 30% with 1 vaccination & around 30% fully vaccinated. Once all vulnerable Australians are vaccinated or have had an opportunity to be vaccinated, we too should follow the Singapore approach.

Once all vulnerable people have been vaccinated ot have had the opportunity to be vaccinated, we should be opening things up.

A more infectious but less deadly strain would be ideal for spreading herd immunity, once the vulnerable are vaccinated.

The key is how many over 60 & vulnerable are fully vaccinated

Once all vulnerable people are fully vaccinated & the chances of them dying from Covid are reduced to near zero, then there is no reason why we can't relax restrictions, as the risk of death is minimal.

Yes, we need to come to live with covid, which is why we need everyone vulnerable vaccinated asap.

Once all the vulnerable people are vaccinated, catching covid should not be a major issue.

Once this group are vaccinated, the risk of death will be reduced & restrictions should be relaxed.

I would be surprised if I'm wrong.

You already are.

And now, after our esteemed “National Cabinet” tell you exactly what to think…

Everyone just needs to get vaccinated now....

LOL.

You are a joke.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

After everything that’s happened, you’re still taking as Gospel what Morrison and the state premiers are serving up to you. You poor sap.



Wow, you really are something else.

Let’s have a look at what you’ve said about when lockdowns/restrictions should end.























You already are.

And now, after our esteemed “National Cabinet” tell you exactly what to think…



LOL.

You are a joke.

You are mentally disturbed!

Been vaccinated yet?

 

[Slippery Pete]

You are mentally disturbed!

Brave response as usual. Good to see you’re standing behind the months and months of posts you made. You’ve been proven to be nothing more than a shill.

Been vaccinated yet?

You know full well the answer, because I answered it the other day.

You are a piece of work.

 

[1970crow]

Just watch the USA. States and corporations are setting vaccine mandates already and it is going to be tought to get a job and use public services without it. France has already set in law restrictions for unvaccinated people.

restrictions for unvaccinated is a step too far for me. But if it's a choice between that and restrictions because of the unvaccinated, then vaccine passports it is. I'm not suffering through any form of restrictions purely to keep people safe from their personal choice regarding vaccines. Choose not to vaccinate, choose the consequential risks and I won't shed a tear for any of those dimwits that are lost along the way.

 

[1970crow]

So its like having the vaccine for 12 months and then you need the vaccine

Can't think of any reason it wouldn't be near identical to flu vaccination in that sense.

 

[kirky]

Agree. But they led the attack.

Wow!

 

[kirky]

restrictions for unvaccinated is a step too far for me. But if it's a choice between that and restrictions because of the unvaccinated, then vaccine passports it is. I'm not suffering through any form of restrictions purely to keep people safe from their personal choice regarding vaccines. Choose not to vaccinate, choose the consequential risks and I won't shed a tear for any of those dimwits that are lost along the way.

My take for what it is worth (probably not much) - if you are unvaccinated (by personal choice and not medical reasons) and say there is one bed left in an emergency department - two ambulances come in, one with a heart attack victim, the other Covid-19. Who does the bed go to? The heart attack victim.

 

[Crow till I die]

restrictions for unvaccinated is a step too far for me. But if it's a choice between that and restrictions because of the unvaccinated, then vaccine passports it is. I'm not suffering through any form of restrictions purely to keep people safe from their personal choice regarding vaccines. Choose not to vaccinate, choose the consequential risks and I won't shed a tear for any of those dimwits that are lost along the way.

I tend to agree however the caveat i have is my kids..one is mid teens the other is a teen at the end of the year. I know kids are a low risk but it does not bear thinking if one got very sick from covid..but I want to also be damn sure the vaccine is truly safe for them to take before I essentially force them to have to have it.

I have had my first Pfizer and my wife is due to in mid august. It is the kids dilemma for us atm

 

[Slippery Pete]

I tend to agree however the caveat i have is my kids..one is mid teens the other is a teen at the end of the year. I know kids are a low risk but it does not bear thinking if one got very sick from covid..but I want to also be damn sure the vaccine is truly safe for them to take before I essentially force them to have to have it.

I have had my first Pfizer and my wife is due to in mid august. It is the kids dilemma for us atm

This is obviously a huge and very personal decision for you guys so it goes without saying this is not advice, it’s just a statement of fact:

Not one Australian 0-19 has died of Covid.

As I’ve said many times on this forum, I have absolutely zero problem with vaccinations, I’ve had many of them both as a child and an adult.

But I am yet to see a compelling argument for vaccinating children against Covid, other than “protect the elderly.”

Maybe more information or different circumstances will emerge in the future that make the argument more compelling, but at the moment, that to me is not a good enough reason to rush to mass vaccinate children who are at negligible risk.

Anybody who thinks it is has their priorities backwards.

 

[FR0GGY]

My take for what it is worth (probably not much) - if you are unvaccinated (by personal choice and not medical reasons) and say there is one bed left in an emergency department - two ambulances come in, one with a heart attack victim, the other Covid-19. Who does the bed go to? The heart attack victim.

What if the heart attack victim is a heavy smoker?

 

[Slippery Pete]

What if the heart attack victim is a heavy smoker?

He won’t reply to that.

 

[Crow till I die]

This is obviously a huge and very personal decision for you guys so it goes without saying this is not advice, it’s just a statement of fact:

Not one Australian 0-19 has died of Covid.

As I’ve said many times on this forum, I have absolutely zero problem with vaccinations, I’ve had many of them both as a child and an adult.

But I am yet to see a compelling argument for vaccinating children against Covid, other than “protect the elderly.”

Maybe more information or different circumstances will emerge in the future that make the argument more compelling, but at the moment, that to me is not a good enough reason to rush to mass vaccinate children who are at negligible risk.

Anybody who thinks it is has their priorities backwards.

We understand that. Our dilemma is overseas travel and possible relocation overseas for work to live at some point next year and the place it could be has vast covid case numbers unlike here. We just want to wait longer for more vaccine data on how it works with kids before finalising a decision for them to be vaccinated

 

[fortunatecrow]

A lot of countries now living with high vaccination rates and COVID cases also ramped up ICU capacity when they were hit hard last year.

We didn't.

Apologies if you were referring to SA, I don't know what happened there, but increasing ICU is the one thing the Vic Government did do...

As world watched New York and Milan, Victoria tripled ICU capacity to avoid COVID nightmare By Paul Sakkal July 17, 2021 — 11.55pm

The number of ICU beds in Victoria has risen threefold since the onset of the pandemic, with the state’s health system now well-equipped to withstand any wave of COVID-19 cases.

 

[1970crow]

My take for what it is worth (probably not much) - if you are unvaccinated (by personal choice and not medical reasons) and say there is one bed left in an emergency department - two ambulances come in, one with a heart attack victim, the other Covid-19. Who does the bed go to? The heart attack victim.

The bed goes to the most in need regardless of what they're presenting with. The heart attack victim might have significantly contributed to their affliction, it just can't work that way. It's dealt with at a society level. Once the defined % of people have had the opportunity to vaccinate, then that's the end of not only lockdowns, but masks, square metre rules, vertical consumption and any other form of control.

 

[1970crow]

I tend to agree however the caveat i have is my kids..one is mid teens the other is a teen at the end of the year. I know kids are a low risk but it does not bear thinking if one got very sick from covid..but I want to also be damn sure the vaccine is truly safe for them to take before I essentially force them to have to have it.

I have had my first Pfizer and my wife is due to in mid august. It is the kids dilemma for us atm

Why can't kids get vaccinated, are they at more risk? I thought they are just on the back burner as their risks of even catching, let alone dying of covid are incredibly negligible. I'm not wearing a mask, ruining hospitality businesses etc etc because people don't want to immunise their kids. Do or don't, I don't care either way, but that's your and their risk, not my cross to bear.

 

[Geoffa32]

Apologies if you were referring to SA, I don't know what happened there, but increasing ICU is the one thing the Vic Government did do...

As world watched New York and Milan, Victoria tripled ICU capacity to avoid COVID nightmare By Paul Sakkal July 17, 2021 — 11.55pm

The number of ICU beds in Victoria has risen threefold since the onset of the pandemic, with the state’s health system now well-equipped to withstand any wave of COVID-19 cases.

I didn't know this.

Big tick for Victoria.



The 2400 baseline cap in ICU and 5000 to 35000 model projection in demand had COVID took hold here is a key reason for our lockdowns.


There is some thought that even with vaccinations hitting target percentages the demand can still impact baseline ICU levels. Statistically, like the seasonal flu, there will still be critically ill patients even when herd immunity is achieved.

As I said earlier, most flu seasons our ICU capability is stretched.

COVID will have a similar impact and is here to stay.



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[fortunatecrow]

The messaging by some leaders, including some CMO's has been atrocious.

Agree. And the recent shift to now encourage AZ after all, because there is an outbreak and so the risks have changed, is *not* (edit to add: *not* - the whole point of my post!) very smart because it's pretty easy for people to conclude that the reverse must also be true.